ROMS = BAD?

Katsu

Crazed MVS Addict
Joined
May 1, 2002
Posts
145
I'm still pretty new to this forum, and I've only recently noticed the anti-rom/emulator sentiment within this community.

Before I even start, let me say that I own my own MVS, and I've owned both an AES and a NeoGeo CD. I've bought all my own software for each of these systems. . . all of them legit. That being said, here I go.

I don't quite understand the rationale that some of the forum members use to come to the conclusion that ROMS and emulation are bad for the NeoGeo community. If the NeoGeo was a living system (nevermind the one or two games coming out this year, I'll get to that later) I could understand why hardcore fans would be anti-ROM. I mean, the only way for a company to continue to exist and produce new games is to sell games it's already produced. But now that SNK has died, and most of these games aren't being produced anymore, what harm could come from playing some of these games in emulation form? Is playing a non-current game in ROM form taking money away from SNK anymore? Absolutely not. And unless Playmore (or whoever) starts reproducing these games, they won't lose any money either.

The only POSSIBLE businesses that could lose money are arcades (or route operators.) But, realistically, a signficant number of people are NOT gonna run out to the arcade every day to play Metal Slug. If they pass by a Metal Slug game at an arcade, and they're an MS fan, they'll plop down a quarter whether they have the ROM or not. And just because they play a game at home doesn't mean they're willing to play it an arcade either. Additionally, playing a fighting game at home just doesn't compare to playing it at an aracde. What's mising? The competition! So I can see people practicing ROMs at home and then going to the arcade to play real people. I really think that arcade revenue lost, at this point in time, due to ROMs is quite small and largely insignificant.

As you all are quite aware, some NeoGeo games are incredibly rare and subsequently expensive. Only diehard collectors (or rich ones) can afford to own these games in their true form. But really, what harm can be done by letting others less fortunate than themselves play the same games emulated? Is the game going to devalue? No. There are still only X number of real copies of the game available, and a true colletor will only want the original game. And this isn't the stock market. You aren't a TRUE colletor if you only bought the game because you think its value will increase anyway.

So what about these NEW games? MS4, KOF2k1, KOF2k2, etc.? My thoughts on these games is that they're in limited production and not available as playable ROMs anyway (at least not that I know of.) But even if working ROMs exist, with the number of dedicated fans out there, and knowing full well that the hardware is just about dead, I'm sure there will be limited runs and all produced copies of new games will be sold regardless of emulation.

In all honesty, I think emulation brings in NEW fans at this point. People playing ROMs on their computer and loving it will just make them yearn to play the games on a REAL system. I've already seen a couple of posts where younger fans are already planning to spend their hard-earned cash on hardware and games. Do you think they play the ROMs? I'm sure most of them do. And the more they play, the more they'll want a system.

I will admit to trying out ROMs before buying the cart. I see no harm in this whatsoever. And if it's a crappy game, I'm not even going to play the ROM anymore. Why would I? The game sucks.

To conclude, let me just say that I think ROMs are a good thing at this point and that my thoughts on NeoGeo ROMs are solely based on the NeoGeos current state. If this were 1993, it would be a different story. Whether ROMs killed the NeoGeo in the first place (I don't think they did) is irrelevant as it's dead/dying now as a viable hardware platform and nobody can change that now. And that fact cannot be challenged.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that all new fans and even the old fans will only be buying USED hardware and software anyway (again not counting the 1 or 2 new games coming out.) And if ROMs discourage the re-selling of used hardware/softare, then no real harm is done to the companies that originally made the hardware/software. In fact, if you really think about it, it could be said that people making money off of USED hardware/software sales are the ones really hurting the original game producers as reduced priced used products compete for customers of the new from-the-factory products.

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Katsu ]</p>
 

Blaine

Hinako's Cook
Joined
Jul 16, 2001
Posts
3,113
Originally posted by Katsu:
<strong>So what about these NEW games? MS4, KOF2k1, KOF2k2, etc.? My thoughts on these games is that they're in limited production and not available as playable ROMs anyway (at least not that I know of.) </strong><hr></blockquote>

KoF2k1 was emulated within days of being released and since there are already bootlegs of MS4 logic would dictate the ROMs for that are available as well.
 

