Guns and the Gabrielle Giffords shooting.

[SouthtownKid]

One need only a cursory overview of American history after 1776 to see the height of American hypocrisy through actions completely at odds with our ideals.

fixed.

 

[Lagduf]

fixed.

Point noted, but I disagree. We didn't become a country until 1788 anyway so your date needs adjustment.

I feel that during the post war era we should have "known better" but...ultimately it was just the same shit on a different day. Besides, "height of" implies a peak.

 

[Lagduf]

I'm told Mexico has a single firearms store open to the public.

 

[smokehouse]

The real tragedy of that recent school shooting is that it could have been prevented if more children had brought guns to school.

When will those nuts led by Barack Hussein Obama learn?

Sometimes I don't know wether to laugh or cry at your posts. I have great respect for you but often, your sarcasm can easily be taken either way (perhaps that denotes intelligence on your part...or you just suck as sarcasm...I'm not sure).

I'm going to reply as if you are attacking the "the only way to fight guns is with guns" statement.

The situation in question is unavoidable...period. A kid illegally took a firearm (more than likely an unregistered firearm) to school. No amount of gun laws would have prevented that. let's say the gun was registered...and that we outlawed guns...it wouldn't have happened. Now, on the other hand...many of the people that would bring a gun to school have a black market firearm...unlike a registered gun, an unregistered gun (like cocaine or heroin) is going to find its way in the hands of the wrong person no matter what you do.

You don't get it because you're not armed and thus obviously a communist sympathizer.

Those children could've returned fire like a rapper's posse. It would've worked to perfection.

This one simply is bad sarcasm...

Honestly, while I know this was a part of a rhetorical device that had little impact on your overall argument, this is the only part of your post that I found a bit puzzling.

What is "fancy" health care?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_insurance_plan

Taxing someone on the cost of their health care because it's too costly...that's putting the word "need" on something like healthcare. You don't really need that expensive of a plan...therefore we're going to tax you on it. Not everyone can afford it so guess what, we're going to make you pay for it.

Talk to people from any other developed nation. Find people who have never been to the US. Their number one concern about visiting/living in the US time and time again is our gun laws. They say, "Don't Americans have guns?" "People get shot in America," "Don't people carry around guns everywhere?" So some people (ignorant as they may be) are scared just to come here. They think we are clinging to barbaric ways. That's the meat of my only point. I guess people are content with that here.

What do I care about what other people think? (especially foreigners who get info on us from the TV, internet or a news paper...like that really paints a true and honest picture of us) Again...letting other people's opinions on things limit what I do in my life is absurd.

I understand that comments like that can lead to "Then why don't you rape, murder and rob banks...its society's opinion that they are wrong." But I fully feel you are intelligent enough to get what I am saying. I currently am a law abiding citizen...I have firearms legally and I follow every rule to a "T". As much as I hate to say it...if firearms become illegal...I'll turn them in. What some uppity European person feel about my choice to own a firearm is irrelevant...and yes, I said uppity. One thing I know is that through Caterpillar...I've had the displeasure of working with many European people...I've found many to be outspoken, opinionated assholes who enjoy picking apart my way of life with a fine comb for absolutely no reason. I could damn near write a book on my experiences with that...I lost count of the time I've hear the conversation intro "Well, you Americans bla, bla, bla" in a condescending tone...

I just have to say I'm fucking sick of having people's pointless opinions vomited in my face everywhere I turn. PETA telling me I'm a fucking monster for eating a hamburger, Green Peace telling me I'm destroying the earth because I owned a sports car that didn't get 50+ mpg, anti-gun advocates telling me I'm a shitty parent because I have a firearm in the house, religious nuts telling me I'm a sinner because I don't go to church and because I'm pro choice...

For fucks sake...I don't go everywhere shitting my opinions on people...why in the hell do I have to subjected to that?

That's right. We're better than them. We know a better way, even though it clearly isn't. That's called American exceptionalism. I don't see anything wrong with adopting something that works from another land. It's not the 1700's anymore. We are just being stubborn, held back by the under-educated and religious fundamentalists.

If you're talking about firearms I'll address what you say (if not than I'm sorry).

It may not be the 1700's anymore but there is gun violence...this hasn't changed. Evolution, progression, education, whatever hasn't changed a fucking thing. People have been killing each other as long as they have had hands to do it with. Like illegal drugs that are readily available...you ban guns and criminals will still find a way to get them. We Americans have a violent culture...look at our TV, out music, our movies...this has been a country built on the backs of dead bodies. We are simply not culturally the same as many european countries. We, as a people, are more violent. I'm not saying you and I are...I'm saying Americans in general are. Ban guns and you simply remove them from the law abiding citizens...that's all. Thugs will still kill each other, people will still kill their wives/girlfriends/etc and there will still be suicides.

 

[Neo Alec]

Foreigners are ignorant!

What they would find is that the areas they may want to visit generally have some of the tightest arms control laws in the country.

