SNK main character swap for CvS2

[Apathy Wind]

I guess I'll start things off here with a CvS topic:

As I understand it, Terry is replacing Kyo as SNK's main character in CvS2. And I also believe that Ryu is being maintained as Capcoms main character. Now I kind of like Terry coming out over Kyo (Terry's been my character since FF1) but I'm kinda curious about the reason for the 'promotion'. I could see it if Capcom was swapping their own main character as well (to like Alex, Demitri, or Batsu) but as is, it just strikes me as kind of odd. The only thing I can think of is that Terry pairs off better with Geese (as a boss) than Kyo does. Of course, that theory's kind of shot down since Ryu isn't the first person I'd pair off with M. Bison (I could see Ryu/Sagat or Ryu/Gouki but Bison would pair better with Chunli, Rose, or Guile). Anybody have any theories of their own?

[Rade]

I feel that Terry (oldschool) better embodies the whole SNK spirit that Kyo could ever hope to. Terry is more instantly recognizable.

BTW: What is up with the US cover of CvsSNK? It used Street Fighter Alpha 3 art and a bad image of Terry. Very Ugly. THe jap cover (also seen on the reverse of the US caover) is leagues better.

Capcom has had Ryu as a kind of mascot for a while now and he, like Terry, is the spirit of a Capcom fighter. Besides, who would you replace Ryu with? Guile? Hardly.

[Gojira]

Yeah, that cover is ugly, using Wild Ambition Terry art of all things... not that WA art is bad, it's just... weird-lookin. There are like 3 images made specifically for the cover, was Capcom US just unable to figure that out or what?

And Terry as a main character is fine with me. He's got that one NeoGeo hat after all, doesn't he? Maybe Captain Commando should be Capcom's main character... LOL

[This message has been edited by Gojira (edited April 14, 2001).]

[samuraiX]

I agree that Terry should be SNK's lead character. And I am happy to see Ryu stay where he is at.

[KiddragoN7676]

i dunno for me SNK main persons have always been Terry,Andy and joe....i think in the KOF Series Kyo & Iori have always taken centre stage..... the 1st CvsS was more like street fighter vs KOF so maybe thats why kyo was the main guy if the 2nd is gonna be true Capcom vs snk then its right that terry should be the main character against Ryu!!

Laterz!!!

They should Put Rick in http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif

edit:lol u were right i typed the thing i did'nt understand it lol!!! a bit clear now!!

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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neodragon/rickr2.gif


[This message has been edited by KiddragoN7676 (edited April 14, 2001).]

[Rade]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by KiddragoN7676:
i dunno for me SNK main person/s have always been Terry,Andy and joe i think in the KOF Series Kyo & Iori take centre stage as for me the 1st CvsS was more like street fighter vs KOF so maybe thats why kyo was the main guy if the 2nd is gonna be true Capcom vs snk i think terry should be the main character against Ryu!!

Laterz!!!

They should Put Rick in http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif



Try using some punctuation.

[Gunsmith]

Don't pick on people for their typing.

[Rade]

I can't understand a word he is saying. Sorry.

[Rade]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rade Kuruc:
I can't understand a word he is saying. Sorry.

And I think it was his grammar that I was making fun of, not his typing but if you wanted to be technical, I guess you are right.

Are you the moderator I am supposed to be afraid of?



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http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/h/071/58/30715870.jpg

Late on the whole Neo Geo thing.

[Whip's Disciple]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rade Kuruc:
And I think it was his grammar that I was making fun of, not his typing but if you wanted to be technical, I guess you are right.

Are you the moderator I am supposed to be afraid of?




Don't be paranoid.

This isn't some slaughterhouse.

[Rade]

Well it has the same atmosphere. If it walks like a duck...

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http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/h/071/58/30715870.jpg

Late on the whole Neo Geo thing.

[Whip's Disciple]

Paranoia is not created from atmostphere. It comes from within more often than not.

Then again, if you want the gaming forum back that badly, I don't see why it was really given to us in the first place.

[Rade]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Whip's Disciple:
Paranoia is not created from atmostphere. It comes from within more often than not.

Then again, if you want the gaming forum back that badly, I don't see why it was really given to us in the first place.

I was refering to the atmosphere of a slaughterhouse, not that of paranoia. Maybe I was not clear. It is also possible that you are not clear.

[Whip's Disciple]

Either way....

This doesn't have anthing to do with thread so I'll stop.

[Rade]

So...you only stop replying when you are proven wrong and have no comeback. I like that.

Man, am I ever stirring the excrement today. Not as hardily as some but more than my usual.

[Whip's Disciple]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rade Kuruc:
So...you only stop replying when you are proven wrong and have no comeback. I like that.

Man, am I ever stirring the excrement today. Not as hardily as some but more than my usual.

Ummmm no, were equally vague or else I would have never made the misconception. Either way there's nothing more to say, well at least nothing which shouldn't be taken to the war forum.

[This message has been edited by Whip's Disciple (edited April 14, 2001).]

[Rade]

I don't post in the war room.

And how would anything have a paranoid atmosphere? You said it yourself. I think it was very clear that I was referencing slaughterhouse.

This all reminds me of slaughterhouse five...great book.

[This message has been edited by Rade Kuruc (edited April 14, 2001).]

[YeldellGW]

Poor Kyo. He's no longer SNK's main man in 2 games now. Don't worry Kusanagi, I won't abandon ya. LOL! Seriously, I'm glad Terry's taking his proper spot; as so many will put it. Really didn't bother me who was paired with Ryu in the 1st place since I don't care much for him anyway. At least now Kyo and Iori's rivalry can take center stage as far as I'm concern. Though I wonder who will face Kyo from the Capcom side now?

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"Don't be scared! I'll only cut off one of your heads! Guess!"

[This message has been edited by YeldellGW (edited April 14, 2001).]

[Taiso]

Terry always should have been SNK's main representative in this series. As lame as the cover art for the domestic CvS is, I was happy to see it featured Terry and Ryu, as it should be. Glad to see Capcom of Japan is getting it right with the presentation this time http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.



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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[Rugal 3:16]

Terry vs Ryu

Geese vs Bison

seems right

Kyo vs Geese just doesn't seem rught

AT LEAST RYU VS BISON has a bit of connection (as Bison seeks Ryu) But Geese doesn't seek Kyo

so if Kyo is the main dude, Rugal should be the main Baddie (KOF structure)

If Geese is the Baddie TERRY should be the hero (FF)

One can't use an argument that states Kyo is better suited for Ryu AND THEN use the same argument to support the Bison-Geese pairing (it's totally based on Bias) and vice versa, But since I like Terry over Rugal, I'd prefer Terry-Geese over Kyo-Rugal anyday.

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I'm goin up I'm comin' in.. pull em' down and let's ***********IN

[firebreed]

Whip, Orochi Leona and the Orochi team

Hi, Rugal 3:16 ! http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by firebreed (edited April 17, 2001).]

[fomaman]

where did it say that terry is gonna' be SNK hero #1 in CVS2? I personally think it's more appropriate, i just wanna' know where the info is coming from.

[Apathy Wind]

Fomaman - I don't remember exactly where I saw the article on that (it was a while ago). I'm pretty sure it was on www.videogames.com (http://www.videogames.com) coverage of the CvS2 TGS showing.

Rugal 3:16 - You're right about Kyo/Rugal being the more logical combo. That was kinda why I was surprised to see Geese the boss in CvS. I'm pleased Terry will be taking center stage for SNK, but I have to wonder if Capcom will leave Geese and M. Bison as bosses.

[Black_Hayato]

I think Kyosuke will pair off against Kyo!

They're both students that fight. They'd better tone Kyosuke down.

[Rugal 3:16]

Apathy.. well I DID figure out that Popularity is what made the Kyo/Geese good/Bad main men, But They seem Urghhh when paired themselves, they have no chemistry

Kyo: Geese isn't that the bad guy that was beaten by the guy I beat (Terry) in 94'

Geese: I don't give a rats ass about Kyo I want Terry.

But CHECK THIS OUT

One of the reasons I heard that Kyo is giving a MASSIVELY not that deserved push by SNK is..

