Power rankings for KoF/SF universes

One of the other threads in this section has sort of taken a "Mr. X" is stronger than "Mr.Y" slant, so I thought I'd open a separate thread to discuss who people think the major powers are in the two universes.

So who do you think are the 10 major powers in each universe? List the two universes separately if you want or make one unified list. All I ask is that you give some indications as to why you think 'so and so' should be ranked where ever you rank them (and note - 'cause he's cool' and 'he's the shit' aren't reasons ).

If this is anything like the other thread I'm sure this will develop into some excellent discussions. Just remember the thread author is not responsible for 'debate' related injuries....

(flicks lights on and off - FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! j/k)



[This message has been edited by Apathy Wind (edited April 30, 2001).]

Geez I dont know who would win, a mark of power for the Capcom bosses is their ability to resurrect. Jedah, Gill, Bilstein, Bison, Pyron(probably), all have come back to life in some way.

here we go.
capcom
akuma
ryu
m.bison
gill
urien
ken
sagat... shit, man i'm drawing a blank.
the question was asked for the SF universe,
so i can't put cap. commando or anything like
that in there. that's it for my capcom i guess. now,
SNK
rugal/omega rugal
orochi
goenitz
geese howard
terry bogard
kyo
iori/orochi iori
k
ryo
lord wolfgang krauser

i did'nt necessarily list them in an order. just who came to mind first.

Capcom:
Ryu
Ken
M. Bison
Gill
Sagat
Akuma
Rose
Oro
Gouken
Goutetsu

(Do the last two count? They have never appeared, but I guess they are a part of the SF universe, if not then just stick Chun Li and Guile in or something....)

SNK:
I think that
Fomaman got most of it right, just get rid of K', Ryo and someone else (Can't decide on who) and replace them with the Orochi team.... I heard they all had powers comparable with Goenitz so if he's there, they need to be too.

------------------

Rain and Fomaman - I agree with your lists for the most part. My own lists would go some thing like this:

Capcom:

Gill - Between the resurrection super and that six-wing angel blast this guy ranks at the top for me.
Gouki - This guy has the moves and the power - particularly Shin Gouki. Shin's total lack of recovery time (in SFZ2 at least) makes him nearly overpowering.
Gen - One of the SF masters. If this character is Gouki's primary rival he has to be on this list. His asassination techniques and ability to block the Raging Demon show his power.
Ryu - SF's golden boy, Ryu gets stronger each game. His ranking on this list could easily be swapped with Gen's; I list him after Gen mostly because of Gen's role with Gouki and Gen's experience. Ryu is a ranking power but isn't the strongest in the SF universe.
M. Bison - The psycho powered boss definitely has the power to make the list but his reliance on outside factors (ie. Psycho drive) puts him lower then the other SF bosses (plus Gouki whips him good in his SSF2:T appearance).
Oro - Another master fighter. His ability to compete with the younger fighters while only using one hand is proof of his ability. He's less focused on battle then the other masters (Gouki, Gen) - hence the one arm bound thing - so I rank him a bit lower.
Rose - She shares the same power as M.Bison. Plus she has the ability to seal Bison's power. She ranks lower than her counterpart since she doesn't have the auxillary equipment Bison uses. That and she seems less drawn to battle then Bison (he wants to rule over all and destroy all opponents - she wants only to stop him and seems more reluctant/relaxed against other fighters. Definitely focused against Bison though).
Sagat - Former SF champion. Sagat has the power and ability to compete but he has definitely lost a step over time. It's eluded to in SFZ3 that he lost to Dan - that knocks you down a couple pegs in any ranking.
Alex - The new Ryu of the SF universe. He's still young and relatively unproven so he ranks lower on the list then most.
Ken - He's Ryu's rival, so he must be considerably powerful. I rank him last out of the top ten since his will to fight seems to have decreased considerably after the birth of his son (only competing in tourni's were Ryu fights).

Hmm... I think I'll post the SNK list later. This took longer than I thought it would.

That was a great list for the Capcom side. I'm looking forward to your SNK list

I pretty much agree with everybodies capcom list(except alex)but everybody is forgetting the darkstalkers.They easily rank as power-houses.Especially demitri,morrigan,pyron,donovan,and jedah.

bilstein of star gladiator is also a power-house.The guy can fly,has a huge energy sword and serious energy projection.

too bad this isnt about them and only streetfighters......

