Price guide update and Kizuna

As said,in the new update of the price guide a note or a quote for Kizuna will be put in.

Few notes and then opinions welcome:

-when a game is SO rare,even one sale takes BIG relevance
-OF COURSE shipping costs and other extra costs are NOT to be factored in putting a quote on a game.
BUT if the transaction requires to be made in person due to great amount of money involved,those new costs appear to be factored since ALMOST all possible buyers would have paid HUGE fees for Tradenable or such guaranteee services.
-the new owner is ANYWAY wrong when he says:
"I paid 10000 euros,so next in years MUST go for that amount".
That's really misleading thought.
Next copy could be sold for $6000,5000 or 15000.
Many factor involved.

-No surprise anyway for the price fetched by the game:if slug 1 US can sell for $2800,that game is WAY more rare(as confirmed by great collectors around the world)
-last but not least:actually the seller got some offers for $9000 or so and finally one for 10000 euros.
I know of persons that were ready to pay more but the were not confident about seller's reliability and if the game was legit.

Opinions welcome of course.

<small>[ June 12, 2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: FTL ]</small>

FTL
BUT if the transaction requires to be made in person due to great amount of money involved,those new costs appear to be factored since ALMOST all possible buyers would have paid HUGE fees for Tradenable or such guaranteee services.

Click to expand...

Please, allow me to insist on that point once more. I do not agree with including any extra expense in the price guide, no matter how rare a game could be.

This is an OBVIOUS cost that should be evaluated by every individual case by case.

If you include it in the overall amount you can lead people to confusion, because they may take a higher amount as the starting point of reference.

Finally, I would like to know if we will be able to know which evidences have been provided to prove that 10.000€ were really paid for that game.

FTL BUT if the transaction requires to be made in person due to great amount of money involved,those new costs appear to be factored since ALMOST all possible buyers would have paid HUGE fees for Tradenable or such guaranteee services.

Click to expand...

? everyone with half a brain should know, that using uninsured shipping would be nuts and no one is forced to pic it up in person either.

the new owner is ANYWAY wrong when he says:
"I paid 10000 euros,so next in years MUST go for that amount".
That's really misleading thought.
Next copy could be sold for $6000,5000 or 15000.
Many factor involved.

Click to expand...

exactly. he was THE ONLY ONE who was willing to pay enough to get this game.
setting up a fixed price would only raise the price, 'cause all possible sellers would use it as a minimum.

Simone, please tink about it. you just can't put a price tag on that kind of stuff. as you said, there are waaay too many factors.

<small>[ June 12, 2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: supergoose79 ]</small>

FTL,

This whole price guide thing is confusing. Nowadays, with all the bootlegging of rare carts, we all have to take precautions to make sure we get a "legitimate" game. Chamane "took it upon himself" to travel to pick up the game in person. Now don't get me wrong, I think that was a smart decision on his part, considering he was shelling out 10,000 Euros for it. Consequently, this is irrelevant to the price guide.

I know there are only 3 known copies of this game but rarity does not justify adding in any additional costs incurred by the buyer. If I want to buy a brand new Ferrari from Italy and I have to get it shipped, just because I go in person to "escort" my Ferrari back to the states doesnt make it anymore valuable. And we all know that a Ferrari costs a hell-of-a-lot more than Euro Kizuna. Flying in person to pick up Euro KE was an "option" not mandatory.

Phillip

<small>[ June 12, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Bulletnyourass ]</small>

If you want to approach the additional fees intelligently. $5 for domestic priority mail is Damn expensive when your buying a common cart.

Price paid for the game is the only factor, no shipping costs, no picking up costs...

End of discussion...

Price guide is here to reflect market, not to make it.

Game was sold and we know the price why wouldn't it be updated ?

Sure someone could ask for the same amount next time. So what ? If nobody wants to pay the price, it won't sell, or sell for less (then guide will be updated with lower pricing). If someone put 10k or more, it will reveal the guide is right and maybe it will be updated with higer pricing.

As for picking charges, they have no place in a price guide. It could have been sold by a "next door" neighbour or processed via mail. Picking the game in person is only buyer decision.


I would anyway suggest to display price in € as it was the currency used an vary in front of $.

