Outrage At American Torture Of Iraqi Prisoners

OUTRAGE AT AMERICAN TORTURE OF IRAQI PRISONERS

London Mirror
Apr 30 2004

Video footage of US soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners of war horrified America yesterday.

The TV stills showed a hooded captive standing on a box with wires attached to his hands, and naked prisoners stacked in a human pyramid while jeering troopers look on laughing.

Six soldiers now face court martial and jail. One allegedly boasted that the captives "broke within hours". Seven others, including a general, are suspended from duty and may be disciplined.

Other captives were forced to pose in humiliating positions, some of them simulating sex acts, as soldiers gave the thumbs up.

Army Reserve Staff Sergeant Chip, who is accused of striking detainees and ordering them to beat each other, was seen sitting on a prisoner.

He allegedly boasted in an email to his family: "We had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to talk. They ended up breaking within hours."

Yesterday Frederick said he would deny abuse, claiming he was not shown Geneva Convention rules on how to treat captives.

"I kept asking my chain of command for things like rules and regulations. It just wasn't happening." The soldiers, from the 800th Military Police Brigade, were arrested after the video images were sent to a friend who handed them to authorities.

The friend told investigators: "There are some things going on at Abu Ghraib that I can't live with."

Brig Gen Kimmitt said: "These pictures may reflect the actions of individuals. But, by God, it doesn't reflect my army.

"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."

Former Marine Lieutenant Colonel Bill Cowan warned: "We'll be paid back for this after these people are let out."

The charges faced by the six soldiers include dereliction of duty, cruelty, maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another person.

Among the officers under investigation is 800th Brigade's commander, Brigadier General Janice Karpinski.

CBS broadcast the pictures on its show 60 Minutes early yesterday. Last night they were shown on the BBC 6 O'Clock News.






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Ray's comments:

Our soldiers are imbeciles.
Period.

Kid Aphex said:

Ray's comments:

Our soldiers are imbeciles.
Period.

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I wouldn't say they all are, I'd definately say some are not the cream of the crop and some are probably downright miserable people, but there are actually people that volunteered to the military long ago when they thought their government would only use them when necessary is just wars.

"I kept asking my chain of command for things like rules and regulations. It just wasn't happening." The soldiers, from the 800th Military Police Brigade, were arrested after the video images were sent to a friend who handed them to authorities.

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If that soldier couldn't tell that what they were doing was wrong, he's an idiot and needs to be removed from duty permanently. What kind of morons are they letting into our Armed Forces anyway?

SOME soldiers KA...SOME are imbeciles....and remember, it was American soldiers who dropped a dime on these guys anyway.

If you think that represents the whole of the US military in Iraq, then you are just as dumb as the soldiers in those pictures. Funny, I don't remember you creating a big thread of outrage when the Iraqi's dragged the burned and mutilated remains of Americans thru the streets of Fallujah...

One things for sure...those soldiers are fucking stupid X2 for taking pics.

I thought the NY Times portrayed that incident (in yesterday's paper) with more balance. They emphasized the question that the soldier's lawyers were pushing: i.e. should the COs be blamed. Most of the staff in charge of that prison's already been reassigned. There was also a note that these soldiers were reservists who weren't trained for prison duty (although that can be counteracted with a simple: "Who in the hell would judge that to be ever appropriate?"

The NY Times also mentions that this happened in mid-2003 and the military's already worked to stop doing this. The soldiers are only coming to court right now.

Personally, I hope they sit in the brig for a while so they can count their stars that their guards aren't as fucked up as they were.

Regardless, this will end up in a lot of Iraqi media and talk at least a few more dozen "neutral" Iraqis into the "hostile" camp.

Awesome, glad to see someone is torturing those pieces of shit. Now if they would just drop a nuke and eliminate the whole place...

GunstarHero said:

One things for sure...those soldiers are fucking stupid X2 for taking pics.

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Yep.

War is hell. It affects people mentally. Heck, I'd be surprised if half the people, on this forum, act the same way after being shot at or totally dissed by people who you 'in your mind' had total intentions of helping out. A thankless job, when your life is on the line. Sure, there's some people who have the willpower and mental sense to get past that crap, ignore it, and keep focus while being humane. But it's a sad fact that a whole lot more people in the entire world would not fall under that category.

Something like this is almost expected. It's happened before.

There's no way I'll comment on the possible mental issues, at hand. I can see a lot of people, who've been on the field, just ready to take pot shots at me for jumping in and commenting in my nice safer spot, at home. Heck, one of the reasons I'm trying very hard to stay away from anything that has me carry a gun, is my uncertainty to what possible monster I could become if I were to be thrown into the (It's them or me) shoot don't hesitate world. I don't care what people like to say, Videogames do not desensitize the real life experience. There's no way I'll mentally crack, playing a videogame. It's just that different.

