Need advice and opinions PLEASE !

Need advice and opinions PLEASE READ THIS!

Well at first I would like to say that I do want to solve things gently, without any flame or whatever. Please no insult nor war in this topic.
Here is the story :

I sold 5 BRAND NEW copy of Matrimelee recently.
'Deffty' was one of these buyers. I know that he is a very trusty and respected person in this forum.
He was very quick and paid me via western union.
Then I sent him the game right away by EMS on last August 30th.

However, already 2 weeks passed and he has not received the game yet. We each other tried to track the parcel.
It was aboard on a JAL flight on August 31st. Then, it disappeared and seems to have never been even in Singapour.

I am often requested to send stuff by EMS and this is the first time that such a problem occurs. On the EMS receipt, buyers always ask me to declare a low value so that customs do not bother the sending (Deffty did not mention me anything however, that is why I did like with any other buyer).
I took some pictures of that receits at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/chrisratel (check the 'Deffty only' folder)

Today I went to the post office again and definitely the item gets to be reported as lost...
As a consequence, I will be refunded the poor value I declared as a guarantee (4,000 yens).
Of course Deffty and I are both VERY disapointed of this bad experience (he also told me that he got games sent from Japan already in the past and he had also a big problem with it).

Anyway, we tried to discuss about some arrangement.
In my opinion, we as we both are not responsible for EMS diligence. I tried everything to get the parcel tracked or delivered but unsuccessfully.
So I proposed him the refund of half of the total loss at my own expense of course. I thought it was the fairest way for me.

But he totally rejects this possibility asking me a full refund of his 180 usd. I do understand his feeling but as I told previously, I mean someties shit happens. I can't take the responsibility of EMS. I am losing a game cost plus 180 usd plus a shipping. Then I can feel unfair too.... I am not a shop, not making business. And I am trying to make deals as a real partnership.

What do you think I should do ? In my case what would you do ?
This is the first time I have such a trouble in two years.
I hope I have been clear on the details, if not, Deffty please correct me.
I repeat again, what we need is advice, help and opinions only.
Thank you all for everything.

Christophe

Hi Christophe!!

FIRSTLY man, let me say "THAT SUCKS" and I TOTALLY understand where both sides are coming from...

I've sent something via a REGISTERED/GUARANTEED airmail service to my mate Robert BUT apparantly it aint even left the FEKKIN country yet!!!

HOWEVER, I've taken out some SERIOUS compensation on it and so if worse comes to the worse... I'll get a FULL refund...

On the subject of compensation levels. I just got a parcel of Robert and it was compensated to the level I wished for it. I SPECIFICALLY asked for this!!

I got hit with £120 worth of VAT/Excise Duty... but I felt it worth it as if it got lost then... we'd be BOTH screwed.

In my PERSONAL opinion you should ALWAYS take out the correct amount of compensation AND you should account for the fact that you may have IMPORT duties to pay!

NOW, concerning your situation....

I feel that you have both been a bit remiss or careless in this transaction...

You, Christophe in the fact that you should've realised that if the parcel gets lost... then you only get the level of compensation taken out on it...

Also, "Deffty" for not asking for a higher level of insurance. He should've made it clear whether he wished for the correct level of insurance or not to be taken out on it.

A deal is between two parties and the communication to express your cares and concerns about the transaction are upto to both of you!

LOOK, as you said "SHIT happens!"... so, when things like this happens... I feel the responsibilty should be shared... and the losses shared between you...

Your idea, christophe, of sharing the costs is sound and wouldn't be viewed too harshly. SOUNDS FAIR!

This is just my opinion....

It was definitely bad luck for the package to go AWOL, a rare occurance with EMS. Since Defty didn't ask you to declare a lower value, the fact that you did so on your own initiative (with good intentions), would mean that the fault for EMS not refunding the full amount lies with you. Most buyers would assume when they are paying for EMS delivery that their package will be fully insured. Just an IMHO.

Personally, I'd be grateful for you marking the value down, but I'm not Deffty.

I think the 50/50 split sounds reasonable, but I would also say I once had a parcel from Hong Kong sent EMS take six weeks to arrive. I don't know why. It may be that this parcel will still turn up.

i to agree on a 50/50 loss, but why the hell would it go parcel? when i did EMS it was all plane.

Damn this story sucks, and I can totally feel the pain of it as I've experienced just the same MORE than once.

I was always on the buyer side. All I got was always (but once) a 'sorry, not my fault, you're not going to have a penny back' answer from the seller.