And that's a good thing.

What do I care about what other people think? (especially foreigners who get info on us from the TV, internet or a news paper...like that really paints a true and honest picture of us) Again...letting other people's opinions on things limit what I do in my life is absurd.

And that's the problem with the American attitudes on some issues. We can be leaders in the world on some policies, but we also have to be willing to adopt what's working elsewhere.

I think there's nothing wrong with shooting guns at a gun range where it's under control by certified experts on gun safety. I've never been to one of those, but it's fine with me and I wouldn't mind trying it. What we shouldn't have is guns that are made for nothing but killing people in the hands of civilians. I can see an argument for hunting rifles and handguns as personal protection, but not automatic, mutli-round weapons. My argument is not about whether banning guns will work or not, it simply asks why we have to be different.

Thanks for your reply, smokehouse. I respect your argument and I was interested to see it.

 

[Lagduf]

And that's a good thing.

I disagree but you already knew that.

And that's a good thing.


And that's the problem with the American attitudes on some issues. We can be leaders in the world on some policies, but we also have to be willing to adopt what's working elsewhere.

I think there's nothing wrong with shooting guns at a gun range where it's under control by certified experts on gun safety. I've never been to one of those, but it's fine with me and I wouldn't mind trying it. What we shouldn't have is guns that are made for nothing but killing people in the hands of civilians. I can see an argument for hunting rifles and handguns as personal protection, but not automatic, mutli-round weapons. My argument is not about whether banning guns will work or not, it simply asks why we have to be different.

Thanks for your reply, smokehouse. I respect your argument and I was interested to see it.

What do you mean by "automatic, multi-round" weapons?

Automatic weapons, such as Machine Guns (legal term) are Title II firearms and are very tightly regulated. Are you familiar with the National Firearms Act of 1934? You don't legally own a machine gun in this country if you don't walk the straight and narrow.

As of 1986 the registry of Machine Guns closed and no new Machine Guns can be manufactured by civilians. The supply of legally obtainable automatic weapons in this country is finite. While new MGs cannot be registered, existing MGs can be transferred to civilians assuming they meet all the requirements for owning such a weapon.

Obviously I'm for re-opening the registry

 

[SML]

I think there's nothing wrong with shooting guns at a gun range where it's under control by certified experts on gun safety. I've never been to one of those, but it's fine with me and I wouldn't mind trying it. What we shouldn't have is guns that are made for nothing but killing people in the hands of civilians. I can see an argument for hunting rifles and handguns as personal protection, but not automatic, mutli-round weapons..

I think there's nothing wrong with a population being as well armed (in sum) as the body that means to govern it.

In case I'm being unclear, I mean specifically so that the population may resist or overthrow the governing body with force of arms.

But I don't own a gun myself and don't let the issue define my day to day life, nor do I adopt that position out of the idea that if the U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. does it, it must be right.

Notice my location. Notice that my flag is that of a country with repressive gun control. I'm not a jingoist.

 

[Lagduf]

Guns in America!

 

[aria]

okay, now that's a quality post

 

[smokehouse]

And that's the problem with the American attitudes on some issues. We can be leaders in the world on some policies, but we also have to be willing to adopt what's working elsewhere.

The factor that constantly mucks that up is cultural differences. Policies are not one size fits all. As much as Americans are bull-headed...European people are equally as bad. We are stuck in our ways...they think they're 100% correct...a prime example of an immovable object-vs-unstoppable force.

I think there's nothing wrong with shooting guns at a gun range where it's under control by certified experts on gun safety. I've never been to one of those, but it's fine with me and I wouldn't mind trying it. What we shouldn't have is guns that are made for nothing but killing people in the hands of civilians. I can see an argument for hunting rifles and handguns as personal protection, but not automatic, mutli-round weapons. My argument is not about whether banning guns will work or not, it simply asks why we have to be different.

The issue with this is the purpose argument. Any gun is made for "killing people"...from a 5 round .22LR to a fully automatic, pre ban .223 M16...all will kill just the same. once you start to draw lines opinions rather than facts come into play and we're back to the oppression issue...

It's easier to use facts. Facts like "have you committed a crime with a gun? No? Then here you go, enjoy." rather than opinions like "Well....you could kill someone with this gun so now it's banned..."




BTW, You know what kills more people that guns in the country?

Cars.

We license anyone that's 16 to operate something that kills countless thousands each year without thought. Think of it this way...how many people do you know that were killed in an automotive accident? How many by firearms?

I still like to believe that "innocent until proven guilty" should be a way of life. If I want a fully automatic pre ban AK-47...why can't I have it? I have no violent background...I do not have a criminal record...if I want to "rat-tat-tat" 7.62x39 until the cows come home why can't I?

You can reply with "Well...its not your use of the firearm...that AK can be stolen..."

So can my car.

