Archive this post, and on this site, where people might see it

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1143966&postcount=232

And do a little write-up explaining how ROM's are today's scapegoat for a lack of education on the subject. Seems to be too much confusion on the part of people who will believe whatever version of history they etch-a-sketch themselves, or have done for them by others who are equally uninformed, that ROM's are the ultimate evil of the world and are solely responsible for SNK's undoing, which began what, about 10 years ago? with the wrong business decisions.

just a few weeks ago,
i asked a friend to translate this :

1

and this :

2

its a great interview,i think...

the guy worked on baseball stars 2,top hunter and 2020 super baseball

and then on the hyper neo 64

well,they ask him about the decision to quit supporting the mvs hardware after samu 0 special

and he replies :

2 reasons

1
hardware was getting old

2
bootlegs / emulators

Fran said:

just a few weeks ago,
i asked a friend to translate this :

1

and this :

2

its a great interview,i think...

the guy worked on baseball stars 2,top hunter and 2020 super baseball

and then on the hyper neo 64

well,they ask him about the decision to quit supporting the mvs hardware after samu 0 special

and he replies :

2 reasons

1
hardware was getting old

2
bootlegs / emulators

Click to expand...

Interesting counterpoint.

At least in my opinion, roms are not the only cause of the agony/death of the Neo, but they sure helped it. And I'm talking about the arcade market (the only one that matters and where the money came from). Why would people put coins on the arcade, if they can have the same thing for free at home? You can play the rom of every new Neo game within a month or 2 after its release.
Of course there are several other reasons, like bootlegs, bad policy, and the fall of the arcade market in favour of home consoles and cybercafes.

I still don't get it.

People cannot blame roms for the bad financial situation SNK had. PERIOD.

SNK was already in very bad health back in 97. Got worse in 98 and forth

The first Neo Geo emulators ( were a piece of shit btw back then ) without sound and no support for every rom appeared like somewhat middle of 98 and were still running through MS-Dos.

Not untill Mame32 had support for Sound on Neo Geo roms they had success.

SNK was already in the way of bankrupcy, the Hyper64 was where they lost the shitloads of cash they earned in the golden days, so anyone who tries to use emulation as an excuse for the end of days of SNK ( even if it's the former president saying it ) is only hidding the fact that SNK had no capacity to face their mistakes of the past. The Neo Pocket was profiteable ? No. The Arcade market was profiteable ? Not as it once was and supposed to be. Did the Neo Geo Home Market was profiteable enough to remain making production of titles for it ?? Don't think so.

Did roms harmed SNK ? Yes, but not as people try to pass them of.

Ever heard the word "minority" ?

The biggest issue is bootlegging, the real money for SNK was in the MVS market, the NGH is more like a way to keep the fanscene alive.

With the MVS bootlegs, SNK was forced to reduce the price of the kits weeks after the initial release dates and lowering the price by hundreds.

but this is an unavoidable situation since the older the hardware gets, more chances of it being bootlegged & emulated.

I have the SVC roms and spent about 30 dollars in the arcade on it. I mean WTF>

Fran said:

1
hardware was getting old

2
bootlegs / emulators

Click to expand...

I never said ROM's did not help the cause (edit again: and by that I mostly meant dumping ROM's onto bootleg carts) but even here, he apparently does not lament how all the bootleggers brought down the mighty SNK, since their own lack of business savvy had been doing them far more detriment and far longer. But you won't find a lot of company men admitting that openly.

Towards the end bootleg versions of even the newest games would be flooding the markets in no time flat which was really very sad and surely must have helped bring about the ultimate abandonment of the MVS yet when we step back in time we see that SNK itself shot itself in the foot. With rapid fire on.

Most people will over-praise something once it is gone, quietly sweeping its shortcomings under the carpet to remember what was good about it. But what is the point if one is thus remembering only a figment of one's imagination and not what actually was? SNK should always be known for everything it did. Its accomplishments and its repeated displays of idiocy included.

Neo Bomber Man said:

I never said ROM's did not help the cause but even here, he apparently does not lament how all the bootleggers brought down the mighty SNK, since their own lack of business savvy had been doing them far more detriment and far longer. But you won't find a lot of company men admitting that openly.

Towards the end bootleg versions of even the newest games would be flooding the markets in no time flat which was really very sad and surely must have helped bring about the ultimate abandonment of the MVS yet when we step back in time we see that SNK itself shot itself in the foot. With rapid fire on.

Most people will over-praise something once it is gone, quietly sweeping its shortcomings under the carpet to remember what was good about it. But what is the point if one is thus remembering only a figment of one's imagination and not what actually was? SNK should always be known for everything it did. Its accomplishments and its repeated displays of idiocy included.