Terry is an American

and SNK wouldn't let an american be their main man.. (talk about racism)

Well I can't imagine Kyo as a japanese either (not that I'm having anything against what Japs really look like as compared to their art) But I Just see Kyo's image (long Hair, pretty boy face) as an upteen Backstreet Boy rather than a young Bad ass. anyway Kyo's Push IMO is kinda undeserved.

like in wrestling we have Goldberg and just because he looked like something WCW pushed him but many (including me) were not that impressed, so SNK created Kyo and see what they view of this main character so they gave him a character background (Kusanagi's saga ETC.) a rival (iori) and makes him SNK's main man, while they didn't see what Terry has been to SNK long before Kyo was ever in a drawing board (because Terry's an American) But as CvS implies (at least in our country or in the casual gamers market)

Casual Gamer: Kyo? who's Kyo I thought Terry was SNK's Ryu

Casual Gamer 2: You mean aftr Terry beat Geese and Krauser and Mars (supposedly) he'll just be beaten by a Spunky Teenager (kyo)

Hardcore Gamer: wait a second Kyo has character development, Kyo is the new main man so HE'S SUPPOSED to beat the old Bum (Terry) plus he has more Developed Charac--

someone who knows about the wheeling and dealing: More developed character you say? THAT's BECUASE OF THE PUSH SNK GIVES HIM it's like their deliberately tring to say.. "Why settle for a bummy old American who has a lame "revenge" backround when you could dig your roots for a JAPANESE dude with cool hair a bad attitude and a "well (pushed-motivated) developed" character COME ON PEOPLE WE DEMAND YOU TO RECOGNIZE KYO,.... HE even has a Rival"


at least I appreciate what they have done to GEESE as SNK retains him as their main man, Now Unlike all of you I Like Rugal better than Geese (but that's because of my personal tastes) Geese is better because SNK makes him to be better and IMO without Bias THAT IS A WISE decision to keep the old bad guy as the main bad dude (not necessarily the strongest but the Best nonethelss) But Hey Geese deserves the spot AS MUCH in proportion to how Terry deserves his shot, contrary to what I have written I don't hate Kyo I also Like the dude very much, But seeing him as a main character is just too much IMO, I'm sure Kyo fans here wouldn't mind whatever Kyo's status is as long as they like the character.

as long as Kyo isn't paired with someone MILES AWAY from his status as say how Ryo was paired with Balrog.

[This message has been edited by Rugal 3:16 (edited April 17, 2001).]

[Krusader]

I still think Rugal should've been the boss...

Akuma should've been paired with Omega Rugal or Orochi too. It doesn't seem right only having Akuma by himself unpaired.

[ShinYagami]

R3:16 made his way here...welcome there, fellow old wolf. Ms. Bolton will be happy to see you're here.

As far as Terry replacing Kyo, it makes sense. Wonder what else they have in store...

[ShinYagami]

In terms of rivalries, I would have liked to have seen Bison paired up with Rugal as well..but their popularity preceded them.

[Apathy Wind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rugal 3:16:
But CHECK THIS OUT

One of the reasons I heard that Kyo is giving a MASSIVELY not that deserved push by SNK is..

Terry is an American

and SNK wouldn't let an american be their main man.. (talk about racism)

That's quite interesting. If it's true I wonder if Aruze handling KoF01 will lead to Kim stepping up as the new SNK main man.

[Rugal 3:16]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krusader:
I still think Rugal should've been the boss...

Akuma should've been paired with Omega Rugal or Orochi too. It doesn't seem right only having Akuma by himself unpaired.

Well Rugal WILL outrank Geese If they appeared together In a KOF game since that's Rugal's territory as much in proportion as how Kyo outranks Terry Bogard, whereas in KOF Geese is not a boss (he even has a team) so you see how KOF heirarchy sums things up.. CvS is a crossover so it's more bent on Popularity than anything else a KOF can humbly influence therefore Geese outrank Rugal JUST AS HE WOULD OUTRANK every other boss (goenitz, mr. big, krauser) etc.

BTW no I would not want a Geese-Sagat pairing becauyse THAT WOULD PISS geese fans. sure Sagat looks cool and all (but he's a sub-boss) and that's the drift.

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I'm goin up I'm comin' in.. pull em' down and let's ***********IN

[Taiso]

I don't think Kim will become the main man or even a major player. The series belongs to K' now, and that's that. I'm a Terry Bogard fan before anything else, but even Terry is a supporting character in K's story.

But as for SNK's 'main man' overall, I think it's safe to say that it's Terry. He's always enjoyed a privileged spot at the top, has been in more SNK games than any other character and is consistently at the forefront of every game he's in. I don't think SNK suffers from the same type of Japanese 'nationalism' that other Japanese companies seem to have. They made Terry, an American, the main character in what was their marquee series until KOF came along, FF.

Geese is the ultimate bad guy in the SNK universe. Terry is his arch enemy. If Geese is the top bad guy, Terry is the top good guy. Nobody, not even the Orochi clan, has impacted SNK's universe as much as Geese Howard. Even in Capcom VS. SNK, the bad guys are Bison and GEESE. Not Rugal, not Krauser, not Yamazaki or the Jin brothers or Kain, Mr. Big, Mr. Karate, Wyler, Orochi, Goenitz, Krizalid, Zero or anybody else that I may have missed.

It was Geese.

And only one man, continuity wise, has what it takes to beat him.

Terry Bogard.

And so, Terry is the main man.

Whether Kyo fans like it or not http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.



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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[Kukacherrn]

Terry Bogard is the embodiment(Heck! I don't even know if that's a word in English) of SNK!

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"Man! If you did it and lived then you probably did it right!"
"All good things succumb to those who wait"

[Rugal 3:16]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:
I don't think Kim will become the main man or even a major player. The series belongs to K' now, and that's that. I'm a Terry Bogard fan before anything else, but even Terry is a supporting character in K's story.

But as for SNK's 'main man' overall, I think it's safe to say that it's Terry. He's always enjoyed a privileged spot at the top, has been in more SNK games than any other character and is consistently at the forefront of every game he's in. I don't think SNK suffers from the same type of Japanese 'nationalism' that other Japanese companies seem to have. They made Terry, an American, the main character in what was their marquee series until KOF came along, FF.

Geese is the ultimate bad guy in the SNK universe. Terry is his arch enemy. If Geese is the top bad guy, Terry is the top good guy. Nobody, not even the Orochi clan, has impacted SNK's universe as much as Geese Howard. Even in Capcom VS. SNK, the bad guys are Bison and GEESE. Not Rugal, not Krauser, not Yamazaki or the Jin brothers or Kain, Mr. Big, Mr. Karate, Wyler, Orochi, Goenitz, Krizalid, Zero or anybody else that I may have missed.

It was Geese.

And only one man, continuity wise, has what it takes to beat him.

Terry Bogard.

And so, Terry is the main man.

Whether Kyo fans like it or not http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.



I totally agree even if KOF encompasses Fatal Fury the icons that started there would be the ones that shine the brightest.

[ryu]

I still think Kyo should have been the main character.

[firebreed]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ryu:
I still think Kyo should have been the main character.

I think, Kyo should be replaced with someone else or someone new. Don't we have enough of Kyo and/or Iori already? Unless both of them have some sort of new move(s) or costume, or a motive to be in that particular game.


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firebreed.com (http://www.firebreed.com)

[Tekyo]

Terry is and always should be The Main Man of Snk. I agree that Terry must be recover his place like the main man.

[D`Cloud]

well, It's ok to me for kyo to be replaced. besides, kyo sucks in CVS bigtime. heheh! his 'finalshowdown' sucks too. anyway... i dont want to argue on who's stronger. but the swapping makes a bit of sense too...
Since cvs2 probably wont have endings at all, I'd want the ff pairing happen in cvs2
Terry - Ryu
Bison - Geese
Ken - Kyo
Sean - Shingo
K' - Alex
yun & yang - donghwan & jaehoon
Krauser - sagat ( hi-lo battle! LOL!)
leona - guile
chang - zangief (..)
billy kane - dhalsim
big bear - honda
Ryo - ??

[shin-kyo]

"I think, Kyo should be replaced with someone else or someone new. Don't we have enough of Kyo and/or Iori already? Unless both of them have some sort of new move(s) or costume, or a motive to be in that particular game."

