For the film buffs..."I am not a fan of Kurosawa's works...I respect your opinion"

For the film buffs..."I am not a fan of Kurosawa's works...I respect your opinion"

OK, I'm really sick and tired of every "film buff" (what a stupid fucking word anyway) yapping about how great Kurosawa was. Seriously, he wasn't that good.

I find it fucking HILARIOUS that a man who can spend his ENTIRE CAREER emulating western directors has such a ridiculous following among the self proclaimed film enthusiasts in America (I don't know about the rest of the world). Kurosawa was a horrible director whose "style" was in reality a disgusting ripoff of Hitchcock's. His work was not only "inspired" by the west, it was completely stolen from European and American literature as was any ounce of innovation in his work.

Americans see his films and they climax when they can actually follow a story, bragging about how much they appreciate "classic foreign film" and how wonderful Kurosawa was.

"Oh my GOD Rashomon has only seven actors and its still comprehendable, thats amazing!?!!?!?!"

Seriously, shut the fuck up. Us westerners cringe at the thought of seeing something that deviates from our nice, comfortable 3 act structure. Good guy runs toward goal, good guy achieves goal but finds something else is more important, good guy almost loses, and then good guy saves the day.

"But wait, Kurosawa's work is so tragic and sublime. The good guys never win."

You're thinking of Ran, Yojimbo...or maybe Hidden Fortress. Open up your 10th grade English Textbook and you'll find better, deeper, and more concise versions of the films above.

If you all really want something different, Look into Yukio Mishima, Takeshi Kitano, and more importantly Miike and Fukasaku's work (the dead one, not his hack of a son). They really have something to say, and are willing to deviate from the western style of sensationalist cinema to tell a more important story through the eyes of their own culture.

I really like Takeshi Kitano's (AKA Beat Takeshi) films, I also enjoy Shintaro Katsu(AKA Zatoichi) films. Kurosawa was okay, only film I like from him are Yojimbo and Sanjuro

"Rashomon" isn't any good?

Get your head examined. The movie was such a force at the time that it became its own adjective!

If you can give credit to great performances of Shakespeare, how does that make "Ran" any worse?

I assume you haven't seen the excellent "High and Low", elements of which have made their ways into many recent movies (including one of my favorites, "The Big Lebowski").

and what on earth is with your overly Nippon-phile tendancies?

You sound like Kurosawa's original Japanese critics: "Oh, boo-hoo, he isn't Japanese enough, he should be ashamed, boo-hoo-hoo."

You sound like someone who's taken too many bad film criticism classes: "Oh Hitchcock is the almighty, so are the truly foreign films: everything else is shit."

Bleh. Just bleh.

BoriquaSNK said:

OK, I'm really sick and tired of every "film buff" (what a stupid fucking word anyway) yapping about how great Kurosawa was. Seriously, he wasn't that good.

I find it fucking HILARIOUS that a man who can spend his ENTIRE CAREER emulating western directors has such a ridiculous following among the self proclaimed film enthusiasts in America (I don't know about the rest of the world). Kurosawa was a horrible director whose "style" was in reality a disgusting ripoff of Hitchcock's. His work was not only "inspired" by the west, it was completely stolen from European and American literature as was any ounce of innovation in his work.

Americans see his films and they climax when they can actually follow a story, bragging about how much they appreciate "classic foreign film" and how wonderful Kurosawa was.

"Oh my GOD Rashomon has only seven actors and its still comprehendable, thats amazing!?!!?!?!"

Seriously, shut the fuck up. Us westerners cringe at the thought of seeing something that deviates from our nice, comfortable 3 act structure. Good guy runs toward goal, good guy achieves goal but finds something else is more important, good guy almost loses, and then good guy saves the day.

"But wait, Kurosawa's work is so tragic and sublime. The good guys never win."

You're thinking of Ran, Yojimbo...or maybe Hidden Fortress. Open up your 10th grade English Textbook and you'll find better, deeper, and more concise versions of the films above.