[ May 04, 2001: Message edited by: HIDDEN WARRIOR ]

Originally posted by Apathy Wind:
<STRONG>Rain and Fomaman - I agree with your lists for the most part. My own lists would go some thing like this:

Capcom:

Gill - Between the resurrection super and that six-wing angel blast this guy ranks at the top for me.
Gouki - This guy has the moves and the power - particularly Shin Gouki. Shin's total lack of recovery time (in SFZ2 at least) makes him nearly overpowering.
Gen - One of the SF masters. If this character is Gouki's primary rival he has to be on this list. His asassination techniques and ability to block the Raging Demon show his power.
Ryu - SF's golden boy, Ryu gets stronger each game. His ranking on this list could easily be swapped with Gen's; I list him after Gen mostly because of Gen's role with Gouki and Gen's experience. Ryu is a ranking power but isn't the strongest in the SF universe.
M. Bison - The psycho powered boss definitely has the power to make the list but his reliance on outside factors (ie. Psycho drive) puts him lower then the other SF bosses (plus Gouki whips him good in his SSF2:T appearance).
Oro - Another master fighter. His ability to compete with the younger fighters while only using one hand is proof of his ability. He's less focused on battle then the other masters (Gouki, Gen) - hence the one arm bound thing - so I rank him a bit lower.
Rose - She shares the same power as M.Bison. Plus she has the ability to seal Bison's power. She ranks lower than her counterpart since she doesn't have the auxillary equipment Bison uses. That and she seems less drawn to battle then Bison (he wants to rule over all and destroy all opponents - she wants only to stop him and seems more reluctant/relaxed against other fighters. Definitely focused against Bison though).
Sagat - Former SF champion. Sagat has the power and ability to compete but he has definitely lost a step over time. It's eluded to in SFZ3 that he lost to Dan - that knocks you down a couple pegs in any ranking.
Alex - The new Ryu of the SF universe. He's still young and relatively unproven so he ranks lower on the list then most.
Ken - He's Ryu's rival, so he must be considerably powerful. I rank him last out of the top ten since his will to fight seems to have decreased considerably after the birth of his son (only competing in tourni's were Ryu fights).

Hmm... I think I'll post the SNK list later. This took longer than I thought it would.</STRONG>

Click to expand...

Alex above Ken?!!?
Ken would hand his ass to him!

And now for the KoF rankings. I'm sure there will be those who disagree with these rankings (hell, I may even disagree after some further consideration) but here goes:

NOTE: With the KoF games being team based fighters, the KoF end bosses are given ultra powerful moves so as to make it a challenge for three character teams. This degree of power pretty much establishes them in the top five of this ranking. Anyway...

Orochi - The ultimate power of the Orochi Saga. Despite the fact that the NEST cartel bosses come later in the storyline I see the Orochi characters as being ultimately more powerful than the NEST characters (in that Orochi power is a mystical mega power and NEST is just an organization).
Goenitz - Arguably the most powerful of the Four Heavenly Kings of Orochi (he fights on his own versus the team aspect of the Orochi NFT). While not as powerful as Orochi himself, he has the control of his power than Rugal lacks.
Rugal/Omega Rugal - The original Orochi power. Rugal's downfall versus the other Orochi bosses is the fact unlike Orochi or Goenitz, his power consumes him. His departure after 95 shows that his power is less than either of the afore mentioned bosses (his 98 appearance being merely a dream match). He does deserve credit though for being the only KoF boss to survive to the next years tournament.
Zero - The most powerful NEST member revealed up to date. He obviously outweighs his underling Krizalid, but his use of technology (ie. Zero Cannon) for his schemes give the impression of being less powerful than the more personally powerful Orochi's.
Krizalid - As a boss, Krizalid shows he is still a considerably powerful fighter. But the same limitations than apply to Zero apply to him (plus the fact he is supposed to be below Zero). Essentially, just read Zero's entry and take it down a notch.

And now for the good stuff..

Terry - I place Terry above the chief KoF character for a pretty simple reason. Unlike Kyo, Terry has proved he is a champion on his own. This is to say that Kyo's KoF victories were mostly the result of team battle. Whether he's fighting along side Benimaru and Goro or Iori and Chizuru, Kyo's victories always appear to have some degree of assistance from outside parties. Terry on the other hand has defeated major powers (Geese, Krauser) on his own - and multiple times at that. Kyo's destiny was to defeat the powers of Orochi; that accomplished he has taken a step down in KoF status. Mind you, his space has not been filled by Terry, but all things considered I would say Terry is overall a higher power than Kyo (but not by much).
Kyo - Obviously this guys going to be on this list. His strength and perseverance illustrate his strength. Having bested Rugal, Goenitz, and even Orochi himself doesn't hurt either. Yet his power does seem to be somewhat specialized against Orochi (thus his status reduction in KoF99/00). For that reason and those listed under Terry, I rank him as the second most powerful non-boss fighter in the KoF universe (although I could see it going the other way).
Geese - Some might say Geese's appearance (and subsequent defeat) in a team for KoF96 hurts his power ranking. I can see this point of view, but there are mitigating variables. Geese wasn't on a normal team ala Kyo or Terry but on the boss team - fought last amongst all teams. There is also some delibiration about whether he possessed the power of the scrolls from FF. While I can't answer that; I can say that it's obvious that Geese is a significant power in the KoF universe. His multiple appearances as a FF boss illustrate this. Even that aside, Geese shows a cunning not exhibited in other KoF bosses/characters. His manipulation of other fighters, contrived schemes, and multiple returns from death show that. All this combined leaves him a space on this ranking.
Chizuru - You've gotta respect this woman's abilities. She showed considerable strength as a sub boss in 96. That aside she has shown abilities beyond brute strength in her orchestrating the defeat of Orochi. Her loss of power from 96 and rebirth as a 'normal' character in 97 lessen her overall ranking but she still is a force to reckoned with (in body and mind).
Iori - The final KoF power is a tough choice. Ryo came up, but his lack of acheivements (due to the end of AoF series) hurts him. K' seems to new, inexperienced. Krauser came up but his lack of overall activity hurts him as well. That leaves Iori. Much like Ryu/Ken, Iori must have power to be a legitimate rival to Kyo. Plus his transformation into Riot of Blood state showed his true potential. Iori ranks last out of the ten due to his lack of accomplishment. While he helped to defeat the later Orochi powers, he still hasn't shown any real success against his primary rival (even Ken supposedly defeated Ryu in the first two Zero games). Iori's claim to fame seems to be beating up on his poor teammates. He only achieve true strength through the Orochi power. While still one of the top fighters, these things lessen Iori compared to the others.