Well if they didn't rape kyo he'd be alot different than he is now (2k kyo). So its fair to have Ken, Ryu, Akuma, and Dan and not Kyo/Iori who are the only 'shoto like' characters, with kyo being very different. I think kyo should get his new costume, and whats iori without kyo? it wouldn't make sense otherwise.. like a ken without a ryu (and akuma, dan, sakura .... .. ... etc)

I think that Kyo was the SNK rep becoz he's more popular than Terry, not in the US, but overall worldwide he is because the KOF series was/is/willbe SNK's most popular franchise. IMO Terry wasn't created to be Ryu's rival, Kyo was.. weither your looking at the original frontliners or not.

remember its not always the original characters that represent the company, its the most famous
like Capcom.. and Captain Commando

[Rain]

Ryu and Kyo look alike thats for sure, and they play alike... sometimes... anyway, Ryu and Terry fight totally differently, and have the same goal, to fight all the time and to enjoy the fight. If i'm not mistaken thats the reason Krauser beat Terry in RBFFS, Krauser had learned to enjoy the fight as much as Terry, this caught Terry by surprise, and he lost. It was also the reason why Geese lost. He didn't care about the fight, he just cared about being the strongest which led to his death. Ken and Kyo go together well too though, both don't take fighting 100% seriously 100% of the time and they have lives outside of fighting (Yuki and Eliza) whereas Ryu and Terry both just concentrate on the fight, and the fight alone.

[shin-kyo]

all kyo and ryu share in common is an 'uppercut' like anti-air move. If anything Kyo shares more traits with Terry than Ryu. Kyo's moves have some similarities to Terry's:
rising tackle = oniyaki,
overhead looking kick = kyo's red kick,
bare knuckle = kyo's rush grab,
power wave = kyo's original fireball,
power geyser = serpent wave,
buster wolf = final showdown..
Seems to me that SNK looked towards terry when making the hero of kof.
Heck, Kyo maybe a lazy ass but fighting is supposedly the only thing Kyo takes seriously. Having more interests doesn't make him any less of a fighter, it just shows more depth into his character. I think Ryu is that 'true warrior' thing is bs because capcom didn't care (or wasn't important at the time) to give us that info. How does he make a living.. much less get his food? hadokens a possum than eats it raw? (cuz obviously he doesn't fight for money) What about Terry and Blue Mary.. you forgot that.. (not to mention Rock)

i don't really care about Kyo having to have top spot.. but like any good fan, they jump in to support their favorites. http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

sure terry can ryu are the main 2 in CvS2, but i wish Capcom US had the decency to let kyo be the star in CvS1, i personally liked the cover for the import alot..

http://209.245.246.144/Merchant/chi/capcom_snk_store.jpg

[This message has been edited by shin-kyo (edited April 24, 2001).]

[Rain]

Remember that Terry and Blue Mary have yet to properly get together.... all Blue Mary does is flirt with him and Terry enjoys the attention. Rock is different, Terry is training him to be a fighter and to erase his own mistakes (killing Geese) He probably wouldn't even have a protege if not for that.. I think that Ryu does fight for money, but only enough to live on... he has no real reason to have a load of money. I also think that Snk wanted Terry to be the main star of Kof as well.... In Kof 94 the cursor starts on Terrys team but in all of the others its the Hero team it starts on.... Kinda lame reason i know, but it makes sense http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Taiso]

The KOF series was created to introduce Kyo and his storyline to the SNK canon. KOF '94 rode the coattails of FF and AOF to hardsell the concept of crossing over their two most popular franchises. But remember that in KOF '94's opening demo, Kyo is also prominently featured near the end of the sequence. After '94 however, KOF was all about Kyo, Iori and the Orochi storyline. And in '99, the focus shifted to Nests and K'.

Kyo and Iori are in the top echelon of SNK's characters, no doubt. Same with K'.

But Terry is SNK's main man. He's their strongest fighter and their most visible character. I personally think it's interesting that somebody who plays a supporting character in KOF is actually the strongest fighter there. It makes me think of interesting storyline possibilities to explain how Kyo and crew keep getting past the FF team and the AOF teams.

One manga I read had the FF and AOF teams beating each other so bad that they couldn't continue. I liked that. Takuma beat Andy...barely. Joe beat Robert...barely. Terry was getting the upper hand on Ryo and was about to polish him off with a Power Geyser. Ryo knew that he was about to lose, and rather than try to avoid the inevitable he unleashed a Haoh Sho Ko Ken at the same time in order to eliminate his opponent. The Power Geyser nailed Ryo but the Haoh Sho Ko Ken also pasted Terry good. Since both teams were pretty beaten up they were both deemed unable to continue in the tournament. Double KO.

Another manga I read had Terry basically whupping Iori's ass, and as he was about to seal the deal with a move (Burn Knuckle or Power Geyser, I can't remember which), he saw Geese -who he thought was dead- in the stands watching. That distracted Terry so much he didn't get the move off and Iori did the deed with a Riot Of Blood. Later in the story Terry fought Geese while Andy fought Billy, leaving the KOF crew to pursue their storyline without the FF influence to get in the way.

Manga is not canon, but as long as it's good I enjoy the attempt at an explanation. As long as it's handled properly, there can be good reasons for other fighters getting past the FF and AOF crews. The integrity of the existing characters isn't compromised and the new characters are allowed to shine as well.

Kyo, Iori and K' belong in the top five, however. No doubt.

Right behind Terry and Ryo http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.




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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[fomaman]

that was a cool ass "informative" post, man. where did you read/get this manga, it sounds pretty good and pretty well balanced in terms
of "who would kick who's ass".

[Taiso]

fomaman:

The manga where the two teams knock each other out is from Comic Gamest's KOF '94 Gaiden series. The second manga came from Comic Gamest's KOF-G series.

Unfortunately, Comic Gamest is no longer being printed. You can sometimes find the compilations on e-bay and at used manga websites. Check the anipike to find some used manga retailer sites.

Luckily for me, I only live forty five minutes away from an Asahiya bookstore, so getting this stuff as it comes out is not an issue http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.




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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[shin-kyo]

I recognize that he is their first fighting game mascot, but i think because he's the first he is immediately deemed the strongest. Though it could be argued that like many things the original isn't always the best. If you compare the storylines, Kyo would be stronger since he helped deafeat a god, and omega rugal (pretty much a combination of krauser and geese).. this obviously makes sense because with a new series you would want to 1 up the older series, to impress the gamers. In KOF Terry is weaker both in gameplay and storywise. I think thats why i like him so much, he broke the mold and IMO is the anti-thesis of shoto/fireball characters. I agree that they used FF, and AOF to start out the KOF series but it would be pretty boring to see the mascot of FF or AOF be the main character of KOF as well.. since they already have their own respective franchises.

[Tekyo]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shin-kyo:
I recognize that he is their first fighting game mascot, but i think because he's the first he is immediately deemed the strongest. Though it could be argued that like many things the original isn't always the best. If you compare the storylines, Kyo would be stronger since he helped deafeat a god, and omega rugal (pretty much a combination of krauser and geese).. this obviously makes sense because with a new series you would want to 1 up the older series, to impress the gamers. In KOF Terry is weaker both in gameplay and storywise. I think thats why i like him so much, he broke the mold and IMO is the anti-thesis of shoto/fireball characters. I agree that they used FF, and AOF to start out the KOF series but it would be pretty boring to see the mascot of FF or AOF be the main character of KOF as well.. since they already have their own respective franchises.

Terry is better and stronger than Kyo maybe not in the Kof series but The only reason is that Terry had his game yet. And if Terry appears in two games will be unfair don´t you know. but one thing is sure Terry is better than Kyo

[Taiso]

Shin-Kyo writes:

>>I recognize that he is their first fighting game mascot, but i think because he's the first he is immediately deemed the strongest. Though it could be argued that like many things the original isn't always the best.<<

Your logic is sound, but I don't feel it applies in this case.

Kyo's prominence in the KOF storyline is only partially about Kyo's actual power levels. Kyo and Iori don't have MORE power than Terry and Ryo. They just have the RIGHT TYPE of power to beat Orochi. The type of flames they wield were both necessary to do the job.

I'm firmly convinced that Terry, Andy and Joe could pummel the hell out of Orochi and do a much better job of actually outfighting him than Kyo and Iori could. Hell, I'd be willing to bet in a storyline context the DMs of the FF crew hit at least as hard as anything Kyo and Iori can dish out, but he'd just keep getting back up ad naseum, all the while absorbing the 'battle spirit' the fight was generating.

Now that I think of it, it's probably in Orochi's best interests to face the strongest possible fighters. Terry and crew would hammer away at Orochi, unable to destroy him because they don't have the right type of 'kryptonite', but the sheer energy of their 'battle spirit' would continue to build Orochi up all throughout the fight. Eventually he would become powerful enough that he would be able to destroy them.

>>If you compare the storylines, Kyo would be stronger since he helped deafeat a god, and omega rugal (pretty much a combination of krauser and geese)..<<

Omega Rugal was not a COMBINATION of Geese and Krauser. Perish the thought entirely. He was a CROSS between the two. Sure, he was supercharged with Orochi power, but so what? I'd say a ressurected Geese with the power of the Jin scrolls is a match for Omega Rugal any day, and Terry put him down all the same.

