My conclusion..Neo Geo is a collector's system.

Ruffian · Jan 5, 2002

Before I get flamed for my topic let me explain what I mean... I have been lurking this forum for quite awhile now (2 months plus) before just now posting. I was seriously considering purchasing a NEO GEO system and I consider myself quite a serious fan of video games in general. I have been playing vid games at least 20+ years of my life. However, for the LIFE of me there's nothing in the world that could justify paying the prices that NEO carts go for. I don't even see how NEO GEO fans can justify paying average prices of around $200 for a home cart =|. Even the _cheapest_ MVS at the very minimum costs the same as a NEW Ps2/xbox/gamecube release and this is 10 year old technology. After lurking here and talking with fellow vid game enthusiasts I know in real life the consensus seems to be that the NEO GEO prices are largely inflationary contrary to demand. I think the NEO GEO scene has been overrun with collector's/speculators looking to cash in on the inflationary pricing. This whole setup seems remarkably like the comic book scene in the early '90s when you had books that were not all that great but deemed "rare" and inflated 50-100x over book value. Guess what happened to that scene? It crashed overnight once everyone figured out what a load of b.s. it was. I'm not saying that SNK games aren't quality they are..especially considering it's a 10 year old system but there's no way anyone should be paying over $50 for a AES cart.

I would honestly hate to see genuine vid game fans get burned in the longrun from this hobby. That's why I feel totally justified in defaulting to the ROM-MAME scene to avoid paying these outrageous MVS/AES cart prices. If the NEO GEO system today went for around $99 and the carts were on average $25-40 I could easily get into it and i'm sure a lot of vid game lovers would snatch up the neo-geo too. Again, it seems that a lot of the rare/collector's mentality is pure hype. Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that Twinkle star sprites and Kizuna encounter is a _good_ game by today's standards? Or even justifying the 800+ price tag? I played both of these on an emulator and I almost laughed at the silly graphics and generally poor conceptual gameplay.

NickD · Jan 5, 2002

Originally posted by Ruffian:
Even the _cheapest_ MVS at the very minimum costs the same as a NEW Ps2/xbox/gamecube release and this is 10 year old technology.

I've read your entire post but I must disagree here... The so-called "today standard" makes great games looking bad just because they're not 3d or doesn't use the lastest in technology. Hardware never made a game and althought I understand some of your points, most of them are probably justify by the fact that you only played the Neo on a EMU and never on the real machine itself. There's a whole world between the two. Concerning the prices of carts, I would rather buy a 100$ MVS game that's awesome than 3 PS2 or XBox game that sucks. Most of the newer games are all centered around graphics anyway and the graphics whore are all drooling over them. I would gladly trade my PS2 for a MSX-2 (the computer not the game <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">) with Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake any day and buy a DVD player. It's just normal to pay to get something that's:

1) rare... you don't find a Neo game (MVS or AES) like you can find a PS2, Xbox, GC or even SNES games.

2) awesome... I wouldn't buy crap games on any systems anyway.

3) still running after 10 years... NO system have been able to pull that off and still continued to have an extremely strong fan base like SNK has.

Lee Gray · Jan 5, 2002

I would rather own a neo geo over any new technology system any day of the week and thats why I do <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

NeoGML · Jan 5, 2002

I can say with a straight face that Kizuna Encounter is a good game.

it's obviously not for non-hardcore fighting fans, and people who drool over eye candy and the latest game dripping with billions of polygons, but anyhow... tastes are tastes.

Don't want to spend that much on Neo-Geo? that's fine. then don't.

You want to go play emulators and roms? that's fine, go ahead.

I'm not stopping you, cause i can't really say that i care.

Personally, i like these games enough to spend money on them, especially the KOF games.

But some people, most people, aren't like me, and they couldn't justify spending that much on a game.

Oh well.

Ruffian · Jan 5, 2002

NickD,

Actually, I have played Neo Geo games on a full MVS cab before. I was generally impressed back then with SNK titles and still am but they still don't warrant the $150-200 average pricetag you see on carts. The price is my main problem with the system..it's a collector's market right now and not really a player's market. I know new hardware never makes the game however there are quite a few great AAA titles on ps2 these days as well. You using Metal gear solid 2 as a base comparison of ps2 gameplay is in my opinion misleading and false. MSG2 is a very genre specific game and doesn't represent what some or even most ps2 games are like. Look at Grand theft Auto 3, ICO, Devil May cry, Gran Turismo 3 if you want something innovative and as an example of what new gen hardware can accomplish.

