State of the Member/Scammers Address -- Tirade on what's wrong.

I'm watching the forums more and talking less lately, as some people may have noticed.

A few situations have been popping up lately concerning alleged scammers and members who "bust" them or "have also been scammed" and people who "work hard at helping people." get out of these situations.

I'm growing increasingly (insert word here) with people calling for more measures to track scammers, calling out people, people quickly jumping the gun on exposing suspected scammers and coming out of the weeds on how they've been ripped off too.

I said this in a thread in the selling forum and I'll post it here for more exposure.

Where are you people when you have no vested interest in a transaction? How many of you will actually help another member out (pick a way to help) when they've fallen prey to a rip-off artist? Not many. I've seen it before.

I won't say that some people don't help. There's a bunch of people that step in to help when something goes bad. There are people who privately communicate with others when they know someone else is getting ripped off or about to be.
There are people who get scammed and let everyone know about it.

I'm distressed when I see people step out and say "He scammed me too!" or jump on the ride-someone-out-on-a-rail bandwagon.

This is not to say that it's a bad thing necesarily. Hell, I want a criminal free forum as much as *anyone* else.

My problem comes with the amount of talk people do with little or no follow through. How many have read the thread and replied with something along the "fuck him, get out" mentality?

I'm a former law-enforcement officer and I have a criminal law degree. There's a concept in policing called "community policing". To quickly summarize, it's when and officer gets off his ass, gets out in the community and *finds* problems, talks to people, alerts citizens to situations in their community. It's really effective and makes a difference.

There's also "classic policing" or the reactionary old-school policing.

How many of you fall into the latter? Many. It's disturbing. A lot of people have been ripped off, stay silent and come out when someone has the "set" to come out and say it. How much of that is the "BS-factor" I do not know.

If you want to help out, stop making threads about busting scammers, get off your ass and do something about it. If you had a deal and it went bad, contact other people and get more info. If someone you know gets ripped off or has a bad deal, HELP THEM. Even if you don't make a $$ off of it or are getting that "last precious cart" for your collection.

The best way to stop the *increasing* scammer activity is to actively participate in getting rid of them. Fuck the reactionary BS that's becoming increasingly prevalent.

I've noticed on this board that as vigilance has dropped, scamming has increased and it's a disturbing trend.

So, which category do you fall into?

(more to come.)

<small>[ May 06, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: VanillaThunder ]</small>

So, what exactly are you saying?

There are certain individuals (like Japhei and his many aliases) that some of us preach and preach about, yet it seems to fall on deaf ears. We still have people that are falling for his (amongst others) tricks. We can't exactly hold peoples hands during their transactions and since this site refuses to nominate a mod for the selling forums, what exactly are you suggesting we do?


Although a moderator isn't a sure fire cure, they would be able to head off pontential scammers at the pass (so to speak). They would know who all we had problems with in the past, and when shit hits the fan, they might be able to step in, email both parties in the transaction and try to come to some kind of middle ground. I have seen this in action on other bbs's and its quite effective. Basically they keep track of who is posting what, and if someone posts stuff that appears to be out of line (questionable listings or breaks the guidlines) they can lay the hammer down on them. They essentially become the God of that forum. GA use to do this on a regular basis, and it would be nice to have someone that would do it on a constant basis. But they would have to want the job to begin with. Cause I am sure it is a thankless job at that.

I can understand that this site doesn't want to be held responsible for what goes on in the Marketplace, they also need to realize that since they have a Marketplace to begin with that they should provide us with some type of counter measure. Otherwise eliminate the Marketplace.

most of these "scammers" are just kids trying to cash in on the great deals to be made here, but as kids, don't have the responsibility to follow through with all their deals, much less the foresight to tell which deals to avoid.

Sure, we have people like Tim Tews, Pichai, Joe Pusczek, Ralph Karels, Dion, etc, but they are not the ones you hear about weekly. Each week it's some kid - nismonotmugen for example - a kid. Kyo 2000 (Joshua Clifton), a very stupid and dickless kid.

I don't know how to avoid the adult scammers that suddenly turn on the community (like Karels did), but for the kids, I say just avoid dealing with them. You wouldn't do $100+ deals with teenagers outside the internet. Why make exceptions here?

I am of the mindset that the right place to begin would be in assigning a moderator to the Market Forums. This seems only logical since the other forums have one and those forums do not even really need them other than for offensive content.

In the selling forums there is the potential for people to loose money and/or items through subversive means and dishonest practices. If we truly want to help each other out, as many say they do, then this is the first, last, and only place to begin. Although it is true that we can not hold each others hands during deals, we can watch each others backs!

I guarantee that many current and potential scammers are reading this thread right now so as to educate themselves on how to be even sneakier in the ways that they scam. This is the perfect oportunity to let it be known to them and the rest of us that we are looking out for each other and that this scene will not/can not tolerate this BS any longer!