[ May 04, 2001: Message edited by: Apathy Wind ]

Defending my rankings (Take 1)

Rain - I don't see Ken as that powerful a fighter (at least compared to the other powers). I mean, he hasn't really accomplished anything over his multiple appearances. He may have beaten Ryu in the SFZ1 or 2; that's pretty much it. He's never had the main character status in a SF game (and that storyline status equates pretty well to storyline power); he just kind of tags along with Ryu.

The whole lessening his fighting activity in the SF3 games hurts him too. It's like playing the actual fighting games themselves. If you play consistently, you maintain your abilities or improve them. If you slack off and don't play as much you start to lose a little bit. Now I'm sure Ken practices and all, but thats not the same as fighting powerful opponents in a true battle. It's like playing an arcade fighter against the computer or on the practice mode - you learn some but it's not the same. For all these reasons, I put Ken low on the list.

Alex on the other hand is Capcom's current #1 for the SF series. That says something for his power right there. Plus his enemy is Gill, who is overwhelmingly powerful (more so than Ken's rival). He's young and inexperienced compared to the others but his raw power/drive/abilities put him on the list. And since Ken is in a big time slump, I see Alex as just surpassing him.

Plus they share the same stage in SF3:3S. If Ken could have, he'd have kicked Alex's ass outta there in a minute (no one shares Ken stage in any of the SF2 or SFZ games)

Hidden Warrior

I agree with you about the Vampire characters. I think most any Vampire fighter would destroy most any SF guy (the whole chainsaw for a leg, being able to fly, I can cut off my own head etc. thing). Same thing probably goes for Plasma Sword. That's why I limited it to SF guys. The SF universe is a bit more restained (restained being my replacement word for realistic. It's hard to say realistic about people who can throw fireballs or generate electricity )

[ May 04, 2001: Message edited by: Apathy Wind ]

Great job on the SNK list, too! Hopefully we'll see Andy on that list one day...I really think SNK should let him shine for once. Terry's the most powerful SNK fighter and all (at least from the "heroic" cast), but I've been looking forward to Andy getting his due for a loooooonnnnng time.

I believe ken is superior to alex simply because of his immense talent and the fact that his regular sparring partner is ryu while for alex its hugo.Also I believe ken can defeat ryu.Why?simple;just like haohmaru and genjuro,ryu has superior spiritual power while ken has superior physical power.In short,if bison was trying to mind control ryu,ryu could resist much longer then ken could because of his superior spiritual training but ken could fight ryu or bison better.The same goes for haohmaru and genjuro.Nobody wanted genjuro's soul.Mizuki wanted haohmaru'a soul.Genjuro has beaten haohmaru before because of his superiorority in the physical realm but genjuro has a weak soul.The bottom line is by saying that alex can beat ken is the same as saying that alex can beat ryu.

Originally posted by Apathy Wind:
<STRONG>One of the other threads in this section has sort of taken a "Mr. X" is stronger than "Mr.Y" slant, so I thought I'd open a separate thread to discuss who people think the major powers are in the two universes.

So who do you think are the 10 major powers in each universe? List the two universes separately if you want or make one unified list. All I ask is that you give some indications as to why you think 'so and so' should be ranked where ever you rank them (and note - 'cause he's cool' and 'he's the shit' aren't reasons

).

If this is anything like the other thread I'm sure this will develop into some excellent discussions. Just remember the thread author is not responsible for 'debate' related injuries....

(flicks lights on and off - FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! j/k)

[This message has been edited by Apathy Wind (edited April 30, 2001).]</STRONG>

Click to expand...