Katsu

Crazed MVS Addict
Joined
May 1, 2002
Posts
145
That's just a sign of the times, Blaine. Episode II was released on the internet before it even came out in the theaters. I'm not surprised about KOF 2k1 in the least.
 

SPINMASTER X

I AM NOT FRENCHMAN,, I AM A HUMAN BEING!,
20 Year Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2001
Posts
16,953
Dude even if you have an MVS, AES and CD system the people here still wouldn't give a damn. They'll hate your for life. I guarantee if the fuckin CEO of SNK had roms they'd hate his ass too. Its no use to even talk about it cuz they won't listen.

Oh yeah and just in case any of you wanted to know, i do play roms. I use them to play online using Kaillera which is one of the most awesome things ever created. ROMS don't always = bad. As you can see they are now playable online.

I don't know about you but i don't know when the Neo Geo broadband adapter is going to be released.............
 
K

K9999

Guest
I could write a couple dozen paragraphs on why I don't like roms&emulators, but I won't. I'll say this.

ROMS = BAD

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: K9999 ]</p>
 

RabbitTroop

Mayor of Southtown, ,
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2000
Posts
13,852
I own a lot of Neo Geo games, and I have all the roms too. I'll say it again, I would not have purchased a fraction of the games I have now if it were not for emulation. I got to play the games, and know which ones I really wanted to buy, and which I could skip. 80 games later, I would say emulation really got me into the Neo. I also know that one day my expensive carts may fail, and for that time I have the ROMs to reburn any chips I may need to, and keep my Neo games working for a long time.

Simple fact, Neo on a computer is nothing like neo on a real system. I bought a ton of games just for that reason... And plus, games on my cab are just so much more fun to play... Anyway, Roms are not 100% bad, but the problem is a lot of people use them as a way to just get games for free. When the games are real old, it is not a problem, but in the case of KOF2K1, it hurt the sales somewhat for that game (it did, even if it was a little, it did). Anyway, the Episode II thing is a good point, but it is also a similar situation. There is no way in hell I am going to download Episode II and watch it on my tiny computer screen, it needs to be experienced in the theater... oh well, some people will always want everything for free, and there is not much we can do about that,

-Nick
 

buster_broon

The Rock,
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Posts
4,098
Originally posted by nruva:
<strong>I own a lot of Neo Geo games, and I have all the roms too. I'll say it again, I would not have purchased a fraction of the games I have now if it were not for emulation. I got to play the games, and know which ones I really wanted to buy, and which I could skip. 80 games later, I would say emulation really got me into the Neo. I also know that one day my expensive carts may fail, and for that time I have the ROMs to reburn any chips I may need to, and keep my Neo games working for a long time.

Simple fact, Neo on a computer is nothing like neo on a real system. I bought a ton of games just for that reason... And plus, games on my cab are just so much more fun to play... Anyway, Roms are not 100% bad, but the problem is a lot of people use them as a way to just get games for free. When the games are real old, it is not a problem, but in the case of KOF2K1, it hurt the sales somewhat for that game (it did, even if it was a little, it did). Anyway, the Episode II thing is a good point, but it is also a similar situation. There is no way in hell I am going to download Episode II and watch it on my tiny computer screen, it needs to be experienced in the theater... oh well, some people will always want everything for free, and there is not much we can do about that,

-Nick</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed all the way!!!!!

