ohh, hmm I see

kernow · Sep 8, 2003

I got an hour or so in with KOF94 last night.

The presentation, backgrounds and overall feel make me place it higher than a post-2000 KOF.

Kyo's stage, with the crowds of People and the Policeman 'referee'.

China, lovely.

Pao Pao cafe.. incredible.

Italy/England .. meh

Basically what I'm trying to say is, the music and backgrounds make you feel like effort has gone into this title. I don't really get that from the Racing Car stage, or many from 2k1.

Surely the dev team responsible for KOF2k++ has played the earlier versions and knows what is expected from Neo Games. You could place the Pao Pao cafe background in kof2001 and it'd piss all over the other bg's... shame.

Sometimes I wonder.

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

Sometimes they care more about gameplay than the graphics.

While 2k1 ain't the brightest one in the bunch gameplay wise, I'd take it miles ahead of how KOF94 plays.

That and the characters are so poorly animated in 94 (yes in compared to 2k1 which isn't animation friendly) that they look like mental patients.

kernow · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:
Sometimes they care more about gameplay than the graphics.

While 2k1 ain't the brightest one in the bunch gameplay wise, I'd take it miles ahead of how KOF94 plays.

That and the characters are so poorly animated in 94 (yes in compared to 2k1 which isn't animation friendly) that they look like mental patients.

mm, a few good points there.

SonGohan · Sep 8, 2003

Dude, it's amazing what SNK did with their backrounds in the early/mid 90s. Sometimes I wonder if they're just facing a big creative block when it comes to music/backrounds. Shit, look at Geese Howard's stage in FFS, Sieger's stage in SS2, Robert's stage in AOF2, the Pao Pao Cafe in KOF 94, or any of the Ninja Master's stages. Man, they could be doing so much better. I like some of the newer BGs though, like the desert stage in KOF 2000, but many leave a lot to be desired.

kernow · Sep 8, 2003

people say we need more powerful hardware I say bullshit.

an arrangement of pixels on the screen is an arrangement of pixels on the screen, its like having a smaller piece of paper and a really tiny pen, you can still draw fantastic art, its just more difficult to make it look good with a small medium.

*I'm finally going insane*

Anyway, its the developers/artist's limits that are approaching it seems, not the 'canvas' which is neogeo.

We _can_ still have amazing stages such as the Pao Pao cafe, et cetera, it only takes people getting off their asses.

*thinks of a cool looking stage to make*

FeelGood · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:
While 2k1 ain't the brightest one in the bunch gameplay wise, I'd take it miles ahead of how KOF94 plays.

KoF 94 > KoF 95 > KoF 96 > KoF 97 > KoF 98 > KoF 99 > KoF 2000 > KoF 2002 > KoF r2 > KoF r1 > KoF 2001 > KoF Howling Blood

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

One thing I have to agree with here is the sentiment that comes off this.

SNKP is being VERY VERY Lazy.

How do I know this? Not from the BG's in KOF94/95/etc ("detail" be damned, I think they're a bit too pixelated personally), but from SvC Chaos.

Look at Hugo, Dahlsim, and to a lesser extent Chun Li. I mean LOOK at those damned sprites! Fuckin fluid, fuckin huge, colorful, fuckin next-gen.

After seeing that stuff it makes me almost a bit angry knowing the system could handle those kinds of sprites and we're not seeing it in every character, in every new game, in the year 2003.

If they could do a game wich chars like that on the Neo I'd STFU about "new hardware/Atomiswave/etc" as it wouldn't be necessary (although helpful). Hell the only reason I still think they should move on is because if they did jump to new hardware they'd HAVE to redraw all the sprites and effects for the new games, nothing could be carried over.

But no they give us ROTD and Matrimelee, which ain't ugly or badly animated but it ain't no SF3 and it's obvious the Neo COULD do something along those lines. If only they'd get the animators to pull it off... frown

FeelGood · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:
Hell the only reason I still think they should move on is because if they did jump to new hardware they'd HAVE to redraw all the sprites and effects for the new games, nothing could be carried over.

The Atomiswave - I have heard it is a souped up dreamcast.

Well, ever play KoF 99 dreammatch (the DC KoF 98, so to speak)???

Same sprites, stretched, shitty looking. Lazy, yes.

All the ports to the PSX - KoF 95~99 - same sprites.

You see, SNKP will always be lazy, as long as there's a way.

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

EvilWasabi:

JHendrix:
Hell the only reason I still think they should move on is because if they did jump to new hardware they'd HAVE to redraw all the sprites and effects for the new games, nothing could be carried over.

Click to expand...

The Atomiswave - I have heard it is a souped up dreamcast.