I think 2d can certainly be improved on but it's hard to do so when great systems like neo-geo are relegated to being collector curios and not really open to a market where it can succeed.

Also..a game being Rare is only good for a collector/speculator, it has no real meaning to a real vid game player. Rare does not make a game good. Like I have said i've played some of the neo-geo's "rarest" games (twinkle star sprites, kazuna) and have had to stifle laughs everytime.

KaedesDisciple · Jan 5, 2002

Originally posted by Ruffian:

I would honestly hate to see genuine vid game fans get burned in the longrun from this hobby. That's why I feel totally justified in defaulting to the ROM-MAME scene to avoid paying these outrageous MVS/AES cart prices. If the NEO GEO system today went for around $99 and the carts were on average $25-40 I could easily get into it and i'm sure a lot of vid game lovers would snatch up the neo-geo too. Again, it seems that a lot of the rare/collector's mentality is pure hype. Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that Twinkle star sprites and Kizuna encounter is a _good_ game by today's standards? Or even justifying the 800+ price tag? I played both of these on an emulator and I almost laughed at the silly graphics and generally poor conceptual gameplay.

And what, if you didn't even have the money to pay the "outrageous" prices for a new game on any system, would that then automatically make you "feel totally justified" in downloading the rom and/or burning the game? Nice to know that if I can't afford something that I can "feel totally justified" in stealing it. Thanks for clearing that up for us, because we haven't been arguing this point for, gee, I don't know, a bit longer than the two months you've been "lurking" here? It's a wonder what a little knowledge and a loud mouth can produce. Ooh, and you're pulling your vast knowledge about the NEO from an emulator, wow what an expert.
I don't buy the games personally (because I can't afford them), but I don't try to impose my opinion and slam the people who do it. More power to them IMO.

NeoGML · Jan 5, 2002

mmmm....

by the way, i own Dreamcast, PS2, and saturn, and i agree that there are AAA titles on PS2 right now.

Yet, i still like my neo games over them.

Ruffian · Jan 5, 2002

Originally posted by Kaede's Disciple:
And what, if you didn't even have the money to pay the "outrageous" prices for a new game on any system, would that then automatically make you "feel totally justified" in downloading the rom and/or burning the game? Nice to know that if I can't afford something that I can "feel totally justified" in stealing it. Thanks for clearing that up for us, because we haven't been arguing this point for, gee, I don't know, a bit longer than the two months you've been "lurking" here? It's a wonder what a little knowledge and a loud mouth can produce. Ooh, and you're pulling your vast knowledge about the NEO from an emulator, wow what an expert.
I don't buy the games personally (because I can't afford them), but I don't try to impose my opinion and slam the people who do it. More power to them IMO.

Considering that SNK is pretty much dead and the fact that carts are now owned by arrogant people with a collector's mentality like yourself then yes, I do feel quite justified in avoiding being fleeced for this vid game hobby. For your information i've probably been playing SNK games a hell of a lot longer in my 20 years of gaming than you have which prompted me to go back and hunt those roms for nostalgia's sake. This all led me to plan on buying a system w/carts but seeing how carts are now a speculator's goldmine i've opted against it.

As far as my "slamming" anyone, I didn't slam a single person in my initial post.

kernow · Jan 5, 2002

the neo is for the hardcore , its as simple as that, the only people prepared to pay silly prices for games are hardcore gamers or collectors with extreme prices..

man, I felt bad paying £100 GBP for kof98, being a poor student n shit, but I know its worth every penny, and I love my AES to bits..

I would ditch all my other machines before it went, it takes me back to playing MVS when I was 13 (Samsho1 ffs, ff2, kof94 etc)

its for the fanatics!

NickD · Jan 5, 2002

Originally posted by Ruffian:
NickD,
You using Metal gear solid 2 as a base comparison of ps2 gameplay is in my opinion misleading and false. MSG2 is a very genre specific game and doesn't represent what some or even most ps2 games are like.