I too own around 60 Neo AES carts and 35 MVS and i have various emulators - but you know people on this board don't like the idea of roms and putting a couple of paragraphs down on a dedicated fan-site is just going to insite flaming of the highest order

No matter what you believe (i agree to an extent) there is no point bringing this up within these forums

:( :( :(
 

Makismo

Ghost of Captain Kidd
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
1,670
I like to play before I buy. There is only one Neo Geo arcade machine in my area and it has: Super Sidekicks 3, Metal Slug 3, Metal Slug 2, and Metal Slug 2 (why two games in the same machine?). That is slim pickings. I download the ROM and play it on Neo Rage X and if I like the game - I buy it. If the game turns out to be crap then I delete the ROM and never think about that game again. Downloading Roms is like renting a game. You try it and if you like it - then go buy it. It is as simple as that. Besides SNK (dead company) doesn't make any money off those old games because people want the latest and greatest at the arcade. Those old games either get put in a warehouse or end up on ebay or someone's collection. I heard this straight from an arcade operator who must have a bazillion Neo Geo MVS games. Do what you want though.
 

candycab

Vice's Love Slave
Joined
May 3, 2002
Posts
2,167
I agree with Nruva and Buster_Broon, I have just about all the rage x roms and a ton of mame roms.

I still own several coin-ops along with my mvs

everyone gets all steamed over roms constanly ,

which is rather lame when you have to consider that there is nothing like the real thing,

and also there is no one left {company} wise to hurt by using them anyway !

I still think they are the best thing in the world as far as trying before you buy .
 

Mr. T

Kuroko's Training Dummy
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Posts
72
Originally posted by Katsu:
<strong>I'm still pretty new to this forum, and I've only recently noticed the anti-rom/emulator sentiment within this community.

Before I even start, let me say that I own my own MVS, and I've owned both an AES and a NeoGeo CD. I've bought all my own software for each of these systems. . . all of them legit. That being said, here I go.

I don't quite understand the rationale that some of the forum members use to come to the conclusion that ROMS and emulation are bad for the NeoGeo community. If the NeoGeo was a living system (nevermind the one or two games coming out this year, I'll get to that later) I could understand why hardcore fans would be anti-ROM. I mean, the only way for a company to continue to exist and produce new games is to sell games it's already produced. But now that SNK has died, and most of these games aren't being produced anymore, what harm could come from playing some of these games in emulation form? Is playing a non-current game in ROM form taking money away from SNK anymore? Absolutely not. And unless Playmore (or whoever) starts reproducing these games, they won't lose any money either.

The only POSSIBLE businesses that could lose money are arcades (or route operators.) But, realistically, a signficant number of people are NOT gonna run out to the arcade every day to play Metal Slug. If they pass by a Metal Slug game at an arcade, and they're an MS fan, they'll plop down a quarter whether they have the ROM or not. And just because they play a game at home doesn't mean they're willing to play it an arcade either. Additionally, playing a fighting game at home just doesn't compare to playing it at an aracde. What's mising? The competition! So I can see people practicing ROMs at home and then going to the arcade to play real people. I really think that arcade revenue lost, at this point in time, due to ROMs is quite small and largely insignificant.

As you all are quite aware, some NeoGeo games are incredibly rare and subsequently expensive. Only diehard collectors (or rich ones) can afford to own these games in their true form. But really, what harm can be done by letting others less fortunate than themselves play the same games emulated? Is the game going to devalue? No. There are still only X number of real copies of the game available, and a true colletor will only want the original game. And this isn't the stock market. You aren't a TRUE colletor if you only bought the game because you think its value will increase anyway.

So what about these NEW games? MS4, KOF2k1, KOF2k2, etc.? My thoughts on these games is that they're in limited production and not available as playable ROMs anyway (at least not that I know of.) But even if working ROMs exist, with the number of dedicated fans out there, and knowing full well that the hardware is just about dead, I'm sure there will be limited runs and all produced copies of new games will be sold regardless of emulation.

In all honesty, I think emulation brings in NEW fans at this point. People playing ROMs on their computer and loving it will just make them yearn to play the games on a REAL system. I've already seen a couple of posts where younger fans are already planning to spend their hard-earned cash on hardware and games. Do you think they play the ROMs? I'm sure most of them do. And the more they play, the more they'll want a system.

I will admit to trying out ROMs before buying the cart. I see no harm in this whatsoever. And if it's a crappy game, I'm not even going to play the ROM anymore. Why would I? The game sucks.