Extra costs won't be factored.
As Phillip said,it was just the good amount of money that ANYWAY neded some form of guarantee,i.e. going there in person in this case.

Still thinking if better to put just a note or a quote.
Of course Shawn's opinion will be needed as well.

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: FTL ]</small>

FTL:

Of course Shawn's opinion will be needed as well.

Click to expand...

I would like hear from him as well.
glee

A price guide quote means the following:

- if you pay less than the lower value you get a bargain
- if you pay more than upper value you might pay too much

So with just ONE sale who can tell whether paying less is a bargain or more is too much? There`s just not enough info here to warrant a quote. Anything more than a note would be incorrect.

FTL:

-No surprise anyway for the price fetched by the game:if slug 1 US can sell for $2800,that game is WAY more rare(as confirmed by great collectors around the world)

Click to expand...

Rare? What's so fucking rare? You can have the Jap version for 20 times less, and the MVS one for 200 times less. And the game is EXACTLY the same. OK, you would say this is around the same for Metal Slug, but at least there's not much difference between Jap & US AES in price, and in fact it IS an enjoyable game, so its price is high because there's high demand. However Kizuna is not a game to be played, so it's only expensive because of low offer. It has no INTRINSEC value, other than the rarity (in AES Euro version that is).

I can (barely) understand paying 3500$ for Ghost Lop, because there's EXACTLY only one in ALL formats, you can't have it any other way, not even through emulation. And it looks like a funny game. I can (hardly) understand paying 2000$ fo AES Metal Slug, because it's one of the best games the neo has, almost a legend, you can play it a lot (although you could get the MVS or any port, including the superior NGCD one).

But 10.000€ for Euro Kizuna, plus all the added costs? That's INSANE. Period.

Amano Jacu:

FTL:

-No surprise anyway for the price fetched by the game:if slug 1 US can sell for $2800,that game is WAY more rare(as confirmed by great collectors around the world)

Click to expand...

Rare? What's so fucking rare? You can have the Jap version for 20 times less, and the MVS one for 200 times less. And the game is EXACTLY the same. OK, you would say this is around the same for Metal Slug, but at least there's not much difference between Jap & US AES in price, and in fact it IS an enjoyable game, so its price is high because there's high demand. However Kizuna is not a game to be played, so it's only expensive because of low offer. It has no INTRINSEC value, other than the rarity (in AES Euro version that is).

I can (barely) understand paying 3500$ for Ghost Lop, because there's EXACTLY only one in ALL formats, you can't have it any other way, not even through emulation. And it looks like a funny game. I can (hardly) understand paying 2000$ fo AES Metal Slug, because it's one of the best games the neo has, almost a legend, you can play it a lot (although you could get the MVS or any port, including the superior NGCD one).

But 10.000€ for Euro Kizuna, plus all the added costs? That's INSANE. Period.

Click to expand...

It's perfectly clear to me.
Reasoning your way for Ghostlop lacks a very important part of the matter:collector's point of view.

Put it that way:
there is a special package with master of the universe with 3 toys and special logo as well.
You could buy the 3 toys for $5 each and have the same result from your point of view.
Instead the special package of the 3 SAME characters goes for $1500+ IF you can find it.

Same with english AES carts.
Jap metal slug is quite common and goes for WELL less than its US counterpart.
Same for Real Bout 2 and many more home carts.

If your a collectors you just want carts that fit in your collection.

Amano Jacu:
But 10.000€ for Euro Kizuna, plus all the added costs? That's INSANE. Period.

Click to expand...

Give me a break, almost everbody would anyway call us insane paying $325 for a new 16bit 2D game...

Actually I don't see why we would'nt update price guide. Even mona lisa has a cost, they need this for insurances, do they wait for 12 mona lisa to sell to establish a price ? By the way that's a insane price for some paint on a tissue...

HPMAN:
Give me a break, almost everbody would anyway call us insane paying $325 for a new 16bit 2D game...

Actually I don't see why we would'nt update price guide. Even mona lisa has a cost, they need this for insurances, do they wait for 12 mona lisa to sell to establish a price ? By the way that's a insane price for some paint on a tissue...

Click to expand...