Click to expand...

ROMS are not what killed SNK.

Leaving beta carts out where bootleggers can dump them out on location for the right price, Not getting better encryption, employees who possibly leaked code, using the same hardware for 12 years, bad business decisions, 2 failed systems, zero market savvy and foresight, and the death of the arcade are what killed it.

VanillaThunder said:

ROMS are not what killed SNK.

Leaving beta carts out where bootleggers can dump them out on location for the right price, Not getting better encryption, employees who possibly leaked code, using the same hardware for 12 years, bad business decisions, 2 failed systems, zero market savvy and foresight, and the death of the arcade are what killed it.

Click to expand...

Roms did help as well.
Please don't defend roms.

xtoo_short20x said:

Roms did help as well.
Please don't defend roms.

Click to expand...

Not nearly as much as advertised... really.


SNK was business stupid, plain and simple. That's what it boils down to.

ROMS never EVER syphoned as much money from them as bootlegging. It's not even close. Leaving games out to be dumped or not securing code properly was the biggest weight around their ankles.

If you want proof of that... look at how many boots of their most popular games are out there.

Roms are like Porn. A *lot* of people have em... no one likes to admit it to anyone else here... but they're both POPULAR for a reason.

I'm not defending them because I quite frankly don't need or find a reason to defend them. My stance is as it always has been. As long as the software isn't current and it isn't stealing money from the company.. it's cool with me.

Do you really think SNKP is being killed right now because people are emulating KOF96 onine?

The only people that has an effect on are the collectors and resellers.

If people had principles and respect for the company they SUPPOSELY
love, they wouldn't use roms in the first place.

VanillaThunder said:

Not nearly as much as advertised... really.


SNK was business stupid, plain and simple. That's what it boils down to.

ROMS never EVER syphoned as much money from them as bootlegging. It's not even close. Leaving games out to be dumped or not securing code properly was the biggest weight around their ankles.

If you want proof of that... look at how many boots of their most popular games are out there.

Roms are like Porn. A *lot* of people have em... no one likes to admit it to anyone else here... but they're both POPULAR for a reason.

I'm not defending them because I quite frankly don't need or find a reason to defend them. My stance is as it always has been. As long as the software isn't current and it isn't stealing money from the company.. it's cool with me.

Do you really think SNKP is being killed right now because people are emulating KOF96 onine?

The only people that has an effect on are the collectors and resellers.

Click to expand...

xtoo_short20x said:

If people had principles and respect for the company they SUPPOSELY
love, they wouldn't use roms in the first place.

Click to expand...

That argument makes no sense to me.

How is playing a 10 year old game showing your disrespect for a company?


Most people can't even find an MVS with a newer release on it within 100 miles of them.

VanillaThunder said:

That argument makes no sense to me.

How is playing a 10 year old game showing your disrespect for a company?


Most people can't even find an MVS with a newer release on it within 100 miles of them.

Click to expand...

Because you can't be sure you're playing the game the way it was meant to be seen. There are still going to be people who end up with glitches in the emulation or with horrible PC controllers. Both of these things can and have led people to diss games. I've been involved in such arguments myself. Some guy complained to me that MS has no music on bosses, for example. It was right on this site a long time ago. If only I had the patience to look him up. You also have a lot of people who simply can't respect a game they got for free in a bulk rom package. Without proper preparedness and certain gaming expectations, it's not even possible to like the Neo-Geo at all.

I don't think roms are the worst injustice ever, but they certainly do lead some people to draw unfair conclusions about the games we love... Even people who might potentially love the games under the right circumstances.

VanillaThunder said:

That argument makes no sense to me.

How is playing a 10 year old game showing your disrespect for a company?


Most people can't even find an MVS with a newer release on it within 100 miles of them.

Click to expand...

Ok, emulation is great, it allows people to play older games they can't afford
by stealing them.

Rom users are people who would have most likely NEVAR bought the original game to begin with. Period.


If you think anything different, than you are sadly mistaken.

They might have at most dropped a couple quarters in an arcade machine, but thats about it...and that might be stretching it.


We got some people on this board that are hardcore delusional over this. You can hate on RomZ and people all you like...but ya gotta realize these people would never most likely have bought the original anyways.

And don't even start that "RomZ are just like MP3" shit, either. Two totally different issues with different circumstances.

At least here, the public that play roms are totally apart form the public that crowd the arcades. They are the same people that buy bootlegs and download PS2 games, and only played at arcades when was like 7 years old, when their parents take him there. Roms didn't damaged SNK profits at all here.

Lots of that people never played SNK games before, and discovered the system through the emulation itself.

The main problem was (is) the bootleging of the MVS carts.