If you all really want something different, Look into Yukio Mishima, Takeshi Kitano, and more importantly Miike and Fukasaku's work (the dead one, not his hack of a son). They really have something to say, and are willing to deviate from the western style of sensationalist cinema to tell a more important story through the eyes of their own culture.

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WTF?!?!

You can't be SERIOUS....

Bobak said:

You sound like Kurosawa's original Japanese critics: "Oh, boo-hoo, he isn't Japanese enough, he should be ashamed, boo-hoo-hoo."

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That's exactly what I was thinking. And the criticism only works in the first place, if you're willing to write off French directors influenced by American directors, American directors influenced by French directors, American directors influenced by Hong Kong directors, Italian directors influenced by American directors, etc., etc. You'd be living in a world without Sergio Leone, for one thing. Once Upon a Time in the West references just about every major American western movie ever made up until that point.

I will agree with you that Kurosawa is not the quitessential Japanese director, by any means. He was very much western-influenced, and so his early work especially was not very accessible or well received in Japan. But that in no way implies that his work is without merit.

Actually, I like Hitchcock a lot more than I like Kurosawa, but you seem to be implying that Hitchcock had no influences, himself. Get real.

BoriquaSNK said:

Open up your 10th grade English Textbook and you'll find better, deeper, and more concise versions of the films above.

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is this whole rant is mostly about book to film interpretations?

the western way usually ends up either being an effects laden smorgasbord or a teeny bopper popcorn flick

go die boriqua, you have no soul, and certainly no opinion either. just stand there and wait for a truck to hit you.

WTF? How did this already end up in the War Room?

I'm tossing it back into Unrelated... for now.

Have you ever seen Ikiru? Madadayo? Red Beard?

I own most of the Zatoichi series but I could hardly put them in the same class as Kurosawa films. The same with Kitano, you are comparing actors to one of the greatest directors that ever lived.

Go watch RAN. Best adaptation of a Shakespeare sketch ever, despite the japanese ambient.

If you don't like it, it's beacuse you don't like Shakespeare, not Kurosawa.

EDIT: Kurosawa films speaks about trancedental themes. They must be read between the lines, you know. The Shakespeare sketches are all that way, and Kurosawa had proved that he's able to understand it when transforming it in a movie. Just it is enough to make him one of the best directors ever in my book.

Pardon the harshness of my first post, I had just finished having a really pointless discussion with a guy who had the gaul to tell me after watching 45 minutes of Mishima's work that Kurosawa was the greatest japanese director to ever exist.

Let me clarify my position so as not to send this thread back to the warroom.

Kurosawa's films bother me in the sense that they are beautiful and sometimes very dynamic, but they always lack that extra spark that makes a film classic. Rashamon had something missing, Ran had a LOT missing (as for the argument with Ran, it's a beautiful epic, but a shitty film IMO).

I think the reason Kurosawa was hailed by the west was because:

a) His films were easier to follow than those of his contemporaries.

b) He was really the only big Japanese director at the time.

Kurosawa is the Japanese Spielberg in my opinion, so close yet never reaching the finish line and thus never really saying anything.

As for Hitchcock, I'm sorry but he was the greatest director (with the possible exception of Godard whom I love) that ever lived...no one in their right mind can argue that. Vertigo is quite possibly the most complex film ever made.

Directors with American influences...thats ok too. It's OK to be influenced by something, however the key word is INFLUENCE. Godard was influenced by AMerican directors, as was Truffaut and Bunuel...but they didn't make foreign language AMerican epics either. They took what they learned and created something new and exciting...Kurosawa didn't. While the narrative, or lack theorof, in Rashamon was promising and mildly original...it isn't enough to hail someone as a national artistic symbol IMO.

Terry330 said:

I own most of the Zatoichi series but I could hardly put them in the same class as Kurosawa films. The same with Kitano, you are comparing actors to one of the greatest directors that ever lived.

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Violent Cop and Boiling Point are two of the most underappreciated films ever. Both directed by Kitano.

slerch666 said:

Have you ever seen Ikiru? Madadayo? Red Beard?