This doesn't condone what those soldiers did. They should be held responsible for such actions. But it seems everybody is so incredibly quick to see people at their worst and love to make a comment that the entire group, of what they can be grouped in, is the same. Might as well, condemn every black man, in the U.S. because some black kid (who got in with the wrong crowd), got messed up in some drug issue.

Kirk Foiden said:

War is hell. It affects people mentally. Heck, I'd be surprised if half the people, on this forum, act the same way after being shot at or totally dissed by people who you 'in your mind' had total intentions of helping out. A thankless job, when your life is on the line. Sure, there's some people who have the willpower and mental sense to get past that crap, ignore it, and keep focus while being humane. But it's a sad fact that a whole lot more people in the entire world would not fall under that category.

Something like this is almost expected. It's happened before.

There's no way I'll comment on the possible mental issues, at hand. I can see a lot of people, who've been on the field, just ready to take pot shots at me for jumping in and commenting in my nice safer spot, at home. Heck, one of the reasons I'm trying very hard to stay away from anything that has me carry a gun, is my uncertainty to what possible monster I could become if I were to be thrown into the (It's them or me) shoot don't hesitate world. I don't care what people like to say, Videogames do not desensitize the real life experience. There's no way I'll mentally crack, playing a videogame. It's just that different.

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Keeping your composure is part of being a soldier. If you get shot at a bit and completely lose it, you're no doing your job well and as with any job that you can't do, you shouldn't have that job for long.

GunstarHero said:

SOME soldiers KA...SOME are imbeciles....and remember, it was American soldiers who dropped a dime on these guys anyway.

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Actually, according to the article, it was a soldier's friend who sent the pictures to authorities. They didn't mention if the actual soldier felt bad about the pics and wanted to get the word out, or if he was trying to brag to his friend.

I have to agree that you can't judge the entire Army from the actions of these individuals, although they may be a better indicator than I'd like.

Ghost-Dog said:

If that soldier couldn't tell that what they were doing was wrong, he's an idiot and needs to be removed from duty permanently. What kind of morons are they letting into our Armed Forces anyway?

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#1> Any poor person who needs to get out of their neighborhood to better their life, though it's debatable as to why a good 80% who come from nothing and make something of themselves while in the military retire to go right back to the neighborhood they escaped during that time, and end up dead at the hands of a car jacker who only sees the minute-to-minute the same way the person who took themselves out of the "Ghetto/Barrio" did before going in.



#2> Senior High students buying into the myth and hype of being AN ARMY OF ONE or THE FEW THE PROUD. But then bitch when they realize it's not all full dress uniforms and getting their dicks sucked because there stationed at such and such. Sometimes you mow the lawn on base, sometimes you pull K.P. and sometimes your the cannon fodder of politicans who will NEVER hear a bullet zip past them.

#3> People who think they are more clever than the system that has been using the same methods since before WWI. *They go in to USE the military to pay for their college, and then pray their MOS/AFSC doesn't put them in a combat zone should a war break out, because they didn't enter military serivce to go "Career" and treat it as a "Sacred Vocation"... instead it's more of a parasite sucking blood out of the host, and because they didn't put their hearts into THE ART OF WAR, and what their station means, {both on a psychological and realistic stand point} despite whether or not their MOS/AFSC is combat applicable.

...thus at this point with Media rating on HIGH and the collective majority's morale on LOW, shit... the military will soon be taking anyone they can get because no one's going to want to enlist when you're not allowed to win. If it really got bad it might end up like how Germany during WWII, once handed out Bazookas and a bicycle to 12 year olds and told them to go hunt tanks.

MERCENARY X99

#3>

Hey now, I just want you all to stop balling "Armed Services" up into one group now. I am in the military and don't appreciate being balled up with these assholes who deserve to be publicly defaced. I don't think that Eight One would appreciate it either. You are sterotyping by using general terms like this.

Also Bush is making sure something happens to these soldiers, no matter how much you hate the mand KA he shares the same opinion about this as you:: it is a horrible situation.

I had you beat by an hour KA

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89542

It is incredibly fucked up.

Dishonorable Discharges, Court Marshalls, and Prison time is 100% necessary if this country is to have any chance at regaining International confidence.

SouthtownKid said:

I have to agree that you can't judge the entire Army from the actions of these individuals, although they may be a better indicator than I'd like.

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Well, I know for a fact not to judge the entire military based on this incident, because I have a few friends that served in the Iraq War, and they didn't do this shit. I can only imagine people who make blanket statements that all our soldiers are imbeciles, doesn't know anyone personally in the military, and especially doesn't have contact with people who've served in this war. It's quite rude, arrogant, and insulting to be honest.

