Pushing the limits of Neo Geo

Setsuna1982 · May 28, 2002

Is it possible to power up the cartdriges with new chips and stuff without changing the actual shape and compability with MVS/AES?
I mean doing something like Crusoe chips (They are modern chips emulating x86 architecture in order to decrease processor heating/size)
In that case Neo games will surpass the 1giga limit and even have new effects such as rotation or transparency FX. (Like the SVP on Genesis or SuperFX in SuperNES... well forget SVP, it was stronger than SuperFX but also REALLY expensive!)

Fran · May 28, 2002

good question there

as i wrote in another thread,
currently neo carts cant get any bigger in size

i suppose 700 / 750 megs is the limit

just think about this:

kof94 - 196
kof95 - 250
kof96 - 362
kof97 - 460
kof98 - 683
kof99 - 673
kof00 - 688
kof01 - 700 ??

notice how from 98 onwards the meg count never really increased

WHY

and keep in mind 99 had LESS fighters

keep in mind in 2000 they removed TONS AND TONS of frames of animations ( check terry CD attack or power wave ),win poses and cool extra stuff

keep in mind 2001 has shitty music and bgs

its all logical,really

neo carts currently cant contain more than a certain amount of memory

so if they want to add new fighters in kof with better animations

they always have to make a compromise,
and cut other stuff

its sad really

because when you think about it,
kof 96 is still the best kof when it comes to graphic quality

and that was 6 years ago,damn it

they need a new chip,a new technology,SOMETHING like that

so we can have 1000+ megs games

otherwise yeah its over,the limit has been reached

just my two cents

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Fran ]

Mike Shagohod · May 28, 2002

Jeez having read all of the spec stuff on the N64 vs. Neo Cart threads and now this, my project of Neo games going beyond the "Blazing Star" in terms of vastness overall is starting to look pretty damn dim. I know the hardware's 13 years old but dammit there just has to be a way to stretch it beyond some damned meg limit!

"I guess we'll all know our fate in about 30 seconds Johnny... Cause if in 30 seconds we're not toast at ground zero, I'm gonna' fuckin' kill you for interruptin' my groove on with Sindy!"
---Quote from Underground 60's Cold War Film Short: The Last Minutes on Planet Earth---

kernow · May 28, 2002

yah, they need new technology

but the MVS cant be updated to a point where its any good, you need a new board!

Samurai Hamster · May 28, 2002

I don't think a new board will happen ,

You think with new chips always coming out they can figure out one that will work in Neo carts to get more megs ,

Its crazy that a system with the same grafix for 5 years straight still has games released on it ,

AOJ · May 28, 2002

We have to think there's no known limit.
So, what happened to the MAX 330 Mega? <img src="graemlins/spock.gif" border="0" alt="[Spock]" />
Surpassed without any major changes in the system (I think, maybe I'm wrong). We don't have to think about cart limit, we have to start thinking on carts performance/abilities upgrade.

As Setsuna1982 said, why not some kind of low cost chip with graphical routines added? Like antialiasing, to mention something. I'm sure Neo can handle some incredible effects via software routines, but eating lots of CPU bandwith (and no one wants to play a slow fighting game

). So, individual chips for each game will bring us to the next NeoGeo step.

Nah, I suppose it's impossible. If you start thinking about it; If it's so easy, why SNK never did it?

So hard? So expensive? So lazy? So nonprofiteable? So useless? <img src="graemlins/ohno.gif" border="0" alt="[Oh No]" />

kernow · May 28, 2002

they wouldn't bother adding anything "too" spectacular to the MVS/AES chipset.

its too slow

anything added would need to confirm to the already slow design.. think..

put things in the cartridge, your still limited to the data bandwidth of the "slot".. and the board doesn't shift much..

it'll never reach PGM or crystal performance.. unless they make another board!

Chris_85TA · May 28, 2002

They could probly just make a longer cartridge. That would give more room for more chips.

garou_d · May 28, 2002

and what about the cost ?!

carts are already expensive to produce.

left the neogeo just like that.

SNK is dead. that's hurt me. but the legend is alive.

she's an old lady now. even a good surgeon can't do anything.

before producing new type of carts - they better reproduce new system and rerelease some carts (like a platinium kind for PS2

)

kernow · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by Chris_85TA:
They could probly just make a longer cartridge. That would give more room for more chips.<hr></blockquote>

you are joking, correct?

garou_d · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by Chris_85TA:
They could probly just make a longer cartridge. That would give more room for more chips.<hr></blockquote>

with a compilation all of king in one cart ! <img src="graemlins/tickled.gif" border="0" alt="[Tickled]" /> why not !

Jotaro · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by Fran:
i suppose 700 / 750 megs is the limit

just think about this:

kof94 - 196
kof95 - 250
kof96 - 362
kof97 - 460
kof98 - 683
kof99 - 673
kof00 - 688
kof01 - 700 ??
<hr></blockquote>

I thought KoF '01 has 892 Megs.

Atro · May 28, 2002

PGM hardware is not that powerfull in terms of processing. it's just clocked at 18MHz, 6 above the Neo Geo. I you can take a closer look at the 68000 that the Neo packs inside, it's almost the same size of the carts chips. They could make a layout a introduce a parallel 68000 + some Fx Chip. It all depends of the pcb's. the games would smoother than never and a possibilty of more storage would fill the cherry in the cake!