As for Orochi...

Kyo didn't beat Orochi by himself. He had Iori's help and I'm also sure Chizuru also had a hand in it. The combination of the three of them, and having the 'right kind of kryptonite', was what it took. In fact, the way the storyline portrayed it in '97, it seemed that victory was a hopeless prospect until they all attacked him with a combined effort. That tells me Kyo WASN'T good enough to do it on his own.

And besides, calling someone a 'god' doesn't mean they're indestructible. The concept of 'god' is so abstract and open to interpretation that no set of parameters could be fairly applied. Gods are being killed all the time in fictional and mythological contexts.

Kyo's power had something to do with it but not everything. After all, he had to be good enough to not get killed at some point in the fight. It was destiny. 1800 years prior, Kyo's and Iori's ancestors fought the same battle.

Kyo's beating Orochi had to do with being in the necessary place at the right time with the appropriate weapons and tools. I'm not saying he got lucky. What I am saying is that defeating Orochi was not Terry's destiny. It was Kyo's and Iori's. It was their story. That was the story being told in KOF. That's why they are the main characters of KOF.

Not because they are SNK's strongest. Because they aren't.

>>this obviously makes sense because with a new series you would want to 1 up the older series, to impress the gamers.<<

The gamers were impressed because of the quality of the game mechanics, graphics, character selection and storyline. I don't think anyone said 'KOF is better because now there's someone stronger than Terry'.

As for a new main character sharing a game with an older main character as validation of the torch being passed, I present to you Mark Of The Wolves.

Rock: new main character.

Terry: still the strongest.

Even though Rock beats Terry to move on to Kain in the official storyline, Terry wasn't fighting for the sake of the world or to avenge anyone's death. He was competing in a fighting tournament.

If Terry thought beating Rock would save peoples' lives, it would have turned out differently.

So 'new' doesn't necessarily mean 'stronger'.

>>In KOF Terry is weaker both in gameplay and storywise.<<

In terms of gameplay, I'll give you that Terry's not at the top of the heap in the KOF character rankings. But Terry doesn't rate at the top of the FF games, either. He's consistently NEAR the top, but there are other characters in the FF games that are more effective overall according to reliable ranking systems. One look at a neo geo freak or Gamest that rates the characters of an FF game proves that.

As for storywise, I'm sorry. I respect your opinion (I wouldn't be responding with all this text if I didn't), but your argument isn't convincing me. Terry is still the strongest fighter in SNK.

>>I think thats why i like him so much, he broke the mold and IMO is the anti-thesis of shoto/fireball characters. I agree that they used FF, and AOF to start out the KOF series but it would be pretty boring to see the mascot of FF or AOF be the main character of KOF as well..<<

I agree wholeheartedly there. KOF needed to be more than a 'dream match' every year. It needed a story, and it needed a brand new one that it could call its own. It accomplished that.

Sorry this one was so long, but my mind is involved right now http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.



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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[Rain]

Well, that cleared up a whole load of shit for me thats for sure http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif Okay random question: is there anyone in all of the SNK universe Terry couldn't beat?

[Taiso]

Rain:

I'll quote myself:

"Terry is still the strongest fighter in SNK."

http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif

Taiso
"Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles..."

[fomaman]

i'd like to second that notion. terry is the fucking shit, and anyone who's been following
SNK for as long as i have knows he's their Ryu, and he deserves to be. nuff said.

[Apathy Wind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:
Rain:

I'll quote myself:

"Terry is still the strongest fighter in SNK."



Whooaaa.... Now I am a big Terry fan (hell, I started this thread because I liked him being 'promoted' and wanted peoples thoughts on the whole thing) but I'm not so sure about your statement there. Strongest in the FF/AoF/KoF SNK universe - okay, I can buy that. Some people might argue others are stronger but I think they'd at least admit Terry would be up there amongst the best. But the entire SNK universe? I dunno. I have trouble matching any normal fighter to Samurai Shodown characters. It's not that I think the SS fighters are that much stronger than KoF characters - I'd say they're both highly skilled warriors. It's just that SS characters are highly skilled warriors with big swords.

Now I know some FF/AoF/KoF guys fight with weapons (Billy, Lee, Choi, Lawerence Blood) but those weapons are generally short range/blunt/or rarely used. Given the predominant use of bladed weapons (by characters with mastery of those weapons) in SS, I'd say the edge (no pun intended) would have to go to SS characters. And thats not to mention the magic aspect. Sure KoF characters have superhuman moves but they tend to be close range - more personal. Alot of SS characters have larger, more predominant special attacks (ie. Sogetsu's pillars). If you're talking comparison to characters in all of SNK games, I don't think any KoF etc character could hold up against SS characters (incidently, I have the same problem with SF characters versus Vampire characters).


[This message has been edited by Apathy Wind (edited April 25, 2001).]

[Rain]

I think that the Burn Knuckle could shatter a sword myself..... Then again you could say Geese has the power of a god since he got the scrolls, but he was beaten by Terry anyway (Someone mentioned that earlier) it seems that Terry is Snk's version of Jack the giant killer or something.... http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Tekyo]

Terry is the best you don´t know that

[Taiso]

Apathy Wind:

The advantages that weapons masters have against bare handed martial artists do not apply when dealing with fiction of this nature. Especially when the subject matter at hand is inspired from manga/anime type storytelling.

As for magic, that doesn't mean anything. They're essentially different special effects to achieve the same ends. And anyway, Sokaku Mochizuki in Fatal Fury is a potent spellcaster -really, he's an SS character in an FF game- and his special attacks achieve the same end as a Power Wave or a Hurricane Upper.


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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[This message has been edited by Taiso (edited April 26, 2001).]

[Rain]

One thing: Whats the official ending to RBFFS? I'm sure its not a dream match as the game has a story (Krauser returns, gives Terry a beating because like Terry, he doesn't fight to win, he fights to enjoy the feeling of fighting, unlike in FF2 where he was beaten because he just wanted to win) Did Terry beat Krauser in the end? I always thought that Terry couldn't beat Krauser in a fair fight.... seeing as Krauser was stronger than Geese. So who won Terry or Krauser?

[Taiso]

Terry won, of course! Shame on you!

Like I'd say anything else http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif!

Seriously...

Krauser's portrayed as a badass in RBS, but I think the game was mimicking some of the events of the FF2 anime -Terry being pulverized by Krauser and then seeking him out for a return match after growing stronger, specifically. I'm sure Terry found a way to be victorious in the end, as in the anime.

The opening demo of RBS is intended as the earlier stages of the fight, not the end. And the way I think that intro is supposed to be interpreted is that as Terry looks back up, battered and beaten, the angry stare of determination in his eyes shows that this fight is only just beginning...

Taiso
"Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles..."

[This message has been edited by Taiso (edited April 26, 2001).]

[Rain]

So what happened to Krauser? Has he just retired or something? I find it hard to believe that someone like him, has not appeared in the Kof series since '96. Did he kill himself after RBS (like in FF2), or has he retired? Would be cool to see him in Garou 2, though. If it ever came out http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Taiso]

Rain:

I'm sure he's still around. I can't see him killing himself because he lost a fight. I always thought that was a little extreme for him to do that in the anime.

Don't forget he showed up in RB2. In fact, if I remember correctly, the last boss in RB2 is a toss up between Geese or Krauser. I think.

Krauser in MOTW?

Let me paraphrase Stone Cold (pre-pussy heel era):

"If ya wanna see Wolfgang Krauser in Mark Of The Wolves 2, gimme a 'hell yeah'!"

"HELL YEAH!!!!!"

Awesome idea, Rain. Why didn't I think of it http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif?

Taiso
"Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles..."

[Tekyo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Taiso:
[B]Terry won, of course! Shame on you!

Like I'd say anything else http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif!

You´re right dude

[Tekyo]

Yeah Terry and Ryo are the best
The real top five Snk are:

1.- Terry Bogard
2.- Ryo Sakazaki
3.- Kyo Kusanagi
4.- Iori Yagami
5.- K' Dash

The are the true top five of Snk strongest characters

[Apathy Wind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:
Apathy Wind:

The advantages that weapons masters have against bare handed martial artists do not apply when dealing with fiction of this nature. Especially when the subject matter at hand is inspired from manga/anime type storytelling.