Well yes, in fact I DO call "insane" whoever pays 325$ for a new release, but at the very least they will sure play the hell out of them. For me, the maximum price I've ever paid and will ever pay for a single videogame is 100$. An I have around 200 games, around 30 of them Neo Geo MVS carts, BETTER than their AES counterparts in playing terms.
Yes, I'm much more a gamer than a collector and I'm proud of it. However I do buy games just for collecting them, games that I will barely play. But it's just a hobby and I spent on them something like the 3% of my income. Definately not an amount of money I can regret having spent in the future.
I don't know what is the strange pleasure in owning a "complete collection" or even single overpriced AES carts.
About art paintings, they sure don't have absolutely any value for me (specially those fucking abstract paintings whose value is calculated upon who signed them), but there are thousands of people who appreciate them. Definately more than people who appreciate videogames. Art goes to museums. Videogames, don't.

Amano Jacu:
Art goes to museums. Videogames, don't.

Click to expand...

<a href="http://www.vgmuseum.com" target="_blank">www.vgmuseum.com</a>

glee glee glee glee glee glee glee

An I have around 200 games, around 30 of them Neo Geo MVS carts, BETTER than their AES counterparts in playing terms.

I learn things everydays

waku7: I learn things everydays )

Click to expand...

spock he's right.
a mvs board with installed uni-bios offers waaay more possibilities.

... and before you start to argue : this was coming from someone (me), who has more home carts than mvs carts and a debug & stereo modded ngh system.

Yeah, Supergoose is pointing EXACTLY what I was referring. MVS games in a real arcade board look and sound much better than in any AES, no matter how much have you modified it. That's specially true in Europe thanks to our RGB TVs. Some people could complain than AES allows you to use home options (versus, etc.) but thanks to the unibios you can get all these features and even more, like cheats, blood, etc.

So OK, AES games are *fancier* (with all those boxes and papers and stuff) and *rarer* (so some people pay tons of meoney for them like there's no tomorrow). So they are more a collectible item. And look prettier in a shelf.

Hell, my MVS games are almost all loose carts, multicolor (I have black, white, green, blue, red...) half with Jap and half with Eng spine, some with serials removed, others were quite used in arcades... but I have FUN when playing with them, not when watching them in my shelf, or when thinking "I have a complete collection", or "I am one of the few people in the world that have it".

Nice one with the museum Rui... lol

About art paintings, they sure don't have absolutely any value for me (specially those fucking abstract paintings whose value is calculated upon who signed them), but there are thousands of people who appreciate them.


....
lol lol lol lol
I didn't read carefully.
LOL.
I will stop that topic
It is better for me, or a heart attack is near.
I am young, better to stay alive .
You don't like art paintings,great.
I love it.Great.

If you had an idea of my collection ,sure you wouldn't treat me like a COLLECTOR ASSHOLE .
I don't have any fucking bad cart(you know, the carts 80% of guys buy, and don't play, not only Ke Euro)
I don't give a fuck about you and your neo geo mvs collection.
I only respect persons that are not assholes.
From the little kid that spend his cash to buy a 25usd game, to the hardcore collector ready to spend 3 months of salary to buy a game, from the moment he is a real fan.
I am buying what i want.
I buy only games i play, at every price, from the moment i have the money to pay it(not more than 500usd,or rare exceptions).
If i want the AES form, because it is the SAME FOR ME than the mvs(yes, you can have with your mvs slot gnia gnia, the red colour of the 4th three atthe fifth stage of magican lord),and i appreciate the packaging, the artworks.
Is it a crime?
I don't think so.

Oh well, I guess I just hit the nail right on the head...
Seriously, no offense was intended, I was just explaining my point of view. I can't remember calling anybody a collector asshole. You have the right to spend your money (as long as you earned it) in any way you want. It's just that I don't agree in how some people spend his. Of course many other people can't understand why I also spend some money in these things.

That's my opinion. Is yours different? Perfect. Then just explain it and discuss. But politely please.

supergoose79:

FTL BUT if the transaction requires to be made in person due to great amount of money involved,those new costs appear to be factored since ALMOST all possible buyers would have paid HUGE fees for Tradenable or such guaranteee services.

Click to expand...