A mod is definitly a place to start here. I know that many a member has personal feelings, good and bad towards Gamers Abyss here. But, something that can not be denied is that GA cares about helping people get what is theirs, and more importantly he cares about finding and banning those that have done wrong. Gamers Abyss and Shawn may have had their differences in the past, but it would surely be in the best interests of the community as a whole for them to put that behind them and agree to do something about the problems that we have been experiencing in the Market Forums!

Even if alot of you do not agree with me that GA is the right man for the job, you should certainly see that a mod is needed for intervention purposes sometimes. Lets not let this get any worse than it already has. Being pro-active is the most logical means of defense against anymore scamming here on this BBS.

And if it does happen, we need to stick together!

Just some opinions from a NoOb wink

I remember Joe P (wing Zero). It's like he built up a following of trust and then used it to make a scam, and then book.

That is what I worry about sometimes. How many folks are here to develope short term trust, and then try to cause some shit? It's too much to think about and with almost every deal you make (yeah, I know there are the die hards you can trust-EW!) you take a risk.

Thats part of the thrill with making trades I guess. Sadly.

A lot of people just make these threads to "scare" the other person into paying them back. If the person is worried about their future sales on the site, they'll do something about it (like in some cases). If they don't pay the person back, the thread is still there and you could point GA or any other knowledgable person in that direction and basically say "this is what happened, how could I go about getting my money back". You've laid the foundation to get your money back, whether it be from scaring them into paying you back, or logged all of the info for the police to handle.

Also if mods were to be elected/nominated/held at gunpoint, we should really have 2. One from North America and then one from maybe one of the European nations. Due to the time zone differences this would help to catch this stuff before it escalates to crazy proportions.

Actually, I wanted to avoid the GA situation.

Honestly, I don't think a mod *needs* to be appointed. Instead of hoping someone will straighten out your problem or weed out the bad guys, why not do your homework first on people you buy from, have them ship first or ask others who dealt with them by searching their profile for previous posts/transactions? Why not tell others when a deal goes bad instead of taking it? Even if it's for 10 bucks?

My point was this.. there's a lot of talk about scammers/busting them.. whatever, but it seems like people only care when they have something to gain out of it. (I know, that's how people operate.. it's nature)

However, if people are more VIGILANT and go out and help snuff out the problems without an immediate buck to be gained.. it pays off for all of us in the long run. Work now for your investment to pay off by HONEST sellers/buyers

Don't talk the talk about helping out... just do it. Don't jump on the bandwagon.. inform others of your situation, help act against people who scam. If everyone is vigilant, scammers will dissapear.. there's easier places to make money. I've seen it happen on Arcade Forums.

I dunno what I'm really *getting* at if you think I have an agenda, really. I don't have one, just making a point.

I have been in the spotlight of bashing as of late, and would like to take this time to speak out that, the one who cries wolf is not always the victum. There are buyers out there that are scammers, just as there are sellers out there as scammers. I have dealt with both types, but I don't rage across the forums to deal with such topics, I deal with them as they were a personal transaction and not a public record. Those I have dealt with on these forums have been very satisfying deals and I have also made some friends.

However sometimes the "help" described by others in threads above: coming in a wave of attack the bad guy format is not a good tool for solving anyones problems, It only aggrivates the siuation with assumptions and tempers. If someone decides to post a negative comment about a transaction with you, it should be the next potential member to decide whether the seller was bad and the buyer was good, or the other side whch is never given much thought, the seller is good, but the buyer is bad.

Anyone here makes their own decisions. Do your homework on your items in question as a buyer and a seller.

People are people and one mans trash is another mans treasure.

Treat each other with respect, post details of your transaction for an FYI, not to verbally bash any other member or their reputation.

I would be for a forum where we could rate each other when we are involved in a transaction and then it graph out in an average similar to a poll results.

Just some thoughts, but I know for a fact there are a lot of fingers pointing at the innocent parties lately.

Supporting each other is good, but what I've been the victum of recently is rumor, gossip, hearsay, and lies.

This was a great site to come to when I first joined, I was trampled by the masses and I was left for dead. I am still here and will lead this forum back to a structured, informative and trust filled site if I have others who would like to see the same results.

Neo Geo Lives! buttrock

T_Smallz

VanillaThunder:
Actually, I wanted to avoid the GA situation.

Honestly, I don't think a mod *needs* to be appointed. Instead of hoping someone will straighten out your problem or weed out the bad guys, why not do your homework first on people you buy from, have them ship first or ask others who dealt with them by searching their profile for previous posts/transactions? Why not tell others when a deal goes bad instead of taking it? Even if it's for 10 bucks?