(Going with only fighters)

CAPCOM

1. Pyron - Ruler of the universe, but unpopular
2. Evil Ryu - Strongest Street Fighter in this incarnation
3. (Shin) Akuma - Second-strongest Street Fighter
4. M.Bison - Has the Psycho Power and Psycho Drive
5. Gill - Very powerful, but not as established as any of the above
6. Jedah - One of the three noblemen in the Dark Realm, has the power to collect souls
7. Sagat - Tried and true Street Fighter boss
8. Ken - Comparable to (normal) Ryu
9. Morrigan - Best fighter in the Dark Realm
10. Demitri - Just behind Morrigan

SNK

1. Rugal - Boss of SNK's largest-scope game three times
2. Orochi - Central to KoF story, but doesn't return twice as Rugal has
3. Geese - Long-standing major boss, biggest non-KoF boss
4. Goenitz - Second-strongest of the new Orochi
5. Zankuro - Most powerful SS character (?)
5. Krauser - Nearly as powerful as Geese
6. Riot of the Blood Iori - Would destroy any other non-boss SNK character in this form
7. Zero - KoF 2000 boss, more important than Krizilad (sp?)
8. Terry - FF main hero
9. Kyo - KoF main hero, but less established than Terry
10. Ryo - AoF hero

Originally posted by RiotoftheBlood:
(Going with only fighters)

CAPCOM

1. Pyron - Ruler of the universe, but unpopular
2. Evil Ryu - Strongest Street Fighter in this incarnation
3. (Shin) Akuma - Second-strongest Street Fighter
4. M.Bison - Has the Psycho Power and Psycho Drive
5. Gill - Very powerful, but not as established as any of the above
6. Jedah - One of the three noblemen in the Dark Realm, has the power to collect souls
7. Sagat - Tried and true Street Fighter boss
8. Ken - Comparable to (normal) Ryu
9. Morrigan - Best fighter in the Dark Realm
10. Demitri - Just behind Morrigan

Click to expand...

Nice ranking ROTB, though according to the Vampire Hunter 2 ending; Pyron's mental food to Jedah (OR however it goes?). Damn! I need to fire up Darkstalker 3 on the PSX and double check this again.

---------------------------------------------

"Don't be scared! I'll only cut off one of your heads! Guess!"

Originally posted by Apathy Wind:
<STRONG>Defending my rankings (Take 1)

Rain - I don't see Ken as that powerful a fighter (at least compared to the other powers). I mean, he hasn't really accomplished anything over his multiple appearances. He may have beaten Ryu in the SFZ1 or 2; that's pretty much it. He's never had the main character status in a SF game (and that storyline status equates pretty well to storyline power); he just kind of tags along with Ryu.

The whole lessening his fighting activity in the SF3 games hurts him too. It's like playing the actual fighting games themselves. If you play consistently, you maintain your abilities or improve them. If you slack off and don't play as much you start to lose a little bit. Now I'm sure Ken practices and all, but thats not the same as fighting powerful opponents in a true battle. It's like playing an arcade fighter against the computer or on the practice mode - you learn some but it's not the same. For all these reasons, I put Ken low on the list.

Alex on the other hand is Capcom's current #1 for the SF series. That says something for his power right there. Plus his enemy is Gill, who is overwhelmingly powerful (more so than Ken's rival). He's young and inexperienced compared to the others but his raw power/drive/abilities put him on the list. And since Ken is in a big time slump, I see Alex as just surpassing him.

Plus they share the same stage in SF3:3S. If Ken could have, he'd have kicked Alex's ass outta there in a minute (no one shares Ken stage in any of the SF2 or SFZ games)


[ May 04, 2001: Message edited by: Apathy Wind ]</STRONG>

Click to expand...

Ken beat Ryu in Alpha's 1 and 2, Ryu beats Alex in SF3: Third Strike, soooo... by that logic Ken would beat Alex. Remember that Alex hasn't been fighting very long and is still a youngster. Ken has been fighting for years and has a protege, Sean. I still say that Alex would beat Ken. Ken is more than just someone who "Tags along with Ryu" IMHO and is instead a great warrior by himself.

Hidden and Rain:

You guys make some interesting points about the whole Alex/Ken thing but I still disagree.

Rain - The winner of SF3:3S really can't be determined at this point (hopefully, Capcom will actually give us a clear indication of who won these tournaments in some future game. One of my Capcom irritations..). So maybe Ryu beat Alex and defeated Gill or maybe Alex defeated Ryu and fought Gill himself. Who knows? So that comparison can't really be used to determine their order.

Hidden - I like your observations about the spiritual power versus physical power. It makes sense and is supported by the super arts each fighter uses (Ryu's are more energy based, Ken's more physical). But Ken's glory days seem to be a bit behind him. And I think Capcom is saying that Alex could beat Ryu. Alex's 9th round boss in 3S is Ryu himself; showing a comparison at least - if not a symbolic passing of the torch. Capcom established Alex as the main character for the SF3 games and set him on a quest to defeat Gill. Now in order to have a chance in hell of defeating the ungodly overpowered Gill, Alex would need to be a considerable power himself. Plus there's never been a fighting game where the main character is not one of the top powered (if not the top powered) fighters. Otherwise we'd see a rash of Dan Fighter 2: Super Turbo's (actually, that'd be kinda cool...).