Whether this was an isolated incident or not, make no difference....

What matters is that these fucks got notoriety & bad publicity under the international spotlight....

Stupid shit like this only strengthens the resolve of Islamic fundamentalists and makes things more difficult for the decent soldiers who just want to get the job done and GTFO.

And Gunstar Hero: KA didn't make a fuss about those mutilations because, as base and disgusting as their acts may be....it was on their soil and it was commited against those who are invading their country....perhaps if they came to wage war on America under a false pretext, and did the same act in the US....maybe then he'd show a little more outrage, yes?

Also, lets keep in mind that the woman pointing to the mans groin is a BRIGANDIER GENERAL...thats TOP fucking brass right there.


If a one star General disrespects soldiers to that degree, then can you imagine the type of corruption elsewhere?


and you might have missed this one. This photo shows the complete and utter disregard for the culture as a whole. How can we say we want to free and liberate a nation when we force our prisoners to things like this? How the hell do you think HAMAS and otherradical muslim groups are gonna react to this sort of thing?

Mercenary X99 said:

#3> People who think they are more clever than the system that has been using the same methods since before WWI. *They go in to USE the military to pay for their college, and then pray their MOS/AFSC doesn't put them in a combat zone should a war break out, because they didn't enter military serivce to go "Career" and treat it as a "Sacred Vocation"... instead it's more of a parasite sucking blood out of the host, and because they didn't put their hearts into THE ART OF WAR, and what their station means, {both on a psychological and realistic stand point} despite whether or not their MOS/AFSC is combat applicable.

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Hey! I am in this because I want to go to college. I am in here doing my job (over 4 years now) working for wages that keep my wife and I below the poverty line so that I can go to school w/o out having to worry about having school to pay for when I am done. I don't want to go into combat, but that does not mean that I woulden't.

Don't classify someone who you know nothing about. You sound like an inconsiderate dick who thinks your opinion is the only correct one. I dont have to put my heart into the art of war to make a dollar from the service. Don't think like that. There are many other jobs. Why don't you join if you have such loafty goals of war?

Spoonman said:

And Gunstar Hero: KA didn't make a fuss about those mutilations because, as base and disgusting as their acts may be....it was on their soil and it was commited against those who are invading their country....perhaps if they came to wage war on America under a false pretext, and did the same act in the US....maybe then he'd show a little more outrage, yes?

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No...because you can't turn back the clock...the war was real, it happened and we are dealing with the aftermath. The people that were murdered in the streets of Fallujah were protecting a food and aid shipment...it really shouldn't matter that they were Americans...there should have been outrage about it no matter who was killed doing that duty...however since the left hates America(and gets a sort of sadistic glee at the thought of the U.S. losing this war), we see no remorse from them, just "those Mercenaries deserved what they got"....

Again, the article above only got a fraction of the story, I tried to fill in the blanks in my earlier post... but its more fun to argue with only half the facts, I suppose.

Bobak said:

Again, the article above only got a fraction of the story, I tried to fill in the blanks in my earlier post... but its more fun to argue with only half the facts, I suppose.

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I don't know what facts I left out [the time line of the events] have anything to do with what happened. The point is, we're just seeing the pictures now.

Bobak said:

Again, the article above only got a fraction of the story, I tried to fill in the blanks in my earlier post... but its more fun to argue with only half the facts, I suppose.

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Hey, I am just calling certain individuals out. I have full faith that this is a left-wing biast article. If it weren't KA woulden't have read it in the first place.

Kirk Foiden said:

War is hell.

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-

Three words.

Group think psychology.

Another food for thought, for those still with mental instabilities.

"I'm all the way over here. My superiors are all the way over there. I call the shots around here." <- Possible scenario.

You never know when another "apocalypse now" could happen, when some well decorated individual starts coming up with their own ideas on how the war really should be fought. Using the excuse, "They don't know what it is like down, here. How can the brass have any idea how to fight this war! Their pansy ways are too careful and don't get the job done when the enemy doesn't play by those rules. You gotta be in with the enemy to defeat them." Or something to that effect. That whole idea can be the scariest thing to politics.

Has anybody heard any stories about Iraqi prisons in the first Gulf war? Daily beatings with 2x4s sound good to you? Live in your own shit and become unable to tell it from your rancid soup that was dumped on the floor? Pray for a US bomb to hit your prison during an air raid? Read "Bravo Two Zero"

This current shit is obviously utterly retarded, but compare & contrast.

Shapermc said:

Hey, I am just calling certain individuals out. I have full faith that this is a left-wing biast article. If it weren't KA woulden't have read it in the first place.

