Just another thought about emulation - please read

Kazuya_UK · Nov 4, 2001

I was just wondering... I know most people here are completely against emulators (I understand this viewpoint and also agree to a certain extent), but what about the Neo Geo CD emulators? Is it wrong for me to boot up the few Neo Geo CD's I have (originals which I bought, not pirate copies) in an emulator instead of the real machine? You get some advantages when running them through an emulator too, like faster loading times than the real machine...

So, provided the person using them actually OWNS some *REAL* Neo Geo CD's (in fact, one of the recent CD emu's has actually taken steps to prevent pirate CD's being used), what's the general feeling about Neo Geo CD emulators?

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Kazuya_UK ]

nick_th_fury · Nov 4, 2001

originals which I bought, not pirate copies

I seem to remember this debate coming up along time ago before.

My opinion, is that if u actully own a neocdrom drive, & have original games,
there's really no question.
Your totally within your rights to do that.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: nick_th_fury ]

LWK · Nov 4, 2001

I have many neo cd's, I also own a cdz and regular cd system. If you can vouch for owning the system and games then you can legally emulate.
If you own just the cd's but your system broke, I still think its okay.
Remember its not the emulator thats considered illegal its the ROMS.
Its perfectly fine to DL roms, of games you already own.
However DL'ing roms of games you do not own beyond 24 hours(demo testing period), then your breaking the law <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Lord Wolfgang Krauser ]

ShinIoriYagami · Nov 4, 2001

Originally posted by Lord Wolfgang Krauser:
I have many neo cd's, I also own a cdz and regular cd system. If you can vouch for owning the system and games then you can legally emulate.
If you own just the cd's but your system broke, I still think its okay.
Remember its not the emulator thats considered illegal its the ROMS.
Its perfectly fine to DL roms, of games you already own.
However DL'ing roms of games you do not own beyond 24 hours(demo testing period), then your breaking the law <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Lord Wolfgang Krauser ]

Emulation is cool to a extent'.

Rade K · Nov 4, 2001

Well, the fact of the matter is that the BIOS images needed to get the CD emulator running are also copyrighted materials so I guess if you wanted to be totally within your rights, you would have to own the actual system.

If you owned the actual games but did not own the system and were playing them emulated, you are doing something illegal. Of course, sinse the status of who owns the BIOS are now in question, the validity is still in question.

Very grey.

Daisuke Jigen · Nov 4, 2001

I think it is great. I am a cart guy, but I recieved a neo CD as a gift. Short of buying another neo, the emulator is the only way I can play it.

elbarto · Nov 4, 2001

I don't really see a problem with it.

Since my PC-Engine CD drive broke, I've been using Magic Engine to run my PCE CDs (all originals btw) while I look for a replacement machine.

Kazuya_UK · Nov 4, 2001

Yeah, the BIOS is something I forgot about... I gotta admit that I don't have a Neo CD system right now, so even though I have original games I may be breaking the law (technically) by using an emulator to play them... but to be honest I don't really feel bad doing this in the same way that I'd feel bad if I boot up and play something like KOF '99 MVS in an emulator (I don't yet own that MVS cart).

On the other hand, I think I am legally in my rights to boot up, say... Last Blade in an emulator, as I own both an MVS and that game <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

FeelGood · Nov 4, 2001

perhaps there is a clause that allows us to play emulated games of lesser expense (neo CD) as long ass we own the game of higher expense (Rom).

For example - I own KoF 98 on AES - therefore I should be able to play it any way I like on any emulator, seeing as KoF 98 on AES is the current most expensive version of KoF 98.

Ok, so there is no clause that allows this, but it would be neat if there was.

Zevious Zoquis · Nov 4, 2001

My feelings about emulators are that they do far less damage to game developers than we are led to believe. I have MAME on my PC right now with several neo roms. I don't own a NEO system of any kind so in effect, I am getting the games for free. The question is, has SNK lost me as a potential customer becuase I can get the games for free on my pc? Nope, not at all becuase the fact is I was never a customer to begin with. If I had the desire or funds to buy a Neo system, I would. But I don't. I doubt very many people who are truly considering buying a NEO system have their minds changed by the fact they can download the roms and play them on their PC becuase playing them on the PC just isn't the same experience as playing them on the neo. Now I'm not talking about pirated copies of the games that you can play on the systems, just about emulators that allow you to play the games from one system on a different platform from what they were designed on. Most of the time, the emu's don't work very well anyway.

nick_th_fury · Nov 4, 2001

far less damage to game developers than we are led to believe. I have MAME on my PC right now with several neo roms. I don't own a NEO system of any kind so in effect, I am getting the games for free. The question is, has SNK lost me as a potential customer becuase I can get the games for free on my pc? Nope, not at all becuase the fact is I was never a customer to begin with.

Which just goes to show, you do not deserve to play the neo games.
You may want to, but if you were not a customer of SNK in any form, you have no right to their products.