? everyone with half a brain should know, that using uninsured shipping would be nuts and no one is forced to pic it up in person either.

the new owner is ANYWAY wrong when he says:
"I paid 10000 euros,so next in years MUST go for that amount".
That's really misleading thought.
Next copy could be sold for $6000,5000 or 15000.
Many factor involved.

Click to expand...

exactly. he was THE ONLY ONE who was willing to pay enough to get this game.
setting up a fixed price would only raise the price, 'cause all possible sellers would use it as a minimum.

Simone, please tink about it. you just can't put a price tag on that kind of stuff. as you said, there are waaay too many factors.

Click to expand...

Sorry,I was not the only one,I was the faster one to do the transaction because France is near Germany.5 of the most respectable guys of this board were agree to pay this price.When I offered 9KE for the game,this is what the seller answered me:
"Hi,sorry
NO"
I read what the other guys said him and ALL OF THEM were agree to pay this price.
If there is another copy for sell,what do you think these guys will do?Oh no!this time I will only offer 5KE"...Bullshit.
They will fight again to have the game.
Regards,
Carine.

You could have a look at this classification I made on the Neo owning/playing:

<a href="http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=009132" target="_blank">http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=009132</a>

On to go back on topic, I think it's hard to put a price on a game with such a low supply (only 3). I mean, supply and demand decide prices. In any case, if it is true that there were more people wanting the game AND WILLING TO PAY similar amounts, maybe we can say its price is 10k E. How do you set the price of the games in the price guide? Look at all the transactions made for that game and then put a confidence interval on the on-going price. So here it is the same, only that "all the transactions" is only that one, so that price should be reflected. OK, this game is such rare that if I had it I could ask a milion$ for it, but that would mean nothing as (I hope) nobody would pay it. At the same time I could be offered 1$. But this transaction ACTUALLY ocurred, so both the seller and the buyer agreed on a price.

So my opinion is that the guide should say "the last one that was sold was for 10.000euro in June 03" instead of putting that price as normal. That's all

Amano Jacu:
Yeah, Supergoose is pointing EXACTLY what I was referring. MVS games in a real arcade board look and sound much better than in any AES, no matter how much have you modified it. That's specially true in Europe thanks to our RGB TVs. Some people could complain than AES allows you to use home options (versus, etc.) but thanks to the unibios you can get all these features and even more, like cheats, blood, etc.

Nice one with the museum Rui... lol

Click to expand...

HAHHA!! You can do all of that with an AES with the Debbug Bios!

RGB picture ? Euro TV's support it. Why bother saying that a cab is better ? are Cabs monitors better than a Toshiba/Hitachi/Sony 32" Flat screens ?

Guess not! wink

People can argue as much as they want about AES and MVS, but they're always trying to make them look like the home console. Isn't it Supergoose ? tickled

Cool Consolized MVS's you have tough!

And about the museum question... well they exist !

chamane:

supergoose79:

FTL BUT if the transaction requires to be made in person due to great amount of money involved,those new costs appear to be factored since ALMOST all possible buyers would have paid HUGE fees for Tradenable or such guaranteee services.

Click to expand...

? everyone with half a brain should know, that using uninsured shipping would be nuts and no one is forced to pic it up in person either.

the new owner is ANYWAY wrong when he says:
"I paid 10000 euros,so next in years MUST go for that amount".
That's really misleading thought.
Next copy could be sold for $6000,5000 or 15000.
Many factor involved.

Click to expand...

exactly. he was THE ONLY ONE who was willing to pay enough to get this game.
setting up a fixed price would only raise the price, 'cause all possible sellers would use it as a minimum.

Simone, please tink about it. you just can't put a price tag on that kind of stuff. as you said, there are waaay too many factors.

Click to expand...

Sorry,I was not the only one,I was the faster one to do the transaction because France is near Germany.5 of the most respectable guys of this board were agree to pay this price.When I offered 9KE for the game,this is what the seller answered me:
"Hi,sorry
NO"
I read what the other guys said him and ALL OF THEM were agree to pay this price.
If there is another copy for sell,what do you think these guys will do?Oh no!this time I will only offer 5KE"...Bullshit.
They will fight again to have the game.
Regards,
Carine.

Click to expand...