Alex's establishment as the new SF main character and his destiny to meet the superpowered Gill essentially puts him in the same place Ryu was in and around SF1. He is young and inexperienced, which is why I rank him far below the previous main character. And with Alex on the rise and Ken on the decline; then I still rank them #9 and #10 respectively.

Originally posted by Apathy Wind:
<STRONG>Hidden and Rain:

You guys make some interesting points about the whole Alex/Ken thing but I still disagree.

Rain - The winner of SF3:3S really can't be determined at this point (hopefully, Capcom will actually give us a clear indication of who won these tournaments in some future game. One of my Capcom irritations..). So maybe Ryu beat Alex and defeated Gill or maybe Alex defeated Ryu and fought Gill himself. Who knows? So that comparison can't really be used to determine their order.

Hidden - I like your observations about the spiritual power versus physical power. It makes sense and is supported by the super arts each fighter uses (Ryu's are more energy based, Ken's more physical). But Ken's glory days seem to be a bit behind him. And I think Capcom is saying that Alex could beat Ryu. Alex's 9th round boss in 3S is Ryu himself; showing a comparison at least - if not a symbolic passing of the torch. Capcom established Alex as the main character for the SF3 games and set him on a quest to defeat Gill. Now in order to have a chance in hell of defeating the ungodly overpowered Gill, Alex would need to be a considerable power himself. Plus there's never been a fighting game where the main character is not one of the top powered (if not the top powered) fighters. Otherwise we'd see a rash of Dan Fighter 2: Super Turbo's (actually, that'd be kinda cool...).

Alex's establishment as the new SF main character and his destiny to meet the superpowered Gill essentially puts him in the same place Ryu was in and around SF1. He is young and inexperienced, which is why I rank him far below the previous main character. And with Alex on the rise and Ken on the decline; then I still rank them #9 and #10 respectively.</STRONG>

Click to expand...

Good points, but, I'm talking about Alex's ending in third strike, where he is beaten by Ryu. This shows that even if Alex had the power to beat Gill, he still couldn't beat Ryu. I agree that Alex's ending maybe not the official ending, but it does show that Alex is not as strong as Ryu. Which in turn means Alex is not as strong as Ken.

I see a lot of 'this guy beat this guy and that guy beat this guy' type of stuff going on around here. Let me interject my thoughts on the whole subject, if you don't mind.

Characters don't HAVE to fight certain other characters to get to the final boss. Not every one of these games uses a tournament for its setting. Not every competition that begins as a fighting tournament ends under the same auspices. I'd be willing to bet that the Capcom writers would say Ryu never fought Alex due to circumstances in the storyline dictating plot twists that insured the two never fought. What those plot twists could is purely speculation.

As I said in another thread with similar subject matter, it's entirely possible that Ryu and Ken could have beaten the crap out of each other so bad when they fought that neither one could continue on, thus clearing the way for Alex.

Or maybe Ryu fought Alex and during the course of the battle the former learned the latter had a burning desire to fight Gill to get some kind of justice for what happened to Tom. I could see Ryu, at that point, graciously stepping aside and saying 'I understand how important this fight is to you. I will not stand in your way.'

Or maybe Ryu went after Gouki/Akuma, leaving Alex to pursue his destiny and face Gill? Let's face it, Ryu probably thinks it's his responsibility to put a stop to Gouki/Akuma before he hurts anyone else. What else would any self respecting heroic character with deep ties to the villain think?

The point is that these storyline contrivances play HEAVILY into fighting game continuity. Over in the 'main swap' thread, I didn't (and still don't) concede anything to Kyo, Rugal or anybody else. Terry, in an opinion that is based on extensive exposure to the source material and spinoffs and heavy research, is the strongest hero in the SNK world. But Kyo makes it to Orochi in the end. How is that possible if Terry's the strongest, the naysayers ask?

Here's how it's possible. Storyline contrivances are concieved and applied in order to elevate the main character of the STORY IN QUESTION to the required dramatic positioning.

I'm not saying Kyo is weak. I'm not saying Alex is weak. Kyo would give Terry a great fight. Alex would give Ryu a great fight. But the new guys, in a straight up one on one, would lose to the more established heroes.

Alex is the main character of SFIII (all incarnations). He is NOT the main character of the SF universe.

Ask yourselves this question as well. Does a fighting game HAVE to only have one story contained in it? I believe Fatal Fury 3, for example, has AT LEAST four stories in it; Terry's battle to keep the scrolls out of the hands of the Jin brothers, which is the most important one. Then there's Hon Fu's pursuit of Ryuji Yamazaki. There's the whole thing about Franco trying to find his son. And what about Geese? He's more of a threat than the Jin brothers in the overall SNK picture, but he's not the last boss.