Well, ever play KoF 99 dreammatch (the DC KoF 98, so to speak)???

Same sprites, stretched, shitty looking. Lazy, yes.

All the ports to the PSX - KoF 95~99 - same sprites.

You see, SNKP will always be lazy, as long as there's a way.

Yes but those are ports which means taking the one game and bringing it over.

Of course if they went to new hardware and kept the Neo sprites I think it would be an idea too stupid that even SNKP would never actually do it.

I could be wrong, but I doubt even they're that dumb.

EDIT: Few other things that would benefit if they moved on:

1.) No more bootlegs
2.) No more ROMZ
3.) Many many more colors for the sprites and BG's.

<small>[ September 08, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: JHendrix ]</small>

Magnaflux · Sep 8, 2003

Oh, fucking next-gen. annoyed

kernow · Sep 8, 2003

I think atomiswave might be piratable as was the DC.

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

kernow:
I think atomiswave might be piratable as was the DC.

They're their own proprietary carts, not CD's. As far as I can tell I've not seen bootlegs of Naomi games or Atomiswave games. Of course they're cheap enough that boots aren't exactly economical to produce.

And even if they were to bootleg the carts you can encrypt the data a hell of a lot better with a 128bit data/adress bus than you can with a 16bit data/adress bus. And as a Linux guru you should know how hard it is to break a 128bit encryption scheme, let alone one on a specialized system.

FeelGood · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:

EDIT: Few other things that would benefit if they moved on:

1.) No more bootlegs
2.) No more ROMZ
3.) Many many more colors for the sprites and BG's.

you know, as well as everyone else, that roms and bootlegging is only a matter of interest. If the interest exists, the Atomiwave could have an emulator out in a year. But right now, there are no games that people want to play. People salivate over KoF games, regardless of how shitty they have been coming out. No one salivates over Dolphin Blue. Guilty Gears? Burn them when they hit the PS2. No one cares.

kernow · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:

kernow:
I think atomiswave might be piratable as was the DC.

Click to expand...

They're their own proprietary carts, not CD's. As far as I can tell I've not seen bootlegs of Naomi games or Atomiswave games. Of course they're cheap enough that boots aren't exactly economical to produce.

And even if they were to bootleg the carts you can encrypt the data a hell of a lot better with a 128bit data/adress bus than you can with a 16bit data/adress bus. And as a Linux guru you should know how hard it is to break a 128bit encryption scheme, let alone one on a specialized system.

yes, but the Hitachi SH4 is a 32bit CPU, the only "128bitness" in the DC/Atomis other than the PVR buses, are the 128bit wide FPU registers, for fast 3d math of course, and alas these aren't suitable for encryption.

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

EvilWasabi:

JHendrix:

EDIT: Few other things that would benefit if they moved on:

1.) No more bootlegs
2.) No more ROMZ
3.) Many many more colors for the sprites and BG's.

Click to expand...

you know, as well as everyone else, that roms and bootlegging is only a matter of interest. If the interest exists, the Atomiwave could have an emulator out in a year. But right now, there are no games that people want to play. People salivate over KoF games, regardless of how shitty they have been coming out. No one salivates over Dolphin Blue. Guilty Gears? Burn them when they hit the PS2. No one cares.

If you follow the EMU community there is very much an interest in developing emulators for Model 2, Model 3, CPS-3, and System 246 emulators.

Problem is that these things use much more sophisticated processors than the 68000 which by the time EMU's became a possibility had about 32498723 different emulators already written for it for other, legitimate purposes.

Emulating a DC on current hardware (unless a emulator is put out by Sega, who has full documentation on all custom chips in the system) is neigh impossible. Hell if you look at Model 3 Emulation status they say it'll take at least a 4Ghz processor or more to get it even halfway playable.

As for PS2 piracy, it's no where near as popular or widespread as PS1 piracy as Mod chips tend to fuck up systems over time and aren't reliable.

kernow · Sep 8, 2003

.. but 2k1 still looks like ass

its like my gran made it.

FeelGood · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:
As for PS2 piracy, it's no where near as popular or widespread as PS1 piracy as Mod chips tend to fuck up systems over time and aren't reliable.

I see how the DC may be hard to emulate, but seeing as the bootleg scene does exist for the PS2 and the dreamcast, and I don't is there one for the X-Box? You can't discount the fact that moving to new hardware does not mean eliminating bootlegs. They exist, people use them, AND if there are a lot of games people want to get, versus 1 or 2, I bet they'd more likely consider the option of chipping their PS2.

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

kernow:

JHendrix:

kernow:
I think atomiswave might be piratable as was the DC.

Click to expand...