The one and only case I got a full refund was when I asked a very insured shipment and the seller neverless shipped just with airmail. I assumed it was his negligence and asked for a full refund. In that gcase I got it.

Well, in the particular case reported in this thread, I guess sharing the bad luck is the fairest thing. Nor the seller nor the buyer did anything wrong from their side. THus each one would possibly claim 'it's not my fault, I'm not to lose anything'. But yes, shit DOES happen. Thus sharing 50/50 the loss is most probably the fairest thing. This is also because just getting involved in a abroad deal is someway taking the risk of this kind of shit happening.

Just my opinion anyway.

PS
I also know and deals with both Christophe and Deffty, and I KNOW they're BOTH great dealers and persons. Damn, how come scammers never got their package lost?

What Christophe said above is correct.
(Correct me if anything I said is wrong)
Just incase people does not understand the transactions;

-I bought a Matrimelee brand new for $180 shipped EMS on 31 August from Christophe.

-I pay through Western union bank transfer which I bear the subcharges $25 ($180 + $25), quickly the next day after we agreeded on it.
At that time he don't accept paypal.

-He shipped the item the next day after he received the payment and sent me a tracking number(sadly it never update ).

-I am from Singapore and item is EMS shipped from Japan.
(Both ASIA)

-Its normally takes 2 to 3 days to arrive, so after a week and its
does not appear, I know something went wrong.
Its more than 2 weeks now.

-Both of us try to track the items via local EMS office but the item basically did not reach Singapore.

-I believed Christophe is a good seller and sent the items but the problem is;
I sent payment swiftly and waited 2 weeks just to get a brand new matrimelee to enjoy but its still does not arrive.

-I had buy and sell hundreds of items using EMS service for the past few years and not even one package had gone missing.

Waited 2 weeks instead of 2 to 3 days is bad enough and now
the item possiblity declare as lost??
I only get offer for a partial refunded and no replacement for a brand new Matrimelee home cart.

---------------------
The item cost $180, the max amount before Tax inposed locally is $230.
So I would only asked the seller to declare a lower value when the amount hit above $230.
Theres no problem if he declare as full value as $180 in this case but I didn't know that he declare as a low value till he shipped the item.

Is this my fault for not stating this?
I would bear the responsible too if I agreed to declare as a low value in the first place.
---------------------

Not to add that I had been calling my post office every 2 days just to check if the item arrived in Singapore.

I requested for a full refunded or a brand new Matrimelee home cart in my opinion as I believe its not my fault when the item get missing.

What would you want if you are me(buyer)?

So we opt for opinions from the buyers and sellers here as this transaction taken place through this forum.

No Flames pls, only helps and opinion.
This is a post asking for opinions from the forum peple.

Something very similar happened to me when I got a pile of games from Joe Mc Cabe. I asked for a low value to be declared and of course the games got damaged (including a Quiz Chibi maruko )

However, since I was the one who asked for a lower value to be declared I did not push for any refund or anything, was a chance I thought was worth taking.

In this case since Alex (deffty) did not ask for a lower value to be declared I have to say that I think he is entitled to ask for a full refund or exchange.

I know this sucks for the seller but it was not the buyers fault that a low value was declared.

I hope you can work it out, you both seem like decent people.

Big Al said:

In this case since Alex (deffty) did not ask for a lower value to be declared I have to say that I think he is entitled to ask for a full refund or exchange.

Click to expand...

agreed

I have dealt with Deffty in many occasions and he always marks the value down because i asked him at the start to do so

now if any of our parcels went missing i would have totally apprecaited any compensation from Alex

now this time Alex didnt ask for it to be marked down so the blame must lie with Christophe - sorry mate you do sound like a spot on guy but because of a decision on your part Alex shouldnt be out of pocket

its not upto the buyer to stress if he wants the correct compensation value - if the buyer doesnt mention it, it should be insured correctly

normally i ask for the value to be marked down but in one of my last transactions i paid for the correct amount and i am glad that i did because the parcel has been deemed lost

so if Alex asked for the value marked down then its an excellent gesture from Christophe, but since he didnt Christophe should pay up

but who knows Alex may decide - aww feck it just send me half

good luck with what ever you two decide

I hear you Deffty.

For me it's very clear and simple (there has been very long but inconclusive posts here). It all comes down to this:

1) Scenario #1: the buyer asks the seller to put a low value on the item. Item gets lost, bad luck for the buyer, who will only get the DECLARED VALUE of said item

2) Scenario #2: the seller puts a low value on the item without first being asked to do so by the buyer. That is, he does so of his own accord. BAD LUCK FOR THE SELLER, who should give a full refund to the buyer.