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The British press (and all EU press) is far more biased in its reporting (one way or the other) -its tradition, nothing new. That's why London has so many papers. Still, I hesitate to disregard what they say -but reading a London newspaper requires taking into account the paper's particular bias. Most Americans have no idea some media overtly do that (hence the belief that Fox is "fair and balanced").

Here's the NY Times article, it says the same thing in a more neutral, fact-oriented tone -but the result is the same: These soldiers look like morons.

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April 29, 2004
TREATMENT OF PRISONERS
G.I.'s Are Accused of Abusing Iraqi Captives
By JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON, April 28 — American soldiers at a prison outside Baghdad have been accused of forcing Iraqi prisoners into acts of sexual humiliation and other abuses in order to make them talk, according to officials and others familiar with the charges.

The charges, first announced by the military in March, were documented by photographs taken by guards inside the prison, but were not described in detail until some of the pictures were made public.

Some of the photographs, and descriptions of others, were broadcast Wednesday night by the CBS News program "60 Minutes II" and were verified by military officials.

Of the six people reported in March to be facing preliminary charges, three have been recommended for court martial trials, having completed the military equivalent of a grand jury proceeding, a senior Pentagon official said late Wednesday. The decision on convening courts martial is now up to Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior American commander in Iraq.

The other grand jury hearings, called Article 32 proceedings under military law, have been delayed at the request of defense counsel.

The CBS News program reported that poorly trained American reservists were forcing Iraqis to conduct simulated sexual acts, among other things, in order to break down their will before they were turned over to others for interrogation.

Charges against the soldiers included assault, cruelty, indecent acts and maltreatment of detainees, Pentagon officials have previously said.

Gary Myers, the lawyer for one of the enlisted men charged, said in an interview that the military had treated the six soldiers as scapegoats and had failed to address adequately the responsibilities of senior commanders and intelligence personnel involved in the interrogations.

Top officers at the prison, including a brigadier general, face administrative review, officials said. They are no longer stationed at the prison, Abu Ghraib near Baghdad.

Mr. Myers said the accused men, all from an Army Reserve military police unit, had been told to soften up the prisoners by more senior American interrogators, some of whom they believe were intelligence officials and outside contractors.

"This case involves a monumental failure of leadership, where lower-level enlisted people are being scapegoated," Mr. Myers said. "The real story is not in these six young enlisted people. The real story is the manner in which the intelligence community forced them into this position."

Mr. Myers represents Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick of the Army Reserve, who has been charged in the case and who was interviewed by "60 Minutes II." He complained of a lack of training and admitted that dogs had been used to intimidate prisoners.

In one photograph obtained by the program, naked Iraq prisoners are stacked in a human pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English. In another, a prisoner stands on a box, his head covered, wires attached to his body. The program said that according to the United States Army, he had been told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. Other photographs show male prisoners positioned to simulate sex with each other.

"The pictures show Americans, men and women, in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners," states a transcript of the program's script, made available Wednesday night. "And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing or giving the camera a thumbs-up."

The CBS News program said the Army also had photographs showing a detainee with wires attached to his genitals and another showing a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner. The program also reported that the Army's investigation of the case included a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges that a translator hired to work at the prison raped a male juvenile prisoner.

At the Abu Ghraib prison, where the photographs were taken, American forces have been holding hundreds of Iraqis since the American-led invasion of Iraq. The prison is infamous as a site where Saddam Hussein tortured prisoners while he was in power.

In March, the United States military first announced that the six enlisted soldiers from the 800th Military Police Brigade were being charged in the case, but few details were released.

An official confirmed that Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who ran the prison, had been reassigned.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, chief spokesman for the American military command in Baghdad, told reporters that the investigation of Abu Ghraib prison began in January after a soldier came forward.

"I'm not going to stand up here and make excuses for those soldiers," General Kimmitt said. He said that "if what they did is proven in a court of law, that is incompatible with the values we stand for as a professional military force, and it's values that we don't stand for as human beings."

He added: "This does not reflect the vast majority of coalition soldiers, vast majority of American soldiers that are operating out of Abu Ghraib prison."

@Gunstar: Honestly....I don't condone the killing of any US citizens, be they combatants, contractors.....whatever....

And you're right: the clock can't be turned back but this shit can be stopped, though....

America should own up to it and make a heartfelt apology to the Iraqi people for the disgraceful behaviour....

I don't think they will ever pull out though....they need all that fucking oil to recoup the losses....

Perhaps renouncing the USs unconditional support of Israel might calm them down? That fucking Sharon is pretty disobediant to the US and its calls for dimplomacy....kinda like Saddam....can we invade Israel for this? Believe me....The Arab world would fucking love this idea.....shit, they'd just give you the oil for making them so happy...