Although I played SNK games at the arcades, I enjoyed the roms, cause the older games where no longer avaliable anywhere, and I couldn't imagined myself investing all that pile of money to buy the real thing - that is an import and rare here.

You guys would be surprised in see how the emu scene is small compared to the general videogame userbase.

And the arce scene was in a countdown even before this, not because teh 'I cam play it at the emu' BS, but because the newer videogames and the high cost/low profit of the arcade setups.

broken said:

Rom users are people who would have most likely NEVAR bought the original game to begin with. Period.

Click to expand...

This is the best point I believe. 99% of rom users aren't doing it because its better than a 300 dollar homecart, they just want to play the game period and wouldn't think of dropping 300 bucks on it in the first place. If anything emulation gets people into systems that they would have never thought of buying before. I bet a fair amount of people have come to this site after playing some roms, interested in learning more.

Plus emulation doesn't steal from the parent company with the exception of new releases. Only from the 2nd hand market.

they would never bought but for sure they could have played it at an arcade.

less money for the arcade operators subsequently less money for SNK.

broken said:

Rom users are people who would have most likely NEVAR bought the original game to begin with. Period.

Click to expand...

That's only partly true.

The majority of hardcore fighting fans that I play online with (yes... via Emulation) are also very dedicated arcade goers. Many of these people dump more money in quarters than anybody would ever spend on a homecart or even in some cases a brand-new MVS kit.

xtoo_short20x said:

Ok, emulation is great, it allows people to play older games they can't afford
by stealing them.

Click to expand...

What do you care if they can or can't afford them... much less are stealing them for?

Are you the great abitratrator of morality? Are you the criminal justice system? Who are you to judge?

This is just typical of the elitist "I'm 1337 because I can afford to collect and you can't" classic and retro gaming community.

Besides the fact it pisses you off that you paid all that $$$ for a game and these people haven't... you have almost no argument.

My point.. I got into Neo because of ROMS. I collect all formats now, religiously pump quarters into the MVS machines and arcades I go to and I support the new releases. I've always dumped money in arcades and/or collected Coin-Op. I'll even go so far as to I've been collecting and discussing coin-op games and video games in general for longer than people have been aware of the internet and before most people here bought a Neo.

I'd even venture to say that I've dumped more money into SNK's coffers and the coffers of their supporters than most. I also use ROMS.

A *lot* of ROMS users that I know of either A) Wouldn't pay for a game anyways and regard the neo as "another rom" and barely play it B) Are hardcore neo fans and collectors and find it easier to lug a CPU unit around or use because of the value of their carts or ease of use C) Arcade nuts who dump tons of money into machines and practice for competition either over the net because there's no one regular to play with.

2 out of those 3 dump money on SNKP.... more than a LOT of people do.

That all being said, once again.. your argument that ROMS killed playmore, that they're the scourge of the neo don't hold up. It comes down to your statement of "they can't afford to play so they shouldn't".

You know who else I've heard on that rant before?

Check out this site....

Link

The only difference is you're not hated as much.

VanillaThunder said:

The only difference is you're not hated as much, yet.

Click to expand...

fixed that for you

VanillaThunder said:

Besides the fact it pisses you off that you paid all that $$$ for a game and these people haven't... you have almost no argument.

Click to expand...

It doesn't piss me off. Unlike many others, I don't look at my collection as a fucking
investment. I actually played my $1,600 JP Metal Slug.

What pisses me off if that most of this people (Rom Users), and I am not saying
you directly, always see themselves as true SNK fans. They always think
that by playing in Kaillera, or whatever the fuck is called, they're automatically
l337, that they can beat anyone who has the real thing at playing these games,
when most of the time they're stupidly wrong. Just because others can pay what
they can't, doesn't make them assholes. They all claim to be SNK fans, if they
had some respect for the games, and the people who made them they wouldn't
be stealing them. They will get the real thing, or at least try to get 'ports'.

Too bad
most of you around here, see roms as some kind of ART that really doesn't
harm anybody, (It doesn't anymore) but it did in the past. Whatever, I will never
have any kind of respect for anyone who steals any kind of software.

broken said:

fixed that for you

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I couldn't give a fuck if you hate me or not.
Most of the people I have met offline that post on these forums
know that I am not a bad guy, I just think different
that most of you. Does that make me a hateful bastard, because
I don't agree with you?

xtoo_short20x said:

Sorry, but I couldn't give a fuck if you hate me or not.
Most of the people I have met offline that post on these forums
know that I am not a bad guy, I just think different
that most of you. Does that make me a hateful bastard, because
I don't agree with you?

Click to expand...

lol...that was more of a playful jab at ya than anything else.


Although I think you are a bit hardcore (way over the top), you are still good people.