I think that saying otherwise is just nonsense. Of course I agree this is a rather nasty situation for the seller, but he must be responsible for what he does. I have sold quite a lot of games outside these boards, and I always make dead sure that the buyer tells me all the details about the manner in which he wants his items shipped.

Lovecraft0110 said:

1) Scenario #1: the buyer asks the seller to put a low value on the item. Item gets lost, bad luck for the buyer, who will only get the DECLARED VALUE of said item

2) Scenario #2: the seller puts a low value on the item without first being asked to do so by the buyer. That is, he does so of his own accord. BAD LUCK FOR THE SELLER, who should give a full refund to the buyer.

Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I totally agree.

Alex did not ask for the value to be marked down. If someone asks for this and the seller is kind enough to do it, it is at the buyers risk. If they didn't ask, they would assume that by paying for EMS, they were getting the full insurance. It is therefore Christophe's mistake and unfortunately, he should refund or replace imho. It's very unfortunate as Christophe was trying to do Deffty a favour.

Deffty did not ask me to put a low value on the description, that is true.
But I am not supposed to understand that he wanted something fully declared. And I was not supposed to know also the maximum amount until which customs do not claim any tax.
The point is we DID NOT TALK about all these things at the moment of the deal.
So he thought that I was going to declare the correct amount while I was acting on my side as with all the others, thinking he would like me to write a low value.
Who knows, if the customs had asked him something he could have repproached it to me, (like it happens once with somebody else.). I am not supposed to know the 'default' setting.
So as a resume, we did not set the rules correctly from the beginning, and in my opinion, this is simply a mistake from both of us...

Well, first of all Christophe, as of the moment you gain a penny with your transactions you are doing business, and you are acting like a seller.

Back to the main point:

Everybody is focusing on who decided to declare low value, and I think this is not the main issue here. Declaring low value has become something normal to be done, like a non written rule. It does not only goes on the interest of the buyer (to avoid taxes) but on the seller’s one too, who is able to have more predisposed buyers to purchase his goods. This is a real fact many times. How many sellers do state “I won’t declare low value”, let me tell you, practically none.

As a proof of this fact here you have Christophes’ decision, he declared low value, and I do not think he should be blamed for it, most of us would have been happy with that decision.

There is obviously a lack of communication of both parties here, and also a third incompetent party (Post office) which is the real guilty one. As a consequence at first glance sharing the costs (game and money order costs) at 50% should be the most equitable decision to be undertaken.

However, there is still one thing that comes to my mind, what if the game would have been sent without being prepaid? The responsibility of both parties (the way they acted) would have been the same probably. Do you think that the seller would have been entitled to ask for a half refund in this case? Or, perhaps in this case the seller would have really cared about insuring the game for its real value, to avoid this situation.

If the answer is yes, and he would have insured the item for it’s real value when the item was not prepaid, then he should have also asked the buyer about the declared value when the item was prepaid, before declaring low value on it’s own, and it would sound reasonable to ask him for a total refund.

In any case, the buyer deserves at least half of the money back. IMHO, looking at this mess from outside, both parties acted under well faith and they should share their misfortune at 50%. This things never have a satisfactory solution for everybody.

Actually, even if you declared full value, it would have only be covered for 10,000 yen.

Extra insurance costs more.

I would say christophe is responsible for 10,000 yen (about 80-100$).

c.t.h said:

Actually, even if you declared full value, it would have only be covered for 10,000 yen.

Extra insurance costs more.

I would say christophe is responsible for 10,000 yen (about 80-100$).

Click to expand...

This is really a good point.

A very good point. I didn't know that.
Actually, how do the Post Office know what it was declared at? Is there any connection with the green sticker with EMS? Do you state the value on the receipt too? If not, then the green sticker is lost and you can still claim the 10,000 as long as you can prove Matrimelee is worth it (Easy enough).
Or did Christophe state a low value on two forms?

I never declare the value low unless the buyer specifically asks for it. It's wise not to assume what the buyer wants, and always ask. When the buyer requests the value to be declared lower than what it is, then it is implied that he/she takes full responsibility if the item is lost/damaged. If you want it insured, then request it, but if you do so you must realize that you can't have it insured for more than you declare it (I tried this and looked stupid at the P.O.). So deffty is owed at least the amount that EMS normally charges. Just give him 10,000 yen and call it a lesson learned.