They're their own proprietary carts, not CD's. As far as I can tell I've not seen bootlegs of Naomi games or Atomiswave games. Of course they're cheap enough that boots aren't exactly economical to produce.

And even if they were to bootleg the carts you can encrypt the data a hell of a lot better with a 128bit data/adress bus than you can with a 16bit data/adress bus. And as a Linux guru you should know how hard it is to break a 128bit encryption scheme, let alone one on a specialized system.

Click to expand...

yes, but the Hitachi SH4 is a 32bit CPU, the only "128bitness" in the DC/Atomis other than the PVR buses, are the 128bit wide FPU registers, for fast 3d math of course, and alas these aren't suitable for encryption.

Toche'

You can still do a lot more with 32bits than you can with 16, but the SH4 is a bit more custom and complex than a 68000, ROMZ ain't coming any time soon. Plus since it uses larger ROMZ it becomes much more expensive to pirate the game for. I mean EPROMS that big cost a lot more than the small (by comparison) ROMZ that are used in a Neo cart.

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

EvilWasabi:

JHendrix:
As for PS2 piracy, it's no where near as popular or widespread as PS1 piracy as Mod chips tend to fuck up systems over time and aren't reliable.

Click to expand...

I see how the DC may be hard to emulate, but seeing as the bootleg scene does exist for the PS2 and the dreamcast, and I don't is there one for the X-Box? You can't discount the fact that moving to new hardware does not mean eliminating bootlegs. They exist, people use them, AND if there are a lot of games people want to get, versus 1 or 2, I bet they'd more likely consider the option of chipping their PS2.

It'd elminate the problem of Arcade bootlegs, and the whole "PS2 bootlegs" problem is still evident with current ports.

That said there are pirate scenes for PS2 and XBox (more so for XBox since those chips are very reliable), but PS2 mods aside from the flip top are shitty. Most cause overheating and other problems with reliability. That and they're expensive as hell (Chip's are like $40-$80 and the clips you practically NEED to mount them correctly are an extra $20-$30) and the install fee's are also high (since a 26 Solder point job to MUCH smaller points isn't easy for most people).

They'd make much more revenue in the arcade market and just as much (if not more) in the PS2 market by moving to new hardware (assuming they upgrade the graphics to SF3/GGX2 levels).

c.t.h · Sep 8, 2003

Maybe guys,

the backgrounds on the new games are crap, because the new programmers don't know how to use the neo's hardware. I mean, think about it - if you go to video game developing school, do they teach you how to program/ design for such an old console? If capcom got all the old snk veterans or whatever, maybe we're seeing a bunch of guys that don't know how to use the hardware.

Just a thought.

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

c.t.h:
Maybe guys,

the backgrounds on the new games are crap, because the new programmers don't know how to use the neo's hardware. I mean, think about it - if you go to video game developing school, do they teach you how to program/ design for such an old console? If capcom got all the old snk veterans or whatever, maybe we're seeing a bunch of guys that don't know how to use the hardware.

Just a thought.

Well yeah, ease of development is another issue.

Assembly programming is very hard and time consuming. Maybe that's why they reuse so much shit, they're on tight schedules you know.

Point in case: There are many many good reasons to jump to new hardware and very few good reasons to stick with the old.

Robert · Sep 8, 2003

Speaking about the background's quality of 94, lot of them look like a bunch of pixels for me. The pao pao cafe was a bright idea, ruined by the complete lack of clearence. The best one is certainly the japan team one. The other are average+ to good.

tsukaesugi · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:
Point in case: There are many many good reasons to jump to new hardware and very few good reasons to stick with the old.

Sadly however, new hardware would mean no new homesystem.

It would be strange only owning SNKP games for other systems... a PS2 KOF2003 or 04 in 3D with no homecart is a thought I don't relish...

JHendrix · Sep 8, 2003

tsukaesugi:

JHendrix:
Point in case: There are many many good reasons to jump to new hardware and very few good reasons to stick with the old.

Click to expand...

Sadly however, new hardware would mean no new homesystem.

It would be strange only owning SNKP games for other systems... a PS2 KOF2003 or 04 in 3D with no homecart is a thought I don't relish...

See I'm one of those bastards who only has a Neo because I really just love the way the games play to death, so having them on new hardware with home versions only available for PS2 as a good thing: it'd be the same as the arcade and it'd be cheaper.

Not that there's anything wrong with loving the games and the system as well, just that in these situations our ideas will conflict a bit. wink

Amix · Sep 8, 2003

JHendrix:

Toche'

Touché.

And for some reason backgrounds are not important in games lately; just look at CVS2, GGXX#Reload, SS0, SVC, and so on. I think backgrounds are important - apparently that way of thinking isn't universal.

ohh, hmm I see

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