Huh?? I never mentioned MGS2 in my post... I said that I would gladly trade back my PS2 to play MG 2: Solid Snake on the MSX-2 computer which was release in 1990 (MG2). So no, it has nothing to do with my hate toward MGS2 has being deceptive because I'm such a fan of the MG series (Can you read my mind <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">). Anyway, I agree there is some games that are good but not as fun (for me) as other on 16 bits systems and even 8bits system.

It all comes down to one thing: ONESELF

If you don't want to pay like NeoGML said then fine. I'm not here to convince you to. I was just stating my opinion why I was paying 100+ for MVS Neo games.

Heck I would pay a lot for Contra 3 on the SNES if it wasn't widely available in flea market and such.

gargoyle7 · Jan 5, 2002

I dont think Ruffian has attacked anyone here.

I actually agree with much of what you said, well stated. However my dedication to the quality of SNK games is a little more resolute than Ruffians <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> . I feel %100 confident in diverting my $$ to MVS carts rather than PS2 hardware.

I definitely respect ur opinion though.....

The Neo Geo will always be a 'nitch' system, and I think thats for the best.

EDIT: I do want to add that I DO NOT like or agree with how some people/collectors become elitist with the Neo, IMO that is missing the point of gaming entirely

Lee (garg7) http://www.neogeotemple.com

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: gargoyle7 ]

NickD · Jan 5, 2002

Sorry, browser mistake...

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: NickD ]

KaedesDisciple · Jan 5, 2002

Originally posted by Ruffian:

Considering that SNK is pretty much dead and the fact that carts are now owned by arrogant people with a collector's mentality like yourself then yes, I do feel quite justified in avoiding being fleeced for this vid game hobby. For your information i've probably been playing SNK games a hell of a lot longer in my 20 years of gaming than you have which prompted me to go back and hunt those roms for nostalgia's sake. This all led me to plan on buying a system w/carts but seeing how carts are now a speculator's goldmine i've opted against it.

As far as my "slamming" anyone, I didn't slam a single person in my initial post.

Wow, I guess I've really been shot down this time, someone who doesn't even know me has the balls to say that I haven't played as many SNK games as he has. Aw, I guess I should settle back into my pointless life now, as nothing could compare to his supreme 20 years of gaming knowledge over me.

And ooh, I love the "collector's mentality" that I've been so hastily branded with. For your information, I have only one rule when buying games: I buy what I will play. I don't ever want to get to the point where I buy games to look pretty on a shelf. That's not what they were made for IMO. If anybody else does that, that's their business. Next time, don't misconstrue my point so badly. I'm done now <IMG SRC="smilies/glee.gif" border="0">

Verbatum · Jan 5, 2002

Well, it all gets down to this: I love the games. Yep, sometimes they are really expensive, but if I like the game enough, I'll buy it. To me, games are a form of art, and I enjoy them as such. If the art moves me enough, I am willing to pay the cash.

You bring up one good point: The new systems really do have some wonderful and artistic games, many of which people don't really take notice of. And you know what, if Silent Hill 2 cost as much as some Neo games, I would still buy it.

So, for me, it is the enjoyment of the artform, and I find SNK to have some of the best. This is all part of my own opinion of course, and you are free to disagree.

300 Meg Pro Gear Spec · Jan 5, 2002

<IMG SRC="smilies/tickled.gif" border="0"> Ha HA your soo funny , PS2 has quality games !! <IMG SRC="smilies/tickled.gif" border="0"> Thats a good one !! Are you still going to be playing your PS2 games in 10 years , Yeah right ,you won't even own a PS2 because you'll sell it to buy the next "GENERATION CONSOLE" . <IMG SRC="smilies/tickled.gif" border="0"> You know what I'll be playing in 10 years , you guessed it my Neo Geo and NES , because quality lasts through time , like good music . I 've played Samuri Showdown and KOF , more hours then you will EVER play on your PS2 . To me $300 dollars is worth a game I will play forever .

GamersAbyss · Jan 5, 2002

Well folks I see it like this The Neo is the Bomb!! Now dont get me wrong I have every system under the sun!! Arcade, PS2, Xbox, Game Cube and all the older stuff as well!! This is my opinion on the Neo!!

Neo Geo=Arcade Hardware brought home!!