If you know the five guys, you should have coordinated it better. Instead of being selfish, coordinate it such that all but one pulls their offer, and the last offer is the lowest, and the seller knows that the others aren't going to opt to buy the game anymore. So of course he sells it for the lowest level.

Another Kizuna will appear. Everything in time.

But as it stands, people will horde their KE just because it could cost them an arm and a leg - not because they like the game.

This of course goes the smae for the Japanese version. Imagine how many owners just have the game as a trophy on the shelf - instead of as a game they love playing. As a gamer collector, I have been trying to at least enjoy my trophies. But if I cannot enjoy them (Overtop, Chibi, Syougi no Tatsujin) then I get rid of them. Not saying this is how all collectors should think at all. But with their current mindset, they can only cause more debt for other hardcore collectors, by blindly paying out the ass for a game they have no real love or appreciation of, past the monetary value.

EvilWasabi:
Another Kizuna will appear. Everything in time.

Click to expand...

Actually I have made a call to Switzerland inquiring about this game.

The videogame store called "Pixel Software" , located In Geneva was a reseller of Neo Geo stuff and they told me they had Kizunas. both JAP and EURO .

They had only 2 copies of Euro Kizunas. One was sold to a spanish emigrant ( might still be living in Switzerland ) and another one went to Lyon ( France ) wich is not very far from Geneva.

Might the french owner be a possible trader seller on a transaction with Adol ?

Adol said he sold 3 copies of that game. Still doubtfull as this game is fucking rare.

There are MORE Kizunas out there. They just don't surface like Samurai Shodown's II. wink

Hope this helps.

waku7 I only respect persons that are not assholes.

Click to expand...

why do you have to be so rude? none of us called any of you an 'asshole'.

the only thing, that i really don't like about you french guys is that you keep on talking french all the time. these forums are on an us based server, which is paid by guy from the states. now don't you think, that you should show some more respect? especially towards the other members from all over the world, who might not understand french? just use the pm system, if you have to talk about something, that you can't express in english. thanks.

chamane Sorry,I was not the only one,I was the faster one to do the transaction because France is near Germany.

Click to expand...

nah ... you wouldn'd own the game, if someone else would have offered 15.000€+.

Atrophyed HAHHA!! You can do all of that with an AES with the Debbug Bios!

Click to expand...

no, you can't. i own several mvs boards, a neo cd and a debug modded home cart system.

fact is, that there are a shitload of home carts, that DON'T work in mvs mode.

example : last blade, kof99, robo army, real bout, fatal fury 3

option, that you only have with the uni-bios, but NOT with the debug bios :

- music player
- crc check
- soft reboot (you don't have to press the reset button of the system)
- play EACH & EVERY game in home & mvs mode (the debug doesn't)

cheat engine
- unlimited time, energy, power ... without any glitches
- 'no hit stop' (<- this is awesome and makes fighting games FAST)
- overall more options as the debugs dip switches

RGB picture ? Euro TV's support it. Why bother saying that a cab is better ? are Cabs monitors better than a Toshiba/Hitachi/Sony 32" Flat screens ?

Click to expand...

´
wtf? spock
did you actually read our postings? we said, that the mvs boards have better rgb output, than the home cart systems. again : i know, what i'm talking about, because i actually OWN & USE those systems.

People can argue as much as they want about AES and MVS, but they're always trying to make them look like the home console. Isn't it Supergoose ? tickled

Click to expand...

trust me, i would have put a mv-1c board in an empty ngh shell, if i actually wanted it to look like a home cart system. wouldn't be much of a problem, i'd only have to make the cart slot a little bigger.
actually, i just want my stuff to look nice.

Cool Consolized MVS's you have tough!

Click to expand...

thanks.

again : i'm into home carts myself and i own more home carts, than mvs carts and neo cds combined. i really dig the artwork of some games and i like the cases. (and NO, i DIDN'T buy the cheapest carts only) heck, i spent $100 on my jp leaque bowling and didn't regret a cent.

really, i never had a problem with that kizuna deal. it's his money ... so why should i care?
you know ... i could go the the selling forum and pic up Charlie's TSS, right now. i have the money and i dig the game and it's artwork, but i don't feel like doing it atm.

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: supergoose79 ]</small>