According to the logic I've been seeing, one would assume that at that point in SNK continuity, the Jin Brothers and Yamazaki are stronger than Geese because they come after him in the game.

To that type of logic I say bunk, tripe and swill .

Terry fought Geese, who ALSO happened to be trying to get the Jin scrolls at the time. Their paths crossed due to their personal quests necessitating the meeting, but defeating Geese just wasn't the end of the Jin scroll story. There was more to do, and for that reason Terry moved beyond the fight with Geese (which didn't end with a KO, but rather with Geese Tower's pinnacle erupting in flames) and on to Yamazaki, and if you do well enough the Jin brothers.

Being the main character in a game or a series of games doesn't NECESSITATE any character's position in the univerasl heirarchy.

I hope this post is taken only as my attempt to add a new perspective to the debating.

Oh, and Terry's still the strongest SNK hero. That's the only one I'll pick .

Actually, If Alex was regarded as an important character, Then we would have to wait till CvS2. In there we would know how worthy Alex is and did he defeat Ryu or not.The same goes for Street Fighter 4 (If it is ever made)... If we see Alex back.. then this proves that Alex is a worthy fighter. And now... here are my power rankings for SNK & Capcom (in no particular order)

SNK:
Orochi
Goenitz
Iori
Kyo
Chizuru
Amakusa
Kagami
Setsuna
Terry Bogard
K'

Capcom:
Ryu
M.Bison
Gill
Alex
Batsu
Dimirti Maximoff
Pyron
Jedah
Hyo Imwano

Hideo, break's over! Time for teaching!

D'OH! I gotta run.. see you all soon. Hopefully.

to APATHY WIND:I enjoyed your logic but as vulcans say,"your logic is flawed".Here is another solid reason why ken can beat alex easily.Check out alex's special and super arts.Notice something?No ki/chi.About the only thing that might possibly be considered ki is his flash chops.But even that is miniscule energy projection compared to a simple lil hadoken from ken.Alex is a brute with alot of strength.But thats it.Even franco bash has ki.Ken can sommun a blue globe of energy(hadoken),ignite his hand in fire(fierce dragon punch),and two of his supers are super versions of this fierce dragon punch with even more ki fire on his hands.It was a bad idea for capcom to make alex the main charecter of SFIII.He is not worthy.He would get slaughtered by gill.What the hell was capcom thinking by making a wrestler the main charecter?

to TAISO:you make very good points.About paragraph four;I think in that scenario ryu would realize that alex is too green and would not stand a chance against gill.Alex would contest that and a fight would ensue.Ryu would have to put down the young warrior to save his life.Ryu would be saving alex'a life by stopping him from fighting gill.About paragraph eight:Kyo's team defeated terry's team in the kof 94 finals.Kyo proved his superiority in the snk universe that day.The torch was passed to kyo,the strongest wolf.About paragraph six:tp sum it up"if kyo was in terry's comic book terry would win but if terry was in kyo comic book kyo would win".Did I interpret it correctly?

Aaaaahhhh......thats why I dislike the war room;you cant have logical discussions like this......fun fun fun

Originally posted by Taiso:
<STRONG>
Characters don't HAVE to fight certain other characters to get to the final boss. Not every one of these games uses a tournament for its setting. Not every competition that begins as a fighting tournament ends under the same auspices. I'd be willing to bet that the Capcom writers would say Ryu never fought Alex due to circumstances in the storyline dictating plot twists that insured the two never fought. What those plot twists could is purely speculation.

As I said in another thread with similar subject matter, it's entirely possible that Ryu and Ken could have beaten the crap out of each other so bad when they fought that neither one could continue on, thus clearing the way for Alex.

Or maybe Ryu fought Alex and during the course of the battle the former learned the latter had a burning desire to fight Gill to get some kind of justice for what happened to Tom. I could see Ryu, at that point, graciously stepping aside and saying 'I understand how important this fight is to you. I will not stand in your way.'

Or maybe Ryu went after Gouki/Akuma, leaving Alex to pursue his destiny and face Gill? Let's face it, Ryu probably thinks it's his responsibility to put a stop to Gouki/Akuma before he hurts anyone else. What else would any self respecting heroic character with deep ties to the villain think?

).</STRONG>

Click to expand...

Ah, but the main reason I say Ken would beat Alex is in Alexs third strike ending, where Ryu beats Alex. Ken beat Ryu in Alpha's 1 and 2, but.... Ryu was never in a right state of mind in those games when they fought so I would say Ryu and Ken are evenly balenced. Now, if Ryu could beat Alex in his ending, surely Ken could beat him too, if the two are considered equal? Just my thoughts.....

Hidden Warrior and Rain! Nice to talk to you again .

I'll take your comments one person at a time.

