716 megs?

kc · Mar 20, 2004

http://www.neostore.com/images/products/releases/artwork/kof2003.jpg

wasnt 708 the max

Makismo · Mar 20, 2004

I found this strange as well. I figured that 708 megs must not have been the max meg count because of Samurai Shodown 5 Special. Samurai Shodown 5 was 708 megs and I thought that the English text was cut out because they didn't have anymore room. It seems that we were wrong. Also, Samurai Shodown 5 Special is supposed to have all the things from the previous release plus a bunch of new characters and new backgrounds. So I figured then that 708 must not have been the max meg count the Neo Geo could do. I wonder what the real max is. Could the Giga still be alive and breathing? If the giga is the real max then why haven't we see KOF games not go above 700 megs until now? You would think that a 1,000 meg KOF would have been made by now if the giga was the real limit. I hope someone can figure this out.

metallizer · Mar 20, 2004

Makismo said:
Samurai Shodown 5 was 708 megs and I thought that the English text was cut out because they didn't have anymore room.

Amano Jacu · Mar 20, 2004

Mak, the above quote shows you have no idea about this (please go and ask Dion for more info).

The Neo Geo can only handle 708 megs, but some games may have more on their ROMS (not game code) due to encryptation.

evil wasabi · Mar 20, 2004

Quick talk with HPMAN in chat here is the reasoning.

Meg counts are done by the total capacity of all the chips.

708 is the theorized max for the Neo to handle. But if there is blank space the total number of megs available in the chips can be over 708 while the actual game code is still under 708

Makismo · Mar 20, 2004

Amano Jacu said:
Mak, the above quote shows you have no idea about this (please go and ask Dion for more info).

The Neo Geo can only handle 708 megs, but some games may have more on their ROMS (not game code) due to encryptation.

The above quote shows I have no idea about what? You didn't state your point. The guy above you didn't state his point either. You say that the game code can only be 708 megs but may have more on the roms for encryptation. Well, the Neo has to handle that has well. I don't think that this is an encryption issue. If it was, then why can Samurai Shodown 5 Special be bigger than Samurai Shodown 5 if the limit is really only 708 megs? What, is Playmore using some new type of encryptation? I don't think so really. No point in spending the money in making new ways of stopping the boot masters since this system is dead soon. SNK Vs capcom had new encrytation on the Jamma board but that board could handle the extra space while the Neo release of that game was still 708 megs. So I think that Playmore knows how to put more on the Neo Geo than you think. So get off your high horse for once and I don't have to ask Dion but I am sure that he knows more than you ever will about Neo Geo hardware. :glee:

Razoola · Mar 21, 2004

The meg count situation is a total scam in all honesty. Like HPMAN says, it takes the total ROM space into account even though much of that space can be blank. Scam examples include ROTD using duplicate banks using about 32megs of unneeded space. All the latest games can be easily fitted into 1x1meg and 1x4meg P ROMs (40mbit) but playmore are using 1x8meg or 2x4meg (64mbit). the current limit of the system is as follows.

Code:

512 Mbit = 16x16 tiles (C ROMs)
128 Mbit = Sound (V ROMs)
 72 Mbit = Program (P ROMs, 1x1meg main, 8x1meg banks)
  4 Mbit = Z80 (M ROM)
  4 Mbit = 8x8 tiles (S ROM)
-----------
720 Mbit = Total

Now KOF 2003 has the S ROM data in the C ROMs so hence a total of 716 Mbit. However there are 2 empty P ROM banks so another 16 Mbit should be removed for a more accurate reading (700 Mbit). On top of that some of the remaining 6 banks are not totally filled and having a quick look through myself I can see that 4 of those could have easily been fitted into 2. Thats another 16 Mbit that could have been saved with ease. The real KOF 2003 meg count should be 684 Mbit. Anything more is a scam in my view.

Now for some speculation....

Looking at the Method the NeoGeo uses to draw sprites (16x16 tiles from the C ROMs) there is one unused bit so far that could be used to access yet another 512 Mbit of 16x16 tiles.

Code:

$00000 - $DFFF: Blocks of sprite data, each $80 bytes:
    Each block is made up of $20 dwords, format is:
    Word: Sprite number (16 bits)
    Byte: Palette number (8 bits)
    Byte: Bit 0: X flip
          Bit 1: Y flip
          Bit 2: Automatic animation flag (4 tiles?)
          Bit 3: Automatic animation flag (8 tiles?)
          Bit 4: MSB of sprite number (Mslug)
          Bit 5: MSB of sprite number (MSlug2)
          Bit 6: MSB of sprite number (Kof97)
          Bit 7: Unknown for now

In question here is the unused Bit 7. If that could be used (which it seems it can as it would follow the use of the 3 bits before it) then instead of the 0x7FFFF tile limit it would be increased to 0xFFFFF. I would say the chances of hardware supporting this as being 99% in favor of. This would make the total possible meg count for the NeoGeo system to;

Code:

1024 Mbit = 16x16 tiles (C ROMs)
 128 Mbit = Sound (V ROMs)
  72 Mbit = Program (P ROMs, 1x1meg, 8x1meg banks)
   4 Mbit = Z80 (M ROM)
   4 Mbit = 8x8 tiles (S ROM)
-----------
1232 Mbit = Total

It also means there is plenty of space for extra character animation to make them smoother though I think the reason playmore have never used this is because of the extra cost in having more ROMs on the PCB. At a minimum they could make a KOF game with _ALL_ King of Fighters characters playable in one game.