To conclude, let me just say that I think ROMs are a good thing at this point and that my thoughts on NeoGeo ROMs are solely based on the NeoGeos current state. If this were 1993, it would be a different story. Whether ROMs killed the NeoGeo in the first place (I don't think they did) is irrelevant as it's dead/dying now as a viable hardware platform and nobody can change that now. And that fact cannot be challenged.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that all new fans and even the old fans will only be buying USED hardware and software anyway (again not counting the 1 or 2 new games coming out.) And if ROMs discourage the re-selling of used hardware/softare, then no real harm is done to the companies that originally made the hardware/software. In fact, if you really think about it, it could be said that people making money off of USED hardware/software sales are the ones really hurting the original game producers as reduced priced used products compete for customers of the new from-the-factory products.

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Katsu ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that ROM's and emulation is fine, as long as they both fall into the right hands. I mean, f you get the average joe getting a hold of an emulator and a couple of roms and they dont know SHIT about videogames, and they say,"Hey! This is kewl, you can play these games for FREE!! I cant wait to tell all of my (dumbass) buddies about these FREE GAMES!!" --I personally think that's what brings Emulation down the most, the chumps that thinks that its all about the "free games"
Ive owned my AES system ever since Ive been in Middle School(and Im 23 now), and for a couple of years now, Ive collected(and have) all the NeoGeo Roms w\NeoRage and I play the emulator either whenever I am at my computer and I want to play a Neo game, or if my TV is being used by someone and I cant hook up my Neo, or if I am looking at purchasing a game for my Neo, and I want to know if the game is any good or not, so I check it out on the emu and I decide whether or not it would be worth it for me to purchase said game or not. (Damn, that was a long sentence)

Just my take on it..

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. T ]</p>
 

Katsu

Crazed MVS Addict
Joined
May 1, 2002
Posts
145
You know what I've noticed? All the posters that aren't against ROMs and emulation are farily new members. Maybe we're the new breed? :p

EDIT: I mean new breed forum-members not new-breed NeoGeo owners/fans.

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Katsu ]</p>
 

SonGohan

Made of Wood
20 Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2001
Posts
23,659
I'm quite suprised this hasn't turned into a "you're a troll", "fuck you rom boy", and "you're a cheapass" debate already. These are some good responses. I pretty much agree with what Spinmaster has already stated.
 

xonox

Armored Scrum Object
Joined
Oct 10, 2001
Posts
251
I got into arcade gaming again after playing stuff in MAME. I went to arcades again after a few years of not going there. I discovered that neo-geo was still alive because of emulation, i thought the system died...

So now i have spent all my money on neo-geo and other arcade boards. Emulation is fine, for older games. Anything less than 2-3 years old shouldn't be emulated i think.

Yes, emulation can be positive... sometimes.
 

Daisuke Jigen

R.I.P.,, Dear Friend,
Joined
Sep 18, 2000
Posts
4,577
Originally posted by K9999:
<strong>I could write a couple dozen paragraphs on why I don't like roms&emulators, but I won't. I'll say this.

ROMS = BAD
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Says the man with the sprite rip in his sig. <img src="graemlins/shame.gif" border="0" alt="[Shame]" />
 

Magnaflux

Onigami Isle Castaway
20 Year Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Posts
13,738
Emulation is a double-edged sword. The internet is too vast to stop it. Big software companies cannot stop all roms from being published on the web. The upside is many new people are being brought in the fold as a result. Not everyone d/l roms and plays those exclusively (those would be losers). I think most who d/l roms want to try the game out or see new games (emulators still suck ass IMO).
 
K

K9999

Guest
Originally posted by Daisuke Jigen:

Says the man with the sprite rip in his sig. <hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[LOL]" />

Good point, I'll have to get rid of that. Makes me look like a hypocrite.
 

johnf878

Zero's Secretary
Joined
Apr 25, 2002
Posts
151
I used to be an emulation freak until I realized the subtle differences between emulation and the real thing. There's the slight nuances in the sound and graphics, but worst of all, button lag. Like in Leagues Bowling or Top Players golf or any other game with a meter that needs precision, there's an extra split second between the time you hit the button and when it actually registers. Very annoying after playing the real games.
I'm slowly abandoning emulation. What's undeniable about emulation though is enhancements over the real thing, such as Kalleira, enhanced audio/video, state saving, and high score saving. The emulators allow you to retain your high scores and AES doesn't.
Emulation is supposedly perfectly legal as long as you own the actual game, but it seems like it will always be considered a dirty little addiction either way.
 