My point was this.. there's a lot of talk about scammers/busting them.. whatever, but it seems like people only care when they have something to gain out of it. (I know, that's how people operate.. it's nature)

However, if people are more VIGILANT and go out and help snuff out the problems without an immediate buck to be gained.. it pays off for all of us in the long run. Work now for your investment to pay off by HONEST sellers/buyers

Don't talk the talk about helping out... just do it. Don't jump on the bandwagon.. inform others of your situation, help act against people who scam. If everyone is vigilant, scammers will dissapear.. there's easier places to make money. I've seen it happen on Arcade Forums.

I dunno what I'm really *getting* at if you think I have an agenda, really. I don't have one, just making a point.

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Honestly, a mod for the selling forum won't be able to really help more than just someone who is informed and persistent. So yeah, don't talk about it, just do it.

But in the case of people that scam, what can you do?

1. make sure to keep track of your deals. If you pay by paypal, make sure you get items before chargebacks cannot be initiated.

2. pay by credit card, personal check, or escrow - make sure that your money can be traced.

3. Communicate with the seller frequently. If the seller seems like a flake, cancel the money order or paypal transaction.

***********************************************

1. If you're a seller, make sure to send everything with signature confirmation and tracking. If you create your USPS labels online (www.usps.com), you get tracking for free. Do it.

2. Never ship international except by EMS or FedEx. Declare full amount or ensure that buyer knows he/she bears full responsibility for items.

3. Respond to every query a buyer has promptly. You don't want to give the buyer excuses to chargeback the payment.

This is just hte common sense thinking that comes off the top of my head. Probably more you guys can add on.

I don't really understand what your point is VT. You tell people to stop 'jumping on the bandwagon' and just comming out for the witch hunts, and ask people to actually help combat scammers, but if there is a way to combat scammers other than sharing your experiences then I would like to hear about it.

Are you saying that those who are concerned about scammers should be going vigilante and keeping an eye on all transactions to spot any that look suspicious? To an extent that is something I already see happening - often when a selling post looks dubious for one reason or another, people chip in and start asking questions and telling potential buyers to be careful if appropriate. Without an actual mod for the selling forums I don't see what else can be done.

"reactionary old-school policing" may not be the best solution, but if there is a better solution available to us I'd like to hear it. At the end of the day this isn't eBay, theres no feedback system and the only way to protect yourself is to go about transactions in the right way. Maybe we could draw up some guidelines and have them posted as a sticky at the top of each trading forum?

I tried covering some of this several weeks ago.

Check the thread <a href="http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=008347#000000" target="_blank">HERE</a>.

This can easily been added upon.

Avoiding problems to start with is always the best policy, but sometimes shit happens.

Spectre:
I don't really understand what your point is VT. You tell people to stop 'jumping on the bandwagon' and just comming out for the witch hunts, and ask people to actually help combat scammers, but if there is a way to combat scammers other than sharing your experiences then I would like to hear about it.

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Do something more than "Get teh fux out you fckn scammer" would be a nice start.

<strong>

Are you saying that those who are concerned about scammers should be going vigilante and keeping an eye on all transactions to spot any that look suspicious? To an extent that is something I already see happening - often when a selling post looks dubious for one reason or another, people chip in and start asking questions and telling potential buyers to be careful if appropriate. Without an actual mod for the selling forums I don't see what else can be done.

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Yeah, but how many people do that? A few.

<strong>

"reactionary old-school policing" may not be the best solution, but if there is a better solution available to us I'd like to hear it. At the end of the day this isn't eBay, theres no feedback system and the only way to protect yourself is to go about transactions in the right way. Maybe we could draw up some guidelines and have them posted as a sticky at the top of each trading forum?

Click to expand...

I thought EW and myself gave some good points to start it out. Your last point is a good one. Why not do some research on sellers and buyers? Why not ask questions when someone is suspect to you? Most sellers/buyers won't mind if they're honest. If you see someone doing a deal with someone and you previously dealt with them, drop them a PM?

I don't know the solution exactly, but why not be a bit more vigilant?

EvilWasabi:
most of these "scammers" are just kids trying to cash in on the great deals to be made here, but as kids, don't have the responsibility to follow through with all their deals, much less the foresight to tell which deals to avoid.

Sure, we have people like Tim Tews, Pichai, Joe Pusczek, Ralph Karels, Dion, etc, but they are not the ones you hear about weekly. Each week it's some kid - nismonotmugen for example - a kid. Kyo 2000 (Joshua Clifton), a very stupid and dickless kid.

I don't know how to avoid the adult scammers that suddenly turn on the community (like Karels did), but for the kids, I say just avoid dealing with them. You wouldn't do $100+ deals with teenagers outside the internet. Why make exceptions here?