4x32meg TSOPs will fit onto the cart PCB where 16x8meg DIPs won't.

Nuff said....

Raz

Amano Jacu · Mar 21, 2004

Makismo said:
bla bla bla

I don't want to argue with somebody as you, but saying that they needed to cut out some text because there wasn't room for it is STUPID, just read what Razoola said (if you manage to understand it, that is), now he knows much more about this stuff than any of us (including your beloved Dion).

Razoola · Mar 21, 2004

Amano Jacu said:
I don't want to argue with somebody as you, but saying that they needed to cut out some text because there wasn't room for it is STUPID, just read what Razoola said (if you manage to understand it, that is), now he knows much more about this stuff than any of us (including your beloved Dion).

read my post again, I have just updated to included some speculation

. And as you say SS5 missing english is certinally not due to space constraints.

Raz

smuf · Mar 21, 2004

Razoola said:
The meg count situation is a total scam in all honesty. Like HPMAN says, it takes the total ROM space into account even though much of that space can be blank. Scam examples include ROTD using duplicate banks using about 32megs of unneeded space. All the latest games can be easily fitted into 1x1meg and 1x4meg P ROMs (40mbit) but playmore are using 1x8meg or 2x4meg (64mbit). the current limit of the system is as follows.

Code:

512 Mbit = 16x16 tiles (C ROMs) 128 Mbit = Sound (V ROMs) 72 Mbit = Program (P ROMs, 1x1meg main, 8x1meg banks) 4 Mbit = Z80 (M ROM) 4 Mbit = 8x8 tiles (S ROM) ----------- 720 Mbit = Total

Now KOF 2003 has the S ROM data in the C ROMs so hence a total of 716 Mbit. However there are 2 empty P ROM banks so another 16 Mbit should be removed for a more accurate reading (700 Mbit). On top of that some of the remaining 6 banks are not totally filled and having a quick look through myself I can see that 4 of those could have easily been fitted into 2. Thats another 16 Mbit that could have been saved with ease. The real KOF 2003 meg count should be 684 Mbit. Anything more is a scam in my view.

Now for some speculation....

Looking at the Method the NeoGeo uses to draw sprites (16x16 tiles from the C ROMs) there is one unused bit so far that could be used to access yet another 512 Mbit of 16x16 tiles.

Code:

$00000 - $DFFF: Blocks of sprite data, each $80 bytes: Each block is made up of $20 dwords, format is: Word: Sprite number (16 bits) Byte: Palette number (8 bits) Byte: Bit 0: X flip Bit 1: Y flip Bit 2: Automatic animation flag (4 tiles?) Bit 3: Automatic animation flag (8 tiles?) Bit 4: MSB of sprite number (Mslug) Bit 5: MSB of sprite number (MSlug2) Bit 6: MSB of sprite number (Kof97) Bit 7: Unknown for now

In question here is the unused Bit 7. If that could be used (which it seems it can as it would follow the use of the 3 bits before it) then instead of the 0x7FFFF tile limit it would be increased to 0xFFFFF. I would say the chances of hardware supporting this as being 99% in favor of. This would make the total possible meg count for the NeoGeo system to;

Code:

1024 Mbit = 16x16 tiles (C ROMs) 128 Mbit = Sound (V ROMs) 72 Mbit = Program (P ROMs, 1x1meg, 8x1meg banks) 4 Mbit = Z80 (M ROM) 4 Mbit = 8x8 tiles (S ROM) ----------- 1232 Mbit = Total

It also means there is plenty of space for extra character animation to make them smoother though I think the reason playmore have never used this is because of the extra cost in having more ROMs on the PCB. At a minimum they could make a KOF game with _ALL_ King of Fighters characters playable in one game.

4x32meg TSOPs will fit onto the cart PCB where 16x8meg DIPs won't.

Nuff said....

Raz

eh...

716 megs?

kc

Belnar Institute Student

Makismo

Ghost of Captain Kidd

metallizer

,

Amano Jacu

Charles Barkley

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster

Makismo

Ghost of Captain Kidd

Razoola

Divine Hand of the UniBIOS,

Amano Jacu

Charles Barkley

Razoola

Divine Hand of the UniBIOS,

smuf

Vice's Love Slave