RevQuixo

Rugal's Panther
20 Year Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2001
Posts
3,890
My 2 cents.

I am not against emulation per se, but rather against the idiocy that is attracted by emulation. The real rpoblem with the emulation community is that there are elements within it that do not understand, comprehend, or care about the well-being and history of the companies that created these fine games. Instead of supporting SNK/Playmore they instead spam up emu forums with questions as to where they can find the roms for kof2k1. I can honestly say that emulation is what started me on the road to arcade collecting. (Hell I sold nruva one of his first MVS carts many moons ago) and without "gecko" (the first neo emulator) I would not have bought an AES and then MVS. However, r0mz kiddies who do not care about SNK are typically the same people who blatantly copy psx/ps2/dreamcast/pc games and their attitude that they DESERVE free stuff is not only wrong, but damaging to our hobby. If it takes a strong anti-emulation stance to ward off rom trolls, then it is a evil that I tolerate.

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: RevQuixo ]</p>
 
H

Hakkun

Guest
FUCK THE ROMZZzzZZZZZZZzzzzzZ!

"I play the romz", "I own an AES"...

I DON'T GIVE A FUCK! You simply can't get the point so STOP THE EMU SHIT NOW AND FOREVER!
 

RevQuixo

Rugal's Panther
20 Year Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2001
Posts
3,890
Originally posted by Hakkun:
<strong>Isn't a little bit strange that SNK called a dog "Tag"?</strong><hr></blockquote>

This makes no sense by the way.

The dog is not named Tag..They are "Dog Tags" referring to the ID badges that military personnel wear. Also it should be "Isn't it a little bit strange.." if you were going to say it. Plus, how exactly is it strange in the first place? Even if the Dog WAS named tag (which he isn't) how does that register as being odd. Is it ironic somehow?

Sorry, slightly off-topic, but it bugs me...

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: RevQuixo ]</p>
 

SPINMASTER X

I AM NOT FRENCHMAN,, I AM A HUMAN BEING!,
20 Year Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2001
Posts
16,953
Just Kaillera alone should make all of the Rom haterz shut up. The ability to play Roms online without having to wait for adapters(or never ever seeing one like in the neo geo's case) is a Godsend. You can now back up the shit you talk with a quick match.

Not too long ago there was supposed to be an online battle between Orochinagi.com and Neo-Geo.com but it never happened. I guess it was cuz everybody here felt all guilty for having roms and shit, oh well. I know i was gung ho for a battle!! I don't care what anybody says.

Kaillera is just awesome.
 

garou_d

Aero Fighter,
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Posts
2,220
fuck off :mad:

you have plenty of shitty site wich are talking about emu - so go there !!!

and don't try to convice me on emu - SNK is maybe dead but I'm not !

I've only 8 emu games - I own them !!!

and the price cart isn't a reason to play on emu - you have a lot's of carts which aren't $$$

get out !
 

Shito

King of Typists,
20 Year Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Posts
9,358
Nor good nor evil can ever be within any object.
Good or evil always are in the different subjects who uses that object.
 

Baby Bonnie Hood

King's Dry Cleaner
Joined
Sep 28, 2001
Posts
389
Originally posted by the_move:
<strong>You can not beat the real thing!</strong><hr></blockquote>

But what if you can't find the real thing no matter how hard you try? I have never ever seen Twinkle Star Sprites anywhere else other than in my PC in ROM format; that's how rare non-KoF Neo-Geo games are in my area. I'd really love to play TSS in the arcade, but it's just not possible because no arcade I've been to has it (and I've been to a lot). Say what you want, but thanks to emulation, I can play my favorite games without having to find some obscure arcade hoping that they might have it.

And TSS is more than 5 years old, technically a classic. So I'm pretty sure emulating this is okay. If it isn't, then we might as well forget about emulating Pac-Man as well.
 
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