As for magic, that doesn't mean anything. They're essentially different special effects to achieve the same ends. And anyway, Sokaku Mochizuki in Fatal Fury is a potent spellcaster -really, he's an SS character in an FF game- and his special attacks achieve the same end as a Power Wave or a Hurricane Upper.




You're entitled to your opinion of course (and you make some good points), but I still gotta disagree - at least about the blades. Anime/manga fighters can defeat armed opponents but they are always lesser opponents (the main character being a power and the enemy either a peon who needs a weapon to threaten or a power who's just not as strong as the main character). And there is no indication that the KoF guys have that kind of edge on the SS'ers. The potential is just greater with the blade. If a SS fighter makes a mistake against a KoF fighter, they'll get a thumped REAL good. But if a Kof'er makes that same mistake against a SS guy, they're decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc.

As to the magic aspect, sadly I can't comment on Sokaku since the stupid arcades here stopped getting FF games in after FF Special http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/mad.gif So I'll haveta take your word on that one. What I was getting at is that the degree of the magic is significantly larger in SS games - more prevelant attacks, harder to avoid, more 'over the top'. To make an analogy, it's kinda like Morrigan's Finishing Shower EX from Vampire Savior. The attack is almost overpowering - long firing rate and it pins the opponent down; a SF super fireball couldn't compete with that kind of attack. Admittedly SS moves aren't THAT bad but you get the idea. (Incidently, if Sokaku was anything like that, he must have been overpowering gameplay wise). And that's not even getting on the topic of relative damage levels etc. in each of the respective universes http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/wink.gif

But this is a silly thing to argue about. Different opinions are good; chaos leads to innovation http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif Now where's that SS vs KoF game SNK?

[Taiso]

>>You're entitled to your opinion of course (and you make some good points), but I still gotta disagree - at least about the blades. Anime/manga fighters can defeat armed opponents but they are always lesser opponents (the main character being a power and the enemy either a peon who needs a weapon to threaten or a power who's just not as strong as the main character).<<

Nah, that's not true. I'm sure that we could both go back through our PILES of manga and find enough examples to back both of our theories.

The point is that manga/anime storytelling dynamics ignore realism in favor of drama. Ukyo's sword would be portrayed as an extra obstacle for Terry to overcome, but because Terry is SNK's strongest he'd be written to find a way to overcome the disadvantage.

>>And there is no indication that the KoF guys have that kind of edge on the SS'ers.<<

True. And vice versa.

>>The potential is just greater with the blade.<<

In real life, yes.

In martial arts manga/anime and video games inspiried by it, no.

>>If a SS fighter makes a mistake against a KoF fighter, they'll get a thumped REAL good. But if a Kof'er makes that same mistake against a SS guy, they're decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc.<<

Nah...that's not how it would go at all.

The weaponless character would end up with a bunch of slashes all over his body and be bleeding profusely from all of them. And because of the storytelling dynamics particular to martial arts manga/anime, the weaponless character would still be portrayed as having a chance at victory up to the very end. Based on who it is, he might even end up winning.

And only flunkies/thugs/lackeys/goons ever get "decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc". And during the climax of the story or at appropriately dramatic moments, some supporting characters http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.

>>As to the magic aspect, sadly I can't comment on Sokaku since the stupid arcades here stopped getting FF games in after FF Special So I'll haveta take your word on that one.<<

As well you should, mister "Ukyo's my avatar so I'm biased".

That was a joke http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.

Seriously, that's too bad. The series REALLY takes off with FF3.

>>What I was getting at is that the degree of the magic is significantly larger in SS games - more prevelant attacks, harder to avoid, more 'over the top'.<<

I think it's all basically the same. Geese's Thunder Break is just as potent in a storytelling context as any magical based attack the SS bosses throw around. Just because Geese doesn't have demons, floating rocks or giant orbs with eyeballs in his background doesn't mean his attacks are less powerful or over the top. In terms of the storytelling, they're all just special effects to convey the same type of thing.

>>To make an analogy, it's kinda like Morrigan's Finishing Shower EX from Vampire Savior. The attack is almost overpowering - long firing rate and it pins the opponent down; a SF super fireball couldn't compete with that kind of attack. Admittedly SS moves aren't THAT bad but you get the idea.<<

Debating the advantages of Morrigan's super maneuvers over other characters isn't the point. Those are the kinds of things that the main players would be written to overcome. That's why they're the main players. Because they find ways to succed when it counts, regardless of what they're up against. That's how these kinds of stories are executed.

If I was to look at the characters in a technical vein, rather than in the dramatic vein that they're presented when it comes to continuity, I'd pick Jill Valentine from MVC2 over all because she's got guns and ordinance at her disposal. All she's have to do is pull out the weapons and they'd start dropping like flies.

Go ahead, Morrigan. Do your special maneuver. Here's an acid grenade for you to feast on, bitch. Even if she blocks she's screwed. She could only dodge, but not in the middle of her super move.

So long, Morrigan. I hardly knew ye, and thank god for that http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif!

This is not a reasonable scenario given the dramatics of the storytelling, but you're asking me to take things like move priority and weapons into account when they just don't apply to these types of stories. The main characters win. That's why they're the main characters. Regardless of whether the powers are magical, supernatural, mechanical, battle spirit, godlike or whatever.

>>(Incidently, if Sokaku was anything like that, he must have been overpowering gameplay wise). And that's not even getting on the topic of relative damage levels etc. in each of the respective universes<<

Relative damage levels do not matter. Again, storytelling context. Jill would kill almost anything with her grenade launcher, but it would be written so that she would not hit with it. Same with other big attacks that would otherwise cause great damage to charcters like Terry.

>>But this is a silly thing to argue about. Different opinions are good; chaos leads to innovation Now where's that SS vs KoF game SNK?<<

For some reason, this topic compelled me. I don't know why, but I felt enthused about it. But now I am just tired. I have said all I can and it's time to go.

Thanks for asking the question, though. Good talks that made me really think.

See you at the SS vs KOF machine http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif!




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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[Rain]

Taiso: "Don't forget he showed up in RB2. In fact, if I remember correctly, the last boss in RB2 is a toss up between Geese or Krauser. I think."

I thought that RBFF2 was a dreammatch? Thats why no-one seemed to have a storyline and Geese was back....

[Taiso]

Rain:

I'd be inclined to agree with you about RB2 being a dream match except for the fact that Xiangfe and Rick made their debuts with that game. The only story to be told is in the endings (such as they are:P)and it's just a standard 'tournament' style game. I loved playing RB2 but it isn't a very memorable entry to the series outside of the new characters and -I think- enhanced fighting engine.

Taiso
"Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles..."

[Rain]

Don't forget Alfred... Hell, what was his story anyway? "Oh i've crashed my plane and now i'm gonna kick butt!"? Whats THAT about?

[Apathy Wind]

>>Nah, that's not true. I'm sure that we could both go back through our PILES of manga and find enough examples to back both of our theories.

The point is that manga/anime storytelling dynamics ignore realism in favor of drama. Ukyo's sword would be portrayed as an extra obstacle for Terry to overcome, but because Terry is SNK's strongest he'd be written to find a way to overcome the disadvantage.<<

That's what I said! The main guy overcomes the enemy because he's more powerful. And since he's more powerful than his opponent (and the main character) he'll always overcome that opponent - whether the guys fighting bare handed, with a sword, or an A-bomb. That's how anime/manga/comics etc are - the outcome is always predetermined (hero wins). The variables are unimportant.

>>And there is no indication that the KoF guys have that kind of edge on the SS'ers.

->True. And vice versa.<<

Agreed, they're equal. Wait... can I agree with my own point? http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/confused.gif

>>The potential is just greater with the blade.

->In real life, yes. In martial arts manga/anime and video games inspiried by it, no.

If a SS fighter makes a mistake against a KoF fighter, they'll get thumped REAL good. But if a Kof'er makes that same mistake against a SS guy, they're decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc.

->Nah...that's not how it would go at all.

The weaponless character would end up with a bunch of slashes all over his body and be bleeding profusely from all of them. And because of the storytelling dynamics particular to martial arts manga/anime, the weaponless character would still be portrayed as having a chance at victory up to the very end. Based on who it is, he might even end up winning.

And only flunkies/thugs/lackeys/goons ever get "decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc". And during the climax of the story or at appropriately dramatic moments, some supporting characters http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.>>

That's the thing, you're coming at this from a manga aspect and I'm coming at it from a real life aspect (a real life where people can throw tornados and launch purple flames and stuff - you know, like back in the 50's...). If people could actually do that stuff in life a fight between SS and KOf'ers would lean more towards my side. You are correct about the manga rendition though - wounds to the hero are rarely significant. So we are both right in our respective visions.