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totally agree Charlie

all th adults mentioned where respected buyers and sellers then they just decide to scam for some reason - possible money factors

i know Tews probably took just as much as Karels but he did it with more members

Myself, mario and shito (maybe not but definately an Italian member) are just 3 i know about and that was with 1 transaction - his last transaction on this board

I agree with what Charlie is saying, for the most part. But in some cases, how do you know whether the seller/buyer is 10, 15, 30, or 70 years old? This is the internet after all, where 12-year-old boys masquerade as middle-aged women every day.

@ VT: I have mentioned several times that I'm willing to help out. While I have not been scammed yet (although I do have several deals still pending) I've tried to help if I can to those who have/may have been scammed, partly in the hopes that if I ever DO get scammed someone here will help me.

I also want to stress several things:
I am not a lawyer
I am not versed in legalese
AND
Violence, no matter how satisfying, will only end up with the victim getting punished instead of the scammer in the long run

That said, if someone has suggestions in terms of ways I can LEGALLY help, such as being an intermediary (i.e. without violence) I am willing to help.

There are so few Neo fans in the world, in here. We should be able to HELP each other out.

Here's a simple question.

Why doesn't the webmaster of this site give a damn when someone has been proven as a 100% scammer?

i.e. Kyokugen Star or a few select others who've done shady dealings and yet post here freely.

If Shawn won't take care of these people by flushing them off the boards or allow his moderators to do it without Shawn lifting the ban later then there really is no point in bitching about this.

The guy who owns this site is the only one who could actually make a difference....but he won't.

BonusKun:
Here's a simple question.

Why doesn't the webmaster of this site give a damn when someone has been proven as a 100% scammer?

i.e. Kyokugen Star or a few select others who've done shady dealings and yet post here freely.

If Shawn won't take care of these people by flushing them off the boards or allow his moderators to do it without Shawn lifting the ban later then there really is no point in bitching about this.

The guy who owns this site is the only one who could actually make a difference....but he won't.

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Bullshit. This community pretty much polices itself, it doesn't need the site owner to do that. Your statements about Kyokugen Star are silly, Shawn could ban him and then he'd just come back as some other identity. What does that accomplish? It obscures his original identity and makes it more difficult for people to know who Ralph Karels really is.

Banning "known scammers" accomplishes nothing; notice that when KS posts, he is almost always followed with ridicule by other people here about his ripoff of Bahamut. WE HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN THE RIPOFF, and he can't just go about his regular business.

As for the more general subject of scams and ripoffs, like ANYTHING ELSE regarding internet purchases, a little bit of INTELLIGENCE goes a long way. On Ebay there are some tools to accomplish this, and to this day I haven't been ripped off ONCE on ebay, and I've bought AND sold a lot there. Nor have I ever been ripped off here by any sellers. As a general rule, if you use some common sense when buying or selling, you'll be OK; if you don't, then thats YOUR fault, NOT the fault of the site owner. How hard is that to figure out? spock

chimpmeister:
Bullshit. This community pretty much polices itself, it doesn't need the site owner to do that. Your statements about Kyokugen Star are silly, Shawn could ban him and then he'd just come back as some other identity. What does that accomplish? It obscures his original identity and makes it more difficult for people to know who Ralph Karels really is.

Banning "known scammers" accomplishes nothing; notice that when KS posts, he is almost always followed with ridicule by other people here about his ripoff of Bahamut. WE HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN THE RIPOFF, and he can't just go about his regular business.

As for the more general subject of scams and ripoffs, like ANYTHING ELSE regarding internet purchases, a little bit of INTELLIGENCE goes a long way. On Ebay there are some tools to accomplish this, and to this day I haven't been ripped off ONCE on ebay, and I've bought AND sold a lot there. Nor have I ever been ripped off here by any sellers. As a general rule, if you use some common sense when buying or selling, you'll be OK; if you don't, then thats YOUR fault, NOT the fault of the site owner. How hard is that to figure out? spock

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So what you're saying is you support the idea of full widespread Chaos then Bryce when all of these problems could be taken care of with a simple 'ban' on a proven scammer.

Not too hard to deal with and much less drama going on. Said it before and I'l say it again. It's Shawn's site, he call the shots so unless he does something about it, this *waves hand around* is all pointless.

There is another forum I used to visit a bit and their selling forum was not visible to you unless you were a member which stopped passing scammers to an extent, that might help a little.

A second more radical measure would be that you can be a member of NG.com and you can be a selling member of NG.com. A member could view the for sale forum, reply to posts there and so on but only selling members could start new topics there, ie actually sell stuff.

It may also be that existing members could black ball new proposed selling members.

You would have to apply for selling membership and be supported in your application by existing selling members that have had good deals with you as a buyer. Bad deals could see your privilege revoked. Its not perfect and its not foolproof but it would give a little more peace of mind when buying.

<small>[ May 09, 2003, 04:58 AM: Message edited by: BlackSpy ]</small>