Actually, I proposed him better than 10,000 yens...
I proposed Defty 12,500 (to cover also his WU expense) and I thought it fair enough to cover our both mistakes and you told it, SonGohan, let's make it a good lesson for future deals.
Isn't it fair enough ?

-Yes, correct as we never talk about the declaration.

-Almost all buyer will assume that they are fully insure when using EMS service,
unless they know the default tax amount in their country and asked the seller to declare a low value before shipping.

-Let me ask a question in simple, will you(buyer wants a partial refund if the item was shipped and declare as lost?)
"Its the post office fault , not my fault." sounds good?

-Its the buyer responsible to notify the seller they want to delare a low value to avoid tax if he want to take the risk.
Even if tax is imposed, its still better than getting item lost and get partial refund.

And if the seller declare as a low value without asking the buyer or without the buyer consent, its the seller own risk taking and not the buyer fault.

Like what I said earlier, I would bear full responsible if I agreeded in the first place.

But In this case I did not say anything about declaring a low value nor Christope had ask me anything before he shipped the item.
He declare as a low value assuming on his previous transactions without my knowledge and now when the items went missing, I need to pay half responsible for about happen?

-I do remember about what people said about old members or new members or good reputation or good reference to whoever ship first.

I never ask him to ship first despite he only got a few reference, or anything, I pay swiftly with western union when he said he don't accept paypal.

And only hope to get my game or a full refund now, it this my fault?

Unless you specifically asked for it to be fully insured, you can't expect a person to insure your parcel. EMS just happens to have a flat insurance rate on it, you can request more if you like, but it will ultimately be up to you to pay the extra fees. No reason why the seller should pay the extra to have it fully insured unless he said he would otherwise.

I agree that 12,500 yen is a good call. I mean, nobody planned on any of this to happen, and there were mistakes on both parts (deffty by not requesting it to be fully insured, and christphe by declaring low value).

If I am to understand correctly, Christophe plans on refunding you the amount that EMS insures for max, even though he's not getting it from EMS, but his own pocket. I think this is the best outcome for both parties. Even if you pretend that he didn't declare low value, the most he could get from the lost parcel is still 10,000 yen, and he's offering this + your bank transfer fees. I think this is the most fair, because it's clearly nobody's fault that it was lost.

Deffty, to answer your question : Of course it is the EMS responsibility, not ours.

And once again, I was not supposed to guess the 'default' way of doing or I should say the way of doing you were thinking.
I mean, I would have declared the full amount and after reception, some buyers would complain because he had to pay taxes and I am responsible of this bacause I was not intelligent enough to put a low value instead.
Now, because of a loss, the buyer tells me that I did not declare the full amount and I am responsible as well...
We can't do like I would say some case by case.
You expected things but we did not talked about it during the deal because for both of us it was clear in our mind.
But it is clear that we misunderstood on this critical point.

To SonGohan:
Of course the money comes out from my pocket.

I believe 50/50 is fair in this instance. Post is never guaranteed and you will always take a risk when dealing with the post. Every time I received items EMS, i was prepared to not receive them.


Sorry, but suck it up, pay some stupid tax and move on.

wait a minute

if Christophe gives Alex 12,500 yen (basically half) then Alex is out of pocket around 100usd

but when Christophe sticks in a claims form for the 10,000yen which is automatically insured with ems he will get that back plus shipping which would be around 12,500 yen i guess

so when the deal is sorted and ems has paid out Alex is out of pocket 100usd whereas Christophe still has the full amount that Alex paid him - therefore Christophe hasnt lost a dime

is that fair?????????

i reckon you should add the compensation you will get from ems ontop of the total already sent and then half it down the middle - then at least both of you will be out 50usd

does that make sense to anybody else

buster_broon said:

wait a minute

if Christophe gives Alex 12,500 yen (basically half) then Alex is out of pocket around 100usd

but when Christophe sticks in a claims form for the 10,000yen which is automatically insured with ems he will get that back plus shipping which would be around 12,500 yen i guess

so when the deal is sorted and ems has paid out Alex is out of pocket 100usd whereas Christophe still has the full amount that Alex paid him - therefore Christophe hasnt lost a dime

is that fair?????????

i reckon you should add the compensation you will get from ems ontop of the total already sent and then half it down the middle - then at least both of you will be out 50usd

does that make sense to anybody else

Click to expand...

What is fair and what is right are sometimes two different things. Life is not fair.