>>As well you should, mister "Ukyo's my avatar so I'm biased".<<

Oh that does it!! (reaches for the CAPLOCK key...) j/k. Actually I only took this avatar 'cause it goes with my user name - the SS flag waving is just coincidence. I'll admit I'm sword biased though (I collect them, it's a side effect)

>>Seriously, that's too bad. The series REALLY takes off with FF3.<<

Yeah I missed out on alot of good SNK games. Actually good Capcom games too (they stopped with those after the original SF3). But I can play Tekken whenever I want....

>>Magic discussion, Morrigan, that whole Jill MvC2 thing .. sorry, have to shorten this up a bit>>

All I'm saying about SS attacks versus KoF attacks is the SS attacks usually have larger surface areas. Better chance to get hit. Like Takuma's Haoh Shikou Ken in 98 (the fully charged one). You put the HSK versus a normal KoF projectile and there's no comparison. The HSK is bigger, more predominate. Much harder to avoid. Your average SS guys specials are bigger (and more readily available) than your average KoF'ers. And if it was in real life, it'd be a factor to consider.

Morrigan's Finishing Shower was the best example I could think of for a smothering overpowering super/special.

If you're going to go for real life arsenal (especially from MvC2) ya gotta take Iron Man or Dr. Doom or some Tech guy over Jill! They've got lasers and stuff - real cutting edge http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif

>>Relative damage levels do not matter. Again, storytelling context. Jill would kill almost anything with her grenade launcher, but it would be written so that she would not hit with it. Same with other big attacks that would otherwise cause great damage to charcters like Terry.<<

The relative levels relate in that one could assume that the damage dealt by a strike in SS is comparable to other damage dealt in SS (hence the lack of one hit kills). That is to say, we don't know how a fighter from a different relative damage system (ie. KoF) would compare. You could say SS guys are used to blade wounds from battle and the damage they take from a middle strength slash would register as less on their SS life bar than it would on a KoF life bar (KoF'er being a character used to punch/kick wounds). Oh course this is all groundless speculation, it could be argued the other way I'm sure. There is no 'measuring point' so we'll never know.

>>For some reason, this topic compelled me. I don't know why, but I felt enthused about it. But now I am just tired. I have said all I can and it's time to go.

Thanks for asking the question, though. Good talks that made me really think.<<

Yeah, I like arguing things too. It's fun!

>>See you at the SS vs KOF machine http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif!<<

Ya know, it's funny... If they made that game I'd probably use Terry - he's one of my favorite characters http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by Apathy Wind (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Taiso]

Rain:

The Alfred thing I don't really understand. I don't know his place in the SNK world and there isn't a whole lot on him. I can play him in the underrated PSX game Real Bout Special: Dominated Mind but the endings are all basically the same.

I don't know if he's somehow connected to the boss of that game, White, or not. How you summed it up is perfect: he crashes his plane and decides to fight Terry on the side of the road.

Huh:P?

Anyway, there it is...

Apathy Wind:

I won't say anything else about the debate but this: realism has no place in determining the pecking order in video games.

And yeah, Doc Doom would be a good choice. Or the Hulk since his green version is indestructible and gets stronger as he gets madder in the comics http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.

It's cool that you collect swords, but it also shows your bias towards them. That's cool, though. You probably have a better perspective on them than I do so your opinion stems from that in some respects. My opinion comes, generally, from the way these types of stories are told.

*WHEW!*

But Terry would still win http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.



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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Black_Hayato:
I think Kyosuke will pair off against Kyo!

They're both students that fight. They'd better tone Kyosuke down.

I think that's a great idea, but the only problem is that many people outside of the "hardcorers" probably don't know, or at least recognize Kyosuke.


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--Riot--

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:
I don't think Kim will become the main man or even a major player. The series belongs to K' now, and that's that. I'm a Terry Bogard fan before anything else, but even Terry is a supporting character in K's story.

But as for SNK's 'main man' overall, I think it's safe to say that it's Terry. He's always enjoyed a privileged spot at the top, has been in more SNK games than any other character and is consistently at the forefront of every game he's in. I don't think SNK suffers from the same type of Japanese 'nationalism' that other Japanese companies seem to have. They made Terry, an American, the main character in what was their marquee series until KOF came along, FF.

Geese is the ultimate bad guy in the SNK universe. Terry is his arch enemy. If Geese is the top bad guy, Terry is the top good guy. Nobody, not even the Orochi clan, has impacted SNK's universe as much as Geese Howard. Even in Capcom VS. SNK, the bad guys are Bison and GEESE. Not Rugal, not Krauser, not Yamazaki or the Jin brothers or Kain, Mr. Big, Mr. Karate, Wyler, Orochi, Goenitz, Krizalid, Zero or anybody else that I may have missed.

It was Geese.

And only one man, continuity wise, has what it takes to beat him.

Terry Bogard.

And so, Terry is the main man.

Whether Kyo fans like it or not http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.



One thing that I think should be taken into consideration is that CvS and (perhaps to a lesser degree) MotM don't focus on the rivalries between good guy and bad guy inside either of the respective companies.

In the final match of MotM (if you won the rival match), you face Evil Ryu if your leader is SNK and Orochi Iori if your leader is Capcom.

In the final match of CvS (unless you fght Akuma, which is more of a "bonus" than anything else), you fight Geese if your leader is Capcom and Balrog/Bison if your leader is SNK. (I don't like the imbalance there, by the way.)

I think that Rugal should have been the main SNK boss simply because I see him as being bigger in scope than all other SNK bosses, becuase he was the main boss of SNK's series of greatest scope (KoF) THREE times. And now that other people bring it up, maybe someone else (Gill?) should replace Bison. (See the thread I started on SNK's main boss for more.)




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--Riot--

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by D`Cloud:
well, It's ok to me for kyo to be replaced. besides, kyo sucks in CVS bigtime. heheh! his 'finalshowdown' sucks too. anyway... i dont want to argue on who's stronger. but the swapping makes a bit of sense too...
Since cvs2 probably wont have endings at all, I'd want the ff pairing happen in cvs2
Terry - Ryu
Bison - Geese
Ken - Kyo
Sean - Shingo
K' - Alex
yun & yang - donghwan & jaehoon
Krauser - sagat ( hi-lo battle! LOL!)
leona - guile
chang - zangief (..)
billy kane - dhalsim
big bear - honda
Ryo - ??

Billy Kane - Dhalsim?? I don't understand that one... but Ryo's rival should definitely be Dan!


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[Apathy Wind]

>>I won't say anything else about the debate but this: realism has no place in determining the pecking order in video games.<<

Closing statement time, huh? Okay - it is about time we moved on. My summation: You are correct about realism's place in videogames. However, every videogame has it's hero. If the two heroes from two different games faced each other they couldn't compete with the anime/manga rules, as each would be protected by the 'unbeatable hero' aspect. That only leaves dull reality to sort things out..

>>It's cool that you collect swords, but it also shows your bias towards them.<<

Yes, I freely admitted to that. But we all have our biases

>>But Terry would still win http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.<<

I would be disappointed if you said anything else http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif Seriously though, thanks for participating - it was a great discussion!

[Apathy Wind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RiotoftheBlood:
Billy Kane - Dhalsim?? I don't understand that one...


I believe he was going for a long reach (Dhalsim's arms vs. Billy staff) kind of thing.

[Rain]

don't forget:

Rose:Chizaru
Gill:Orochi
Balrog:Heavy D!
Bishamon:Shiki... that would be cool! (If only because it would get them both in the game!)

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Apathy Wind:
I believe he was going for a long reach (Dhalsim's arms vs. Billy staff) kind of thing.

Ahh... I didn't think of that. Makes sense.


------------------
--Riot--

[Rugal 3:16]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rain:
don't forget:

Rose:Chizaru
Gill:Orochi
Balrog:Heavy D!
Bishamon:Shiki... that would be cool! (If only because it would get them both in the game!)



It's CHIZURU NOT Chizaru I wonder why there are some people who still uses that.

[Rugal 3:16]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:


Omega Rugal was not a COMBINATION of Geese and Krauser. Perish the thought entirely. He was a CROSS between the two. Sure, he was supercharged with Orochi power, but so what? I'd say a ressurected Geese with the power of the Jin scrolls is a match for Omega Rugal any day, and Terry put him down all the same





sorry but i have to GREATLY and ADAMANTLY disagree on this

you see.. Rugal IS concepted to be a combination OF BOTH Geese and Krauser.. why?