PGM really rocks in Pallet/Display and in the sprites generator.

But up to now, the Neo still can handle any game of the PGM hardware. Their bigger game is Gwange, and it looks less CPU dependant than I.E. : Blazing Star.

This can be a bit controversial, but that oldie hardware has still much too give. <img src="graemlins/glee.gif" border="0" alt="[Glee]" />

kernow · May 28, 2002

uhh..

the PGM whips the neo on graphical capability ...

Fran · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by Jotaro:


I thought KoF '01 has 892 Megs.<hr></blockquote>

nah
not really

Chris_85TA · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by kernow:


you are joking, correct?<hr></blockquote>

Why do you say that? It might not be cost effective but neogeo never was. You can always make a circuit bigger.

Atro · May 28, 2002

PGM really rocks in Pallet/Display and in the sprites generator.

<hr></blockquote>

Originally posted by me...

The real big diference between The Neo Geo, PGM and the crystal is really the crystal. The PGM uses a very identical architecture like the Neo Geo, just a bit more Powerfull, but the crystal is the king of the crown, it can whip both Neo and PGM power togheter. A really powerfull machine. The PGM haves a great color display capability, the max display is the same as the neo Geo palette, and haves a Palette of 16.8Milion colors. The CPU Speed and the sprites generator are also better. but you won't notice in the near future a "HUGE" diference between those two systems. There's only one reason : SNK is not there to impress the world with this machine. I ain't see bright 3rd parties to make full use of the 2D hardware of this great System.
Surely Brezza won't make any games for the PGM because of the Crystal.

Makismo · May 28, 2002

They did it with Star Fox on the Super Nintendo - why not the Neo Geo? Put a Super FX chip (or something) to make more powerful games. It is worth a shot. While they are at it - get that resolution up. But then again, why bother with a system that isn't even produced anymore? <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[Crying]" />

MKL · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by Atrophyed:
the PGM hardware. Their bigger game is Gwange<hr></blockquote>

What?!?

NeoLord · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by AOJ:
We have to think there's no known limit.
So, what happened to the MAX 330 Mega? <img src="graemlins/spock.gif" border="0" alt="[Spock]" />
Surpassed without any major changes in the system (I think, maybe I'm wrong). We don't have to think about cart limit, we have to start thinking on carts performance/abilities upgrade.

As Setsuna1982 said, why not some kind of low cost chip with graphical routines added? Like antialiasing, to mention something. I'm sure Neo can handle some incredible effects via software routines, but eating lots of CPU bandwith (and no one wants to play a slow fighting game ). So, individual chips for each game will bring us to the next NeoGeo step.

Nah, I suppose it's impossible. If you start thinking about it; If it's so easy, why SNK never did it?

So hard? So expensive? So lazy? So nonprofiteable? So useless? <img src="graemlins/ohno.gif" border="0" alt="[Oh No]" /> <hr></blockquote>

I think your idea is feasible. Hell, remember the ill-fated FX chip? Why not release a co-processor that would mount in each cartridge? Hell, it worked for Sega and Nintendo (well, to some degree).

yagamikun · May 28, 2002

sure these chips for the SNES and Gen were cool and all, but all it did was to open up some new graphical effects that the system did not have programed, not increase the memory of the cartridge. I think that is what Setsuna1982 was getting at, am I correct? What about compression techniques? If I am not mistaken Killer Instinct and Dragon Ball Z Hyper Demension on the SNES both used massive ammounts of compression. I THINK I remember reading about KI having it used in Nintendo Power back in the day. I could be wrong. Even if not, why not compression on the neo?

kernow · May 29, 2002

MVS 2
AES 2

masses of program/graphics/sound RAM
ROM cartridge/gd-ROM format
Raw 2d Power, no 3d accelleration
Backwards compatible with AES/MVS

.. a low price tag?

I'd buy one..

the_move · May 29, 2002

Back to topic:

Yes, they can be enhanced even without changing their size, thanks to "micro-technology".

Because of "micro-technology" chips like i.e. Roms are getting smaller and smaller. That´s why the Rom size of Neo carts can be enhanced and additional graphic chips or even additional Ram can be added.

(Remember the Super FX chip)

So the Neo could even be backed up with new Grafx chips, etc.

The only real matter would be the price, altough technology is also getting older and cheaper.

And old technology can still be enough to enhace a Neo-Game.

In fact many game system already have "outdated" hardware at their release, but this hardware is still enough to "do the trick".

So to simply answer it:

The Neo Cart system, either MVS or AES, can be upgraded, just by upgrading the rom carts.

(added)
And as long as there is no limit in technology and science, there is no limit to the NeoGeo or any cart-ystem.

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: the_move ]

Voltamp · May 29, 2002

Originally posted by yagamikun:
[QB]sure these chips for the SNES and Gen were cool and all, but all it did was to open up some new graphical effects that the system did not have programed, not increase the memory of the cartridge. <hr></blockquote>

Thats because they were designed to make the SNES / MD powerful enough to do 3D (they were basically FPUs i think) it would be quite feasable to stick a chip in a neo cart that enables access to a higher capasity ROM chip. Any way why can't they just use higher capasity ROm chips int eh first place there is no reason why they can't (apart from price)

ALec

Voltamp · May 29, 2002

right, ignore me, the ghuy above my post said what i ment to say but got their first (and put it better).

Sorry about the double post.

ALec

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