The fact is the Neo was never meant for home use and SNK brought out the Home Cart System as a pet project more than a main stream system like a Nintendo 64!!

I to have been in this business or shall I say playing games for 20+ years (I dont believe you stated you were in the business) and I have always considered the Neo Geo as a beautifully made Super Gun with a sexy black shell!!

The Neo Geo is Arcade perfect!! It has always been Arcade perfect and the first place you still see a new Neo game is still the Arcade, which brings me to this point.

If you want the newest Arcade hardware even playing it on a Super Gun is going to set you back far more in cash than any Neo Home console game. Say you buy a Mas Systems Super Gun and a new Naomi with Capcom VS SNK 2 your looking at spending over 2 grand!!

If you are totally nuts with the Video Game scene like most of us are then if Neo is not part of your collection your collection is deffinately missing something.

And on a final note I just got Twinkle Star Sprites for my Home cart in today and the game kicks total ass <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

300 Meg Pro Gear Spec · Jan 5, 2002

You think you will lose money in paying for a Neo game ? What are all of your PS and PS2 games going to be worth in 10 years , 5 cents at Funcoland ,when you paid $50 dollors for them now .Talk about loseing money .

Loopz · Jan 5, 2002

This is an interesting argument, but I gotta say that very few games can match the replay that the SNK classics offer. You could scrape together a decent MVS cab setup for about $500, and then enjoy shit like Samurai Shodown 2 or KOF 94 for like $15 a pop. It's all good if you avoid the collector's cesspool the AES market has become thanks to certain people.

Kage-Ryu · Jan 5, 2002

Originally posted by 300 Meg Pro Gear Spec:
You think you will lose money in paying for a Neo game ? What are all of your PS and PS2 games going to be worth in 10 years , 5 cents at Funcoland ,when you paid $50 dollors for them now .Talk about loseing money .

Actually, there are some PS games that are worth some money. Look on ebay sometime...

As for the lame "ps2 has good games? haha" bit, as far as newer consoles go, ps2 is the best. IMO at least. <IMG SRC="smilies/makeface.gif" border="0">

Kage-Ryu · Jan 6, 2002

Oh and i forgot something. I would say most of the people out there that buy psx,psx2 games buy them to play...not so that they can resell them in 10 years for lots o money.

Why have it if your not gonna play it?

BC_Gambit · Jan 6, 2002

I agree with Loopz. If you enjoy the games, get an MVS cab and play pretty much every game (except KoF2K1) for a much more reasonable price than the home carts.

Home carts are rare and expensive for the most part, so of course the more collector oriented neo fans will go after them.

If you're only interested in the games, get an MVS board and a supergun , or an MVS and a cab and enjoy!

chimpmeister · Jan 6, 2002

Well written and interesting post, Ruffian. You do make a lot of good points, and I agree with many of them. The Neo home cart system IS highly collectible and prices for games, at least some games, are outrageous. Not ALL of the games are that high though, for example some of the best games are quite cheap, including Samurai Shodown 1/2/3, Fatal Fury 2/Special, NAM-75, and others. Some of these games (such as the SS series) are by themselves worth the price of admission . . . SS1, 2, and 3 are all masterpieces that have great depth and quality all by themselves.

However, having said that, MVS games are nowhere near the prices of home cart games. You can get many great MVS carts, as others have pointed out here, for $10-$50 each, only the rarer titles sell for more than that. If you have space for an MVS cabinet, that's definitely the way to go. If not, a supergun is an alternative, but you might want to avoid the MAS Super NOVA or HGA systems and go with the Japanese Sigma system, it seems to be of much higher quality than the others.

I must also say that Gamers Abyss hit the nail on the head with his post about the Neo, he expressed exactly how I feel about the Neo and its games. Very well said . . .

As for playing emulated versions of these games, that only really works if you put together an emu arcade cabinet . . . playing on a tiny PC monitor, even a 19" or 21", just doesn't cut it . . .