Now, far less damaging.
Well that's your opinion.
Too bad there are no facts you can base that on, except wishful thinking.

Now for us naysayers, who beleive the emu scene has hurt comapnies like snk in a negative way.
The fact that companies try & fight rom dumping to the best of their ability is very good evidance.

If roms were not hurting them, they wouldnt waste resources fighting them.

If rom dumping helped them, they would advertise it's availabilty.
In the hopes of increasing their overall sales.

Let's face it, the facts dictate otherwise.

If I had the desire or funds to buy a Neo system, I would. But I don't

Now, to be blunt, this throws me.
This is a site dedicated to the neogeo, its players & its collectors.

If you are not interested in the Neo, what are you doing here?

If you enjoy the emu, & that's all your interested in,
why are you here, instead of posting at a pro emu bbs?

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: nick_th_fury ]

Wolf · Nov 4, 2001

Originally posted by nick_th_fury:

Which just goes to show, you do not deserve to play the neo games.

Who died and made you god of all things Neo? You have no right to make a statement like that.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Wolf ]

Caris Nautilus · Nov 4, 2001

emulators are for pussy bitches, nuff said.

if they can live with that fact, then let em eat their hearts out.

Viewpoint · Nov 4, 2001

Originally posted by Wolf:
Who died and made you god of all things Neo? You have no right to make a statement like that.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Wolf ]

Actually I agree with it.

He hasn't givin one red cent to SNK in support for it so why should he be allowed to have an opinon when he obviously thinks that spending money on SNK is pointless.

Caris Nautilus · Nov 4, 2001

Originally posted by BonusKun:
Actually I agree with it.

He hasn't givin one red cent to SNK in support for it so why should he be allowed to have an opinon when he obviously thinks that spending money on SNK is pointless.

no pay, no play.

if you don't have the money to buy a porsche, you ain't gonna get to drive one unless you steal it.

neo games are just easier to steal, but it's the same thing. if you don't pay, you don't deserve to play, you don't gotta be the neo god to understand this fact.

Viewpoint · Nov 4, 2001

Extra note in my post above. Even people at On.com inculding some of their mods agree.

If you support SNK in any way shape fashion or form then you deserve the respect of being a fan of SNK.

Him saying he hasn't spent any money on SNK means he's should be allowed to play any SNK games.

That is just being a plain open thief.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: BonusKun ]

Huxley · Nov 4, 2001

Originally posted by Drift King EX:
no pay, no play.

if you don't have the money to buy a porsche, you ain't gonna get to drive one unless you steal it.

neo games are just easier to steal, but it's the same thing. if you don't pay, you don't deserve to play, you don't gotta be the neo god to understand this fact.

well said!

However, I think emulation is OK in several situations. Educational (dont laugh) purposes, Library/Historical use and the situation Kazuya_UK is in. I just dont think people should emulate if they never intend to pay. That, as Drift King EX said, is stealing. And from a company like SNK? Jeez!

nick_th_fury · Nov 4, 2001

Who died and made you god of all things Neo? You have no right to make a statement like that.

Thats about as stupid a question as ive seen in a long while.

It's the Law.

The Law says that is illegal.
It's illegal in pretty much every country.

Therefore, if you have not paid, you do not have a legal right.
Ie, you do not deserve it.
Simple.

Now do i care if someone plays a rom.
No.
I also don't care if someone jaywalks.
However, I can tell the difference between,
no one caring if you jaywalk, & having a "Right to Jaywalk".

LWK · Nov 4, 2001

Originally posted by Wolf:
Who died and made you god of all things Neo? You have no right to make a statement like that.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Wolf ]

People can say whatever they please IMO.
Just as you said that.

Who died and made you god of all things Neo?

Use your own words.

nick_th_fury · Nov 4, 2001

Him saying he hasn't spent any money on SNK means he's should be allowed to play any SNK games.

Damn straight.
If anyone deserved to play snk games,
I'm sure snk would have sent them the games for free.

Meanwhile, the rest of us had to earn the right.
Put a quater in an MVS, buy a port, buy a cart.
Whatever.

Games are a luxury item.
No ones deserves any of em.

Wolf · Nov 4, 2001

I'm not saying I condone emulators in all contexts. What I am saying is that you can't pass judgement on people by saying "this guy deserves to play but this guy doesn't". It's that kind of elitist crap that really doesn't make this scene unfriendly to newcomers. You are getting caught up on the fact that the emulator in question uses a real Neo bios instead of reverse engineering the entire thing. I own over 20 home carts and have spent thousands of dollars in aquiring these products. I don't judge people on how they play the neo games. All I care is that they share the same interest, the neo games. You all bitch about prices, but imagine what would happen if these rom/cd emu people started buying hardware. I can garantee you that almost everyone on these boards has at least tried neo emulation and that a great number keep secret the fact that they only play that way. You can say that these people playing roms killed the system, but most of those people wouldn't have even bothered to buy the homecarts because their interest level is so low in that the are only motivated to pirate. It's not like these pirates would actually buy the carts if you took away emulation before it started. The majority just wouldn't play. I play the way I want to play (on home cart) and I don't give a sh_t about how other people want to play. Those guys with sidewinders know how much it sucks to play that way.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Wolf ]

nick_th_fury · Nov 4, 2001

can't pass judgement on people by saying "this guy deserves to play but this guy doesn't". It's that kind of elitist crap that really doesn't make this scene unfriendly to newcomers

Na man, you are misreading me.