Hidden Warrior:

>>you make very good points.About paragraph four;I think in that scenario ryu would realize that alex is too green and would not stand a chance against gill.Alex would contest that and a fight would ensue.Ryu would have to put down the young warrior to save his life.Ryu would be saving alex'a life by stopping him from fighting gill.<<

Ryu isn't the type of person that's going to look at Alex as someone in need of saving. Now SEAN, on the other hand, Ryu would make the effort to save. Alex is a big boy and made his choice. Ryu would respect that, I think.

>>About paragraph eight:Kyo's team defeated terry's team in the kof 94 finals.Kyo proved his superiority in the snk universe that day.The torch was passed to kyo,the strongest wolf.About paragraph six:tp sum it up"if kyo was in terry's comic book terry would win but if terry was in kyo comic book kyo would win".Did I interpret it correctly?<<

I'm not going to argue this point any further. I've exhausted myself on it in the 'main character swap' thread in the CVS forum, and my prior post in THIS thread all the more solidifies my viewpoint in my mind. Please, respectfully, read it and agree or disagree, but I'm done debating it.

As far as the specifics of paragraph 6 go, it's application to KOF would be that teams Mexico and Italy were 'moved out of' team Japan's way via the necessary plot twists, thus clearing Kyo to face Rugal in '94 and kick off the Orochi storyline.

Rain:

>>Ah, but the main reason I say Ken would beat Alex is in Alexs third strike ending, where Ryu beats Alex. Ken beat Ryu in Alpha's 1 and 2, but.... Ryu was never in a right state of mind in those games when they fought so I would say Ryu and Ken are evenly balenced. Now, if Ryu could beat Alex in his ending, surely Ken could beat him too, if the two are considered equal? Just my thoughts.....<<

I never said that Ken COULDN'T beat Alex. That's not anywhere in my comments (I don't think...).

The sole purpose of my points was to defend the continuity of the SF universe WITHOUT falling into the conventional traps of character priority rationalizing. It is these 'traps' that have people saying things like 'Alex is stronger than this guy or that guy' simply on the basis of being the main character of the game.

Which is not necessarily the best way to look at these things.

Allow me to quote myself, if you will:

>>Alex is the main character of SFIII (all incarnations). He is NOT the main character of the SF universe.<<

If that statement doesn't identify Alex's place in the SF world, nothing will. SFIII is Alex's story. Therefore, plot twists will put Alex in the final battle with Gill without sacrificing Ryu's spot as the strongest SF universe hero. Let me give one example of how this could happen, and yes I'm talking SFIII: 3rd Strike:

Characters fight. A lot of violence ensues. People get hurt. Alex eventually meets Ryu and loses to him. Ryu gives him a few polite pointers and the two go their separate ways. Later, through the progression of the story, Alex encounters Gill and armed with Ryu's advice proceeds to defeat the speedo clad freak in what I'm sure is an intense and dramatic battle.

I'm not saying that's how it happened. What I'm saying is that when the writers are thinking up the stories, they think of them in terms like these that secure the continuity while still allowing the newer characters to shine in a spotlight all their own. Ryu is a supporting character in the story that is told in SFIII. A powerful one, but a supporting one nonetheless.

Fans have a tendency to think like this:

Ryu's the strongest character, so he obviously defeats Alex and earns the right to fight Gill, shutting Alex off forever from his chance at revenge.

That's poor logic because it doesn't take into account the fact that the story MIGHT have a slightly more complex scope than that. The scenario I laid out above is more in line with how the writers of fighting game continuities think.

Now, as far as Ken beating Alex goes...I buy that.

I wouldn't contest it.

I think that Ken and Ryu are presented as equals much in the same way that Robert and Ryo are presented as equals in AOF. That being the case, logically you'd assume that if fighting at their best or when the chips are down they'll find a way to win. Under those terms, Alex would probably lose to Ken if both men were on their 'A' games that day.

This is where it's easy to get lost in that conventional thought.

Since Ken can beat Alex he can beat Gill.

I wonder what Capcom's writers would say about that .

Now THIS is what I had in mind when I started this topic! Lots of fun discussion.

Anyway;

Hidden Warrior - I don't think chi is the determining factor in a fighters overall ability. Having fireballs and flaming attacks can be useful sure, but they are not required. Alex just draws (mainly) from a different source of power. And all fighters in SF games have some chi - each super art involves storing up your power and unleashing it in a flash of energy.

Now, regarding the Alex/Ken thing - I never said Ken couldn't beat Alex. Anyone on that list could beat anyone else at anytime. People have also have been stating that Ryu would defeat Alex. I also agree with that. Thats why Ryu is ranked significantly higher than Alex (#4 versus #9). Alex's inclusion in the ranks of main characters establishes his strength, so he should be somewhere on a list like this - with his inexperience preferably near the bottom. He's not better than Ryu, or now the strongest in the SF universe. He's an up in coming power. But I'm comparing him to Ken not Ryu. Personally I don't think Ken has kept up with Ryu as well as everyone else does. Just because they are rivals doesn't mean they have to be equals. To use a anime reference, DBZ's Vegeta is rival to Goku even though Goku is consistently stronger than he is. Vegeta's stills strong and a good rival but they're not equal. That's kind of how I see Ryu and Ken. That's why I ranked Ken lower in the order.