NSX-T · Jan 6, 2002

Originally posted by Ruffian:
Before I get flamed for my topic let me explain what I mean... I have been lurking this forum for quite awhile now (2 months plus) before just now posting. I was seriously considering purchasing a NEO GEO system and I consider myself quite a serious fan of video games in general. I have been playing vid games at least 20+ years of my life. However, for the LIFE of me there's nothing in the world that could justify paying the prices that NEO carts go for. I don't even see how NEO GEO fans can justify paying average prices of around $200 for a home cart =|. Even the _cheapest_ MVS at the very minimum costs the same as a NEW Ps2/xbox/gamecube release and this is 10 year old technology. After lurking here and talking with fellow vid game enthusiasts I know in real life the consensus seems to be that the NEO GEO prices are largely inflationary contrary to demand. I think the NEO GEO scene has been overrun with collector's/speculators looking to cash in on the inflationary pricing. This whole setup seems remarkably like the comic book scene in the early '90s when you had books that were not all that great but deemed "rare" and inflated 50-100x over book value. Guess what happened to that scene? It crashed overnight once everyone figured out what a load of b.s. it was. I'm not saying that SNK games aren't quality they are..especially considering it's a 10 year old system but there's no way anyone should be paying over $50 for a AES cart.

I would honestly hate to see genuine vid game fans get burned in the longrun from this hobby. That's why I feel totally justified in defaulting to the ROM-MAME scene to avoid paying these outrageous MVS/AES cart prices. If the NEO GEO system today went for around $99 and the carts were on average $25-40 I could easily get into it and i'm sure a lot of vid game lovers would snatch up the neo-geo too. Again, it seems that a lot of the rare/collector's mentality is pure hype. Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that Twinkle star sprites and Kizuna encounter is a _good_ game by today's standards? Or even justifying the 800+ price tag? I played both of these on an emulator and I almost laughed at the silly graphics and generally poor conceptual gameplay.

You are half right. For example, there are a lot of people here who are really gamers that can still afford any Neo Geo games, but are labeled "collector, driving up the market" for it <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . I

on this topic you have started, because you have just raise the price of some games. The conclusion I have found is that it is always a newbie, Neo Geo wannbe, or a poorer gamer who raise the prices (an example is this thread). <IMG SRC="smilies/shame.gif" border="0">

RiotoftheBlood · Jan 6, 2002

Ruffian, I understand where you are coming from, but I think you've overestimated the amount of inflation that has occured. The Neo Geo was always expensive, even well before it was a colelctors item. The console originally sold for (correct me if I'm wrong) $1000. I paid $180 for my console. Although that is atypical, especially with the recent surge of demand for consoles, the price is still well under $1000, and it's evidence that everything isn't quite so inflated. Also, AES carts don't sell for $50, because they were typically $300 new. The Neo Geo, especially the home format, never was intended to be for everyone.

Another point is that Neo Geo games ARE rare in general, because they were never produced in quantities anywhere near SNES, Genesis etc. games. This rarity has surely helped determined prices as they are today.

Ruffian · Jan 6, 2002

Originally posted by RiotoftheBlood:
Ruffian, I understand where you are coming from, but I think you've overestimated the amount of inflation that has occured. The Neo Geo was always expensive, even well before it was a colelctors item. The console originally sold for (correct me if I'm wrong) $1000.

Another point is that Neo Geo games ARE rare in general, because they were never produced in quantities anywhere near SNES, Genesis etc. games. This rarity has surely helped determined prices as they are today.

I just wanted to followup on these two points. I did account for the fact that the Neo Geo was the elite system of the 90's..the price back then was totally justified. Back then the SNES/Genesis were nowhere close to coming out with an arcade worthy port. The Neo Geo was pretty much the _ONLY_ system in the market that could faithfully do it all the way up until at least '96-97. However, the Neo Geo these days is seriously outdated thus there should have been a MUCH bigger depreciation in the hardware/carts than what we see now. I know the carts weren't made in large quantities but still there's plenty of vid game alternatives these days to warrant prices being lowered. Most of the new generation console systems are easily capable of porting most arcade games these days and also at a fraction of the price that we see the Neo-Geo going for. A lot of the uniqueness in the Neo-Geo back then was due to its ability to have arcade precise games.

I would not be surprised if SNK decided to come back and become a 3rd party developer for one of those new gen consoles a lot of the so called "hardcore" neo fans always rag on. I seriously doubt SNK will try its hand at continuing making console systems for a small niche only when it simply cannot compete with 3 giants (Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo) in hardware Research and developement.

My conclusion..Neo Geo is a collector's system.

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