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Yes, yes, and yes.

One thumb up for each, Spielberg at his best.

takeshi kitano>kurosawa

pistons>lakers

BoriquaSNK said:

Pardon the harshness of my first post, I had just finished having a really pointless discussion with a guy who had the gaul to tell me after watching 45 minutes of Mishima's work that Kurosawa was the greatest japanese director to ever exist.

Let me clarify my position so as not to send this thread back to the warroom.

Kurosawa's films bother me in the sense that they are beautiful and sometimes very dynamic, but they always lack that extra spark that makes a film classic. Rashamon had something missing, Ran had a LOT missing (as for the argument with Ran, it's a beautiful epic, but a shitty film IMO).

I think the reason Kurosawa was hailed by the west was because:

a) His films were easier to follow than those of his contemporaries.

b) He was really the only big Japanese director at the time.

Kurosawa is the Japanese Spielberg in my opinion, so close yet never reaching the finish line and thus never really saying anything.

As for Hitchcock, I'm sorry but he was the greatest director (with the possible exception of Godard whom I love) that ever lived...no one in their right mind can argue that. Vertigo is quite possibly the most complex film ever made.

Directors with American influences...thats ok too. It's OK to be influenced by something, however the key word is INFLUENCE. Godard was influenced by AMerican directors, as was Truffaut and Bunuel...but they didn't make foreign language AMerican epics either. They took what they learned and created something new and exciting...Kurosawa didn't. While the narrative, or lack theorof, in Rashamon was promising and mildly original...it isn't enough to hail someone as a national artistic symbol IMO.

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Judging by what you are saying, I would point that what YOU seek in a movie is what is missing in a Kurosawa work.

Just as a parallel, The Passion lacks various aspects of a 'great' movie, but it's the greatest religious movie ever made IMO, and in the opinion of lots of friends of mine that really don't dig this genre.

RAN, is an epic, but just not an epic in a Hollywoodian (or even in a cult oriental movie) way. It's more profound that that, and it is more focused in the fidelity to the original story than to be a well-accepted movie.

DashK said:

takeshi kitano>kurosawa

pistons>lakers

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any opinion>your opinion

Verythrax said:

any opinion>your opinion

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dashk>n00bs

BoriquaSNK said:

Directors with American influences...thats ok too. It's OK to be influenced by something, however the key word is INFLUENCE. Godard was influenced by AMerican directors, as was Truffaut and Bunuel...but they didn't make foreign language AMerican epics either. They took what they learned and created something new and exciting...Kurosawa didn't.

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think back in the last 50 years, the japanese have not really been making that many new and original things.

you want influence?
disney was one of the first to make complete animated FILMS.
the west was the first to make and popularize videogames.
electronics.

all of these are now ingrained in todays world as more japanese influenced (except disney)

watch Macbeth as shown in your american lit class from high school. then watch kurosawa's much older version of the same story. it makes the english adaptation feel like a MOVIE and not a FILM.

kurosawa may not be the most original or least influenced, but that doesnt mean that his adaptations of mostly western literature are below par of western adaptations of western literature.








just imo.

dullbuoy said:

watch Macbeth as shown in your american lit class from high school. then watch kurosawa's much older version of the same story. it makes the english adaptation feel like a MOVIE and not a FILM.

kurosawa may not be the most original or least influenced, but that doesnt mean that his adaptations of mostly western literature are below par of western adaptations of western literature.

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Fully agree. I would say that his adaptations are better that the last 2 decades' western adaptations.

OMG, Kurosawa was influenced by the WEST. evil.

And he only influenced a ton of western directors. Magnificent Seven is...Seven Samurai done by the west. Stars Wars is The Hidden Fortress.

but hey, there's something wrong with taking from the west. The west is supposed to take from the east, not vice versa!

Bobak said:

Get your head examined.

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I'll second that. I thought I'd heard it all in this place.