Taiso - I'm not trying to draw you into another debate or anything. I know you've said your peace and that's cool. But according to your storyline theory the hero (Alex for SF3) has sufficient strength to defeat his enemy (who is going to be significantly strong himself). So that hero has to be as a character with a high power. Not as high as the true main character (Ryu) and maybe not even (for the sake of argument) as high as that characters rival (Ken) but he still must be recognized as a power. So Alex should have a space on such a list. You're right that being the main character doesn't make that person the strongest fighter - but it does establish them as a potential candidate.

I don't know that storyline contrivances would really apply to Ken. He's a leading character in the SF universe but not a major character (in that no major plot aspects are really driven by him). It could be said that he drives the plot in that he's Ryu's rival, but Ryu has alot of rivals (ie. Gouki, Sagat) so that role can easily be reassigned. So while story contrivances might allow Ryu, Terry, Kyo, or Ryo to save face versus the new kids it doesn't necessarily apply to the lesser characters in the universe.

It's a shame Capcom doesn't have more continuity in it's storylines. As much as I dislike Tekken, that is one thing it has over SF games. Oh well, at least the open ended storyline allows room for discussions like this

Apathy Wind:

It's the ol 'cut and paste' method of discussion again .

>>I'm not trying to draw you into another debate or anything. I know you've said your peace and that's cool.<<

I understand, Apathy. I know exactly where you're coming from.

As far as Terry Bogard being the strongest is concerned, I've said all I can. At this point, any further discussion about the subject would be sheer stubborn bullheadedness on anybody's part (mine, yours, Hidden Warrior's, etc.). I think now, people are just going to have to make their own minds up based on the evidence presented both in the 'main character swap' thread and in this one and be happy with their decision.

But this is a whole new topic of conversation. And while I won't post who I think are the top ten Capcom and SNK fighters (I just don't have the energy to defend those decisions right now), I'll at least get involved in an advisory manner. This is fun to talk about.

>>But according to your storyline theory the hero (Alex for SF3) has sufficient strength to defeat his enemy (who is going to be significantly strong himself). So that hero has to be as a character with a high power. Not as high as the true main character (Ryu) and maybe not even (for the sake of argument) as high as that characters rival (Ken) but he still must be recognized as a power. So Alex should have a space on such a list. You're right that being the main character doesn't make that person the strongest fighter - but it does establish them as a potential candidate.<<

Oh, absolutely. I think Alex would give Ryu some serious injuries he would have to nurse for a while. I'd put Alex in the top ten Capcom characters. Definitely. I don't recall where I said otherwise, come to think of it .

In the end, I'd probably rate him higher than Ken simply because he beat Gill, whereas Ken never beat any boss in any game's continuity. But since we're talking about Mr. Masters, I see Ken as Ryu's equal in terms of raw ability and talent, so I could see Ken beating Alex in a regular fight. But, as with Terry and Ryu, I see Alex being a superior fighter to Ken when something beyond wins and losses is at stake.

Gill plans to take over the world. Alex HAS to stop him. It's that simple. Alex makes the metamorphosis from character seeking vengeance to bonafide hero somewhere in SFIII's story. That extra strength isn't something that would come out of Alex in a fight against Ken, but against a true villainous threat the blonde grappler would tap every last reserve he had.

That metamorposis, maybe even in the middle of a battle (that's how I see Terry beating Krauser in RBS), is something only the strongest characters are ever portrayed as possessing. It's something supporting characters like Ken, or even Andy Bogard, simply do not have.

>>I don't know that storyline contrivances would really apply to Ken. He's a leading character in the SF universe but not a major character (in that no major plot aspects are really driven by him). It could be said that he drives the plot in that he's Ryu's rival, but Ryu has alot of rivals (ie. Gouki, Sagat) so that role can easily be reassigned.<<

I see where you're coming from. Ken doesn't really impact the storyline the same way that Ryu or Alex do. And you're probably right in terms of storytelling dramatics and dynamics. But I believe that Ken's place in the framework of the SF universe is as Ryu's equal because they've grown together with that aspect of 'equality' as a part of their mutual backgrounds.

Does that make any sense:P?

>>So while story contrivances might allow Ryu, Terry, Kyo, or Ryo to save face versus the new kids it doesn't necessarily apply to the lesser characters in the universe.<<

Well, I'd remove Kyo from that equation. In my mind he'll ALWAYS be a 'new kid' .

But otherwise, yeah. Sure. I'll buy that .

Taiso - Works for me. I see we're on the same page here . Any of the fighters in the ranking could defeat any of the others in the right circumstances (depending on motivations, situation etc.). The rankings are not set in stone - they just give an overall idea of who the major powers are in the universes.

I'm glad we worked that out