I do not care if people use emu's.
I do it. I use emus to make screen shots a games I own.

I don't pass judgement on that.
Like i said, I dont care.
What i do care about is being honest & truthful about it, when your speaking to me.
As a participant on this public bbs, these posts are for all of us.

If you don't own the game, you do not have the right to play it.
People do it all the time, but it's illegal.

So why try to justify it.
I'm just tired of people coming to neogeo bbs's, & wanting to justify what they do.

If you Jaywalk, you dont justify it.
You just do it.
Usually, people don't do it, then talk about it, then try & justify it.

NeoLord · Nov 4, 2001

Originally posted by Wolf:
I'm not saying I condone emulators in all contexts. What I am saying is that you can't pass judgement on people by saying "this guy deserves to play but this guy doesn't". It's that kind of elitist crap that really doesn't make this scene unfriendly to newcomers. You are getting caught up on the fact that the emulator in question uses a real Neo bios instead of reverse engineering the entire thing. I own over 20 home carts and have spent thousands of dollars in aquiring these products. I don't judge people on how they play the neo games. All I care is that they share the same interest, the neo games. You all bitch about prices, but imagine what would happen if these rom/cd emu people started buying hardware. I can garantee you that almost everyone on these boards has at least tried neo emulation and that a great number keep secret the fact that they only play that way. You can say that these people playing roms killed the system, but most of those people wouldn't have even bothered to buy the homecarts because their interest level is so low in that the are only motivated to pirate. It's not like these pirates would actually buy the carts if you took away emulation before it started. The majority just wouldn't play. I play the way I want to play (on home cart) and I don't give a sh_t about how other people want to play. Those guys with sidewinders know how much it sucks to play that way.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Wolf ]

I think you're missing Nick's point, Wolf. Nick was saying that people like Zevious
Zoquis will never truly support the Neo-Geo. Zevious just admitted -- no more than
12 posts above us -- that he would rather emulate Neo roms (for free I might add)
than support the Neo-Geo platform. As for Nick's comment: I can understand where
he is coming from. If this guy really cared about the Neo-Geo (and the time
spent to develop those games), he would purchase a Neo-Geo system. There's a
fine line between being a 'fan' and a 'supporter'. Anyone can download a Neo-Geo
ROM and call themselves an SNK/Neo 'fan', but for someone to be called a 'supporter', they need to support the platform with cold, hard cash.

Does this make Zevious' opinions invalid? Hardly... but does it limit the scope of his
opinion since he's never owned a Neo-Geo system? Yes, it does.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: NeoLord ]

Wolferaizer · Nov 5, 2001

Originally posted by Kazuya_UK:
Yeah, the BIOS is something I forgot about... I gotta admit that I don't have a Neo CD system right now, so even though I have original games I may be breaking the law (technically) by using an emulator to play them...

sshhh! not so loud, no one knows. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

i own a NeoCD myself & my lens abt to fucked up. i was planning to get a lens kit then my power adaptor went beserk. for me, NeoCD emu is just another alternative for my to plays my games. i dont care if some1 says illegal using bios/emu blah blah. as long as im a happy neo fan. well at least thank god, some1 manage to create exellent emu. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Takumaji · Nov 5, 2001

If you play original NeoCD games on an emulator, fine. Do it as long as you want. You have purchased the original stuff, and you can do what you like with it.

However, when the NeoCD emulator got released by a French gentleman who's name eludes me at the mo, it only took a couple of hours/days til the first NeoCD iso warez sitez had been set up. Coincidence?

This, and the need to use the copyrighted NeoCD bios file - which, like Rade correctly assumed, is legally bound to the NeoCD console itself - makes the NeoCD emu just another elegant way of playing Neo games for free; download the emu and some isos, burn them, and off we go. Btw., the NeoCD emu is programmed to *ignore* any CD copy protection - would this be necessary if only originals would be used?!

Again, I'm not totally against emulation, nor against the NeoCD emu in particular, it's just that IMO only 10 ppl out of 100 use emulation wisely (read: only d/l ROMs/isos if they own the original release).

On the other hand, I don't understand why even the relatively cheap Neo CDs get ripped. Almost any CD title (with the exception of two or three rarities) can be had for less than $50. eBay is full of em, so are many online shops.

Again, it's a matter of greed.

Just another thought about emulation - please read

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