Seriously though, one of the top five directors in history. Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, Rashomon, Throne of Blood, Hidden Fortress, Ran...that's only his most widely known stuff...there are countless others. It's safe to say 95% of all directors alive would love to have just one of those films in their resume.

Sometimes I think people here just like to start idiotic threads to get attention.

In many of Kirosawa's movies the level of emotion that the actors show is amazing in itself. Kirosawa liked the emotion of silent cinema and translated a lot of that into films like Rashomon and Seven Samurai. It seems to be in this emotion that many of his films carry that you can see the true charm of his work.

Apart from that many ideas that Kirosawa incorporated into his films were later mimicked or copied. Be it camera angles and movement to scene structure and placement.

I guess I can't see how someone who has influenced so many can not be considered great.


Here was a paragraph I found a while ago, thought it was interesting and can apply to this discussion:

It is a measure of Kurosawa's worldwide influence that "Hidden Fortress" helped inspire "Star Wars," "The Seven Samurai" was remade as "The Magnificent Seven," and "Yojimbo" and "Sanjuro" were transformed into the Clint Eastwood westerns "A Fistful of Dollars" and "For a Few Dollars More." On the other hand, Kurosawa remade, too: "Throne of Blood" is from "Macbeth," "Lower Depths" is from Gorki, "The Idiot" is from Dostoyevsky, and "High and Low" is adapted from an Ed McBain police procedural.

Kurosawa and his movies are amazing.

The work that goes into every shot is incredible. Every shot in his movies looks like a painting, you could frame the stills and sell them as photography.

Saying that Kurosawa is just like spielberg upsets me.

BoriquaSNK said:

I think the reason Kurosawa was hailed by the west was because:

a) His films were easier to follow than those of his contemporaries.

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Yes. But although that's true, it doesn't take away from the fact that they're good movies anyway.

BoriquaSNK said:

Kurosawa is the Japanese Spielberg in my opinion, so close yet never reaching the finish line and thus never really saying anything.

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You are not allowing for movies theat merely entertain. I love Raiders and Jaws. This, along with the following paragraph, leads to my conclusion that...

BoriquaSNK said:

As for Hitchcock, I'm sorry but he was the greatest director (with the possible exception of Godard whom I love) that ever lived...no one in their right mind can argue that. Vertigo is quite possibly the most complex film ever made.

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...you are a young, pretentious individual full of affectation and fake passion (although, to be fair, you probably aren't self aware enough to realize it. That will come with age and experience). I went to art school, so believe me, I'm familiar with the type. Self-important fools, proudly showing off theories and opinions learned from others as if they were their own, and looking down upon those who dare not to conform to the elite. Tiresome.

Hitchcock was undeniably one of the greatest directors who ever lived, but his work lies mostly within one tradition, where clear storytelling takes precidence over atmosphere, and to an extent, character. This makes him the quintessential American director, but ignores so much else that is possible in film. Vertigo is a rich film (and my second favorite Hitchcock), but he still leads you by the hand throughout the movie, so that at the end, everything is neatly explained; I'd hardly call it the most complex film ever made.

BoriquaSNK said:

Directors with American influences...thats ok too. It's OK to be influenced by something, however the key word is INFLUENCE. Godard was influenced by AMerican directors, as was Truffaut and Bunuel...but they didn't make foreign language AMerican epics either.

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Leone did...with Once Upon a Time in the West and Once Upon a Time in America... two absolutely beautiful movies. Get off your high horse. You look ridiculous on it.

BoriquaSNK said:

While the narrative, or lack theorof, in Rashamon was promising and mildly original...it isn't enough to hail someone as a national artistic symbol IMO.

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I don't think you get to call something as often imitated as Rashamon "mildly original". You just don't. I also don't think it's up to you to decide who is thought of as a national artistic symbol. Talk about arrogance.

It would be interesting to put this thread in a time capsule, and look at it again maybe in ten years, when you've grown up a bit, and no longer feel the need to prove your worth by spouting what you think are controversial opinions. And wow, you like Truffaut and Bunuel and Hitchcock, how elite.