TO show his superiority .. that's why he has the reppuken and kaiser wave not only is it an indication of his superiority OVER THE TWO (G and K) BUT SNK was rubbing IN the fact. sure you might say Rugal ONLY has one of each's moves BUT that IS ONLY for gameplay reasons, Plus SNK confirmed Rugal's powers to be COPYING those energy signatures of his opponents as well as their styles and improve on them by his way AND still generate his own moves, Rugal IS capable of doint the double reppuken, the leg tomahawk, the Blitz ball, the body blows, the jai ei ken, EVEN the raging storm and deadly Rave If he wishes only the Computer couln't put in such memory, Geese masters the scrolls, Fine Rugal can just look at him and learn the scrolls energy by duplicating it's signature energy pattern and use it on himself, Plus the Orochi is more powerful than the scrolls..

Proof.

The scrolls only span across the Fatal Fury saga, if it was a bigger threat than the orochi THEN SNK would make it as the prime power struggle in the KOF 95-97 era. but it's not


PLus Geese can't do well against Three people as much as Rugal does, you might say Rugal lost in 94 and 95 BUT THAT IS ONLY because of the concept of "Good Guys always win" Plus Geese was beaten By ONE MAN only Terry, also when Geese enetered KOF 96 he still had a team, you might say he's just using them storywise but Structural wise WHY WOULD SNK PUT GEESE IN A TEAM IF THEY KNEW HE WAS CAPABLE OF BEING A KOF BOSS (someone who fights 3 people) Plus his team is not only a normal team It's a team of THREE BOSSES (in CvS terms it's like 3 Ratio 3's) against a KOF Boss Goenitz (who is supposedly Ratio 9 If you approximate it in KOF power level) Rugal is in the same Leugue as Goenitz in KOF, Geese is not a KOF Boss, sure you might say Goenitz is stronger than Rugal But let's say Geese, Krausert and Big where in KOF 94' I'm sure you would also have to fight them BEFORE Rugal, meaning

Kof Boss > Fatal Fury Boss
1.
plus if we have a Geese without the scrolls (Fatal Fury 1 Geese) against Rugal without orochi (KOF 94') [sure you might say Rugal siphoned it already before 94 BUT HE STILL DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE IT, therefore it's Orochi-less Rugal, PLUS if Rugal was already using the orochi power in 94 THERE WOULD BE NO distinction of being an Omga Rugal, you might argue they have thje same moves BUT AGAIN that is gameplay-reasons, they just combined a playable Rugal with a story of a powered up Rugal concpt]

so it's proof that Rugal is superior in power when they don't have anything
2.
when we have Rugal with orochi power vs Geese with scrolls, Rugal woulkd still be more powerful because as i said and proved that the orochi is more powerful than the scrolls
3.
if say we both have Both Geese and Rugal learned BOTH the scrolls and orochi Rugal is still more powerful because we take basis to number 1.

the judgement here is Geese = Vegeta, Krauser = Gokou. Gokou + Vegeta = Vegetto so Geese + Krauser = Rugal (you might say Rugal is a separate person as compared to the vegetto persona BUT the concept is simmilar Rugal was created by SNK TO BE STRONGER than NOT JUST Geese but both Geese and Krauser, not only is it a showcase they are rubbing it in. the reason why Rugal didn't have all of Geese and Krauser's moves was because of gameplay related reasons (not to mention he would be so cheap)

also maybe they had a RANDOM drawing of selecting One of Geese's and one of Krauser's moves and out of a lot the two moves that came out were the reppuken and kaiser wave as much as memory can handle it, but think of it Rugal COULD have been given the raging storm and the blitz balls instead.

about Terry vs Kyo I like Terry Better BUT Kyo is stronger he beat Terry in KOF 94' in a stunning upset and i guess Setsuna X can explain it better..

but my point is

KOF Boss (Rugal, Goenitz, etc.) is MADE by SNK TO BE STRONGER than FatalFury/AOF Bosses (Geese, Krauser, Big, WYLER)


otherwise Geese, Krauser, Big would have been the KOF boss and Rugal would just be the boss of a ONE on ONE game like Fatal Fury.

------------------
I'm goin up I'm comin' in.. pull em' down and let's ***********IN

[Taiso]

I read the last post, and politely say that it's bunk http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.

I'm not going to get into a debate about which boss is stronger. Arguing which main character is stronger really taxed me out on the whole 'who would win, Superman or Son Goku' type thingy.

I'm posting this to tell you that while I have the impetus to debate the point, I don't have the energy to follow through. So I'll pleasantly disagree with you and say that my comments regarding Rugal and Geese from prior posts in this thread remain the same. Agree or disagree, I just don't have the enthusiasm to discuss it anymore.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

You've only said the same thing that others have in a different way. You haven't changed my mind but I appreciate you trying to prove me wrong for the satisfaction of KOF/Kyo fans. FF fans are still, by and large, going to take my stance. KOF fans are going to take yours. Nothing else can be done about it.

I will comment on one thing, though. And here it is:

>>about Terry vs Kyo I like Terry Better BUT Kyo is stronger he beat Terry in KOF 94' in a stunning upset and i guess Setsuna X can explain it better..<<

It doesn't matter to me what Setsuna X has to say about it (and I'm sure he/she/it is a nice person).

I've been there since the beginning with FF 1, have compiled all the source materials, read all the Neo Geo Freak articles that my Japanese reading friends have been generous enough to translate for me, read all the non-canon spinoff mangas, watched the non-canon related anime and researched the topic heavily. My prior posts on this thread should adequately indicate all of that.

I feel I know as much as anybody on the subject and until I sit in the offices of SNK Japan talking to the creators and hearing them tell me otherwise, it's going to take a much more convincing argument than what you've pitched to change my mind.

I'm not saying your comments aren't important. You seem intense enough to educate yourself about it to a degree that makes you comfortable. I respect that. My response is a perfect indication that I feel strongly, for some silly reason, about this subject. If I didn't care about what you had to say, I simply wouldn't respond.

It just that your comments happen to be in opposition to what my own extensive deliberations have led to. I hope you understand. I'm not 'dissing' you http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif.

Terry is still the strongest http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif!

Nyah nyah http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/smile.gif!



------------------
http://www.raddradio.com/images/tom/hanzo.gif

Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[Rugal 3:16]

well I have proven valid unbiased points but that doesn't mean i don't respect anything you might have, like I said I LIKE TERRY BETTER THAN KYO But I will admit Kyo is stonger (don't have much time to prove it too, coz i won't be posting tomorrow or sometimes soon fter this) soI won't let bias get in my way, the fact is Rugal is stronger than Geese and there's even no sign of bias in my presentation agree or disagree it's as valid as i have basis to prove it, well even if Geese was stronger I wouldn't mind because i don't judege a fighter like "he has to be the strongest in order to be my favorite" well let's jut leave it that

Nothing I ill say will make you change your opinion

and Nothing you can say is going to make me change mine about Five times as much in proportion to being adamant.

BTW do you know chi?

[Rugal 3:16]

well I don't need any "standard of judgement" or any phrase that makes you fel comfortable as to think it's also enough to convince me this and that, as I ould not like to limit myself to a form of understanding that limits itself to what any perpetrator ellaborates it in it's equity, you sounded like you want to target me directly but i'm not going idle, i'm just saying, THIS IS A FORUM many can agree and disagree it's a two-way process. have a nice day

[Taiso]

>>you sounded like you want to target me directly but i'm not going idle,<<

I understand. I wasn't 'targeting' anyone. If my comments made you feel like you were being lined up in crosshairs, I'm sorry. I certainly didn't mean for them to come out that way. I thought we were just having a discussion about video games.

I also don't interpret any lack of posting on your part as acquiescing to my point of view or 'giving up' or anything like that. Like me, you and Shin_Kyo (a cool cat in my book) probably figure you can only say so much before it feels like you're beating a dead horse. Or maybe you've got more important things to do than argue video game character priorities. Or maybe you just don't have the time for it.

On internet forums there is a tendency to see a lack of activity on one side's part during a debate as 'giving up' or 'admitting defeat' when the truth of the matter is usually that there's just nothing else to say.

>>i'm just saying, THIS IS A FORUM many can agree and disagree it's a two-way process.<<

I couldn't agree with this statement more. I thought that's what we were doing.

>>have a nice day<<

This just seems pointed to me. Why the sarcastic afterthought?

I respect you and your views on Rugal and Kyo. I'm just saying, in the nicest way possible, based on the conclusions I've come to, that I think you're wrong. You think I'm wrong. I'm cool with that. So let's be nice to each other, okay?