My AK would be in a safe...my car sits outside, fully unprotected at all times...my daughter...my neighbor...anyone can take it and kill someone with it with ease yet no one brings this up. Vehicular identification systems are yet to be used/invented...all you need is a key or hot-wiring skills and you can steal a 4000lb killing machine that is proven to kill more than firearms ever will.


No...guns are an easy target. Like I said before...no one needs a fully automatic weapon (which are illegal in the state i live in BTW and even if they weren't...are costly as hell to get)...but no one needs a 500 horsepower car...or the ability to get drunk and drive that car...or the ability ot commit a crime in that car...or the ability to commit suicide in that car...

 

[Lagduf]

I need an AK to fight the government

 

[galfordo]

Foreigners are ignorant!

What they would find is that the areas they may want to visit generally have some of the tightest arms control laws in the country.

and strangely enough, these areas are also some of the most dangerous in the country

 

[Neo Alec]

Don't ask me to use proper firearm terminology. I'm no expert, but like most East/West coast urban liberal hippies, I know enough for the point to still be perfectly valid. I can see we're at the classic impass here.

The factor that constantly mucks that up is cultural differences. Policies are not one size fits all. As much as Americans are bull-headed...European people are equally as bad. We are stuck in our ways...they think they're 100% correct...a prime example of an immovable object-vs-unstoppable force.

I could be way off, but I think the 'cultural differences' argument is a red herring here. Obviously there are going to be cultural differences, but that doesn't render the policies incompatible.

 

[galfordo]

Don't ask me to use proper firearm terminology. I'm no expert, but like most East/West coast urban liberal hippies, I know enough for the point to still be perfectly valid.

we would never dream of insisting that someone arguing a point become knowledgeable about the context

that would take all the fun out of it, and is all but unheard of in american politics

 

[Lagduf]

Don't ask me to use proper firearm terminology. I'm no expert, but like most East/West coast urban liberal hippies, I know enough for the point to still be perfectly valid. I can see we're at the classic impass here.

What's an "automatic, multi-round" weapon?

 

[Lagduf]

I love that this is completely legal in CA:

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct550.aspx

But we have an "Assault Weapons" ban.

Thank Crom they didn't ban crew served support weapons.

PS: I'm taking donations that will go towards the purchase of one of these fine historical pieces.

PPS: That would look great over my fireplace.

 

[Neo Alec]

What's an "automatic, multi-round" weapon?

You know, guns and ammo that can 'shoot up' a place. Like that 31-round clip the Tuscon guy bought at Wal-Mart. This argument is getting stupid. Leave me alone and let some other left-leaning granola-eating hippie speak for us.

 

[Lagduf]

You know, guns and ammo that can 'shoot up' a place. Like that 31-round clip the Tuscon guy bought at Wal-Mart. This argument is getting stupid. Leave me alone and let some other left-leaning granola-eating hippie speak for us.

No, I didn't know which is why I asked because you stated you both knew what you were talking about and didn't know what you were talking about.

Any gun can shoot up a place.

An automatic weapon is one where you pull the trigger and more than one bullet comes out after the other. These are machine guns and are strictly regulated.

Your "automatic, multi round" gun is most likely semi-automatic handgun.

It was a 33 round magazine. A clip is something entirely different.

Clip and magazine are not interchangeable. They are used interchangeably by those who know nothing of firearms though (like the media!)

When I get an M1 Garand I'll make a youtube video dedicated to you to highlight the differences.

 

[Lagduf]

Neo-Alec will probably love the fact that I legally own an "automatic, multi-round" handgun that has no serial number or other identifying marks.

 

[Neo Alec]

Thanks I'll look forward to that.

 

[galfordo]

You know, guns and ammo that can 'shoot up' a place.

holy shit dude, you don't belong within 100 yds. of a conversation on firearms

lol "shoot up a place"

 

[Lagduf]

I always wonder why these shooters never use rifles. Seems like it would be more effective.

Then again, the shooters are generally crazy so they probably don't think things through.

Anyway, realistically I don't think any gun control bills are going to make any headway or be seriously considered in either house of congress.

 

[Neo Alec]

holy shit dude, you don't belong within 100 yds. of a conversation on firearms

lol "shoot up a place"

You need to lighten the hell up, dude. First the earlier post today, and now this. Of course I used the term "shoot up" in jest, and I'm glad it at least made you lol. Heaven forbid anyone enjoys this discussion.

*edit* I just used the term "Japanese white trash" in another thread and it looked like shit italicized so I de-talicized it.

 

[galfordo]

You need to lighten the hell up, dude. First the earlier post today, and now this. Of course I used the term "shoot up" in jest, and I'm glad it at least made you lol. Heaven forbid anyone enjoys this discussion.

*edit* I just used the term "Japanese white trash" in another thread and it looked like shit italicized so I de-talicized it.

i'm totally light bro, keep those lols a comin'

 

[SonGohan]

it looked like shit

Listen man, let's stop with all the hyperbolic statements. The discussion would be much more logical if you said "I disliked the way it looked." You know, for netiquette and all...