Edited to include the following:

>>BTW do you know chi?<<

No, but I've read about this one in a couple of other threads. Why do you ask?

------------------
http://www.raddradio.com/images/tom/hanzo.gif

Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[This message has been edited by Taiso (edited April 30, 2001).]

[fomaman]

whatever- i don't give a fuck who's stronger
or more powerful, just who's COOLER and more
of a bad ass and whether they are more powerful than rugal or not, geese and krauser
both blow him away in terms of storyline and character design and personality. for those
reasons, they'll always be my favorite villains and i'm sure i speak for a lot of
KOF and FF fans when i say that an appearance
from them in a future KOF storyline/game would be awesome. btw, i think terry could probably kick kyo's ass. the guy's just got
more heart.

[Rain]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fomaman:
whatever- i don't give a fuck who's stronger
or more powerful, just who's COOLER and more
of a bad ass and whether they are more powerful than rugal or not, geese and krauser
both blow him away in terms of storyline and character design and personality. for those
reasons, they'll always be my favorite villains and i'm sure i speak for a lot of
KOF and FF fans when i say that an appearance
from them in a future KOF storyline/game would be awesome. btw, i think terry could probably kick kyo's ass. the guy's just got
more heart.


Damn straight! Rugal is the best KOF boss though, with IMHO Goenitz second... Orochi is perhaps third.

[Tekyo]

Well Kyo won in the Kof 94(Actually Snk say that Terry threw the fight) And other is that Terry only enter in the King of Fighters to improve and fun. He don´t have nothing to do with the Orochi story so Terry wasn´t the Main guy in Kof series but The stronger yes indeed he is the Strongest of All the Snk fighters.
Even in a comic of Andy Seto Kyo says this:

Terry, your determination was always stronger than mine. I believe that before i got this strong you could have won the tournaments yourself

[HIDDEN WARRIOR]

From my highly extensive research I must completely agree with you RUGAL 3:16.Its surprising to me that even now there are those that believe terry can beat kyo.Its absurd.

As for who won RBS/RB 2?nobody RAIN.It never happened story-wise.

As for the weapon vs. non-weapon match.Assuming two fighters are of equal skill and power,lets say its haohmaru vs. ryu,Its obvious who would win.The former.After giving each other equal amount of blows,the sword will do more damage.It might end in a double KO but hours after,haohmaru would wake bruised and beaten but ryu would probably have died from blood loss or be in a coma.

[Krusader]

Why is it so absurd to see Terry stronger than Kyo? In many ways I think so myself, and it's not my preferences. It's just the whole style of KOF and FF and the storyline.

Sure Kyo is powerful because of his flames, but he is also inexperienced. Terry has much more fighting experience and he pretty much trains around the world, like Ryu does. Kyo is stil in highschool and learned techniques from his father. Basically Kyo has fighting skills and his flames while Terry has fighting skills and experience. It's all a matter of opinion from then on.

I can't really see what real facts prevent this otherwise. If you bring up any KOF storyline, it can all be easily disregarded. We all know who the story will favour since it's done manga-style. I mean the mythical battle with Orochi, the whole Nests Cartel conspiracy... It all centers around Kyo of course, because he's the main character. The Fatal Fury series never really did focus on storyline that much. They did have backdrops for the characters and even had intertwining/coherent storylines, but nothing that really stands out. That's why Terry seems so inferior.

So other than storyline and the fact that Kyo can produce flames, how is he stronger than Terry?

[Lockheed]

I also think Terry is the most powerful SNK hero of them all. In regards to experience, Terry is older, but Kyo has had his father to train him virtually his entire life, while Terry (from what I've gathered) only started to really bust his butt after his father died, and even then trained on his own.

Also, look at Terry's fighting code. He doesn't fight to win. He fights for the fight itself, for the enjoyment, for the experience, because it's just something he loves to do. Both in and out of the fight, he's a happy-go-lucky sort. Meanwhile, Kyo has this entire storyline based around him and the destiny of him and his family/rival clans. It's kind of a no-brainer why he's the main focus of the storyline, don't you think?

Heck, Liu Kang defeated Shang Tsung in Mortal Kombat, but does that make him more powerful than, say, Rayden? Not by a long shot!

Kyo is a great fighter, but I just don't see him being more powerful than Terry at all.

[Rain]

Originally posted by HIDDEN WARRIOR:
<STRONG>From my highly extensive research I must completely agree with you RUGAL 3:16.Its surprising to me that even now there are those that believe terry can beat kyo.Its absurd.

As for who won RBS/RB 2?nobody RAIN.It never happened story-wise.

As for the weapon vs. non-weapon match.Assuming two fighters are of equal skill and power,lets say its haohmaru vs. ryu,Its obvious who would win.The former.After giving each other equal amount of blows,the sword will do more damage.It might end in a double KO but hours after,haohmaru would wake bruised and beaten but ryu would probably have died from blood loss or be in a coma.</STRONG>

Real Bout Special DID happen. Only the fight against Geese is considered a Dream Match. Hence, the tag "Nightmare Geese"

[HIDDEN WARRIOR]

Believe what you want rain;its to no personal cost of mine what you wish to believe.

Im surprised,no im shocked to believe there are still,in this day and age,people who believe that terry is stronger then kyo despite official snk proof of the opposite.I thought only those from the gamefaqs.com forums were so mislead.Im sure in time you will see what im saying.It wont hit you now but perhaps in 5 years you'll understand.So please speak to me on this very subject in 5 years and let me hear what new info you have learned on the matter.Abayo

[Tekyo]

Originally posted by HIDDEN WARRIOR:
<STRONG>Believe what you want rain;its to no personal cost of mine what you wish to believe.

Im surprised,no im shocked to believe there are still,in this day and age,people who believe that terry is stronger then kyo despite official snk proof of the opposite.I thought only those from the gamefaqs.com forums were so mislead.Im sure in time you will see what im saying.It wont hit you now but perhaps in 5 years you'll understand.So please speak to me on this very subject in 5 years and let me hear what new info you have learned on the matter.Abayo</STRONG>

You don´t know the story man. Maybe I don´t hae the magazine but I only based in the game. And Terry is the best Snk fighter ever too far

[Rain]

Originally posted by HIDDEN WARRIOR:
<STRONG>Believe what you want rain;its to no personal cost of mine what you wish to believe.

Im surprised,no im shocked to believe there are still,in this day and age,people who believe that terry is stronger then kyo despite official snk proof of the opposite.I thought only those from the gamefaqs.com forums were so mislead.Im sure in time you will see what im saying.It wont hit you now but perhaps in 5 years you'll understand.So please speak to me on this very subject in 5 years and let me hear what new info you have learned on the matter.Abayo</STRONG>


Thanks, I don't care what you think either :) Joke. Anyway, Terry is stronger than Kyo. Remember that Kyo is still learning to be a truely great fighter, and Terry is at the top of his game at the moment. In a few years Kyo will more than likely be at Terrys power level. Until then, Terry is stronger.

[ANOTHER STRIKER]

Main character swap...pardon my lack of knowledge but who are the new characters in CVS2???
(Would'nt one of them become main character???)

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: ANOTHER STRIKER ]

[Batsu_Power]

Originally posted by ANOTHER STRIKER:
<STRONG>Main character swap...pardon my lack of knowledge but who are the new characters in CVS2???
(Would'nt one of them become main character???)

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: ANOTHER STRIKER ]</STRONG>


http://www.capcom.co.jp/newproducts/consumer/moejus/image/chara03s.gif Well, the new characters are Yun (Street Fighter 3 series), Hoahmaru (Samurai Shodown), Athena Assimiya (King of Fighters) and me, Kyosuke(Project Justice/Rival Schools). I hope that helped ;)

http://www.capcom.co.jp/newproducts/consumer/moejus/image/chara03s.gif Edit: That's just the first set of new characters which are announced. Dan and Joe from CvS Pro will be in CvS2.

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Batsu_Power ]

[jeff bogard]

look guys i also agree that it was an error to put kyo as main. terry deserves that place and we as gamers prove our point. however let's not forget the guys from metal slug and samurai spirits and last blade. these guys also deserve a spot just like megaman.

here is my list of who should rival with who
kyo-terry
gouki-iori
sean-rock
sakura-shingo
clark-zangief
k'-ken
kyo-morrigan or someone superior in other game
the guy from metal slug-megaman
geese-bison
orochi-gill
sagat-laurence blood

but let's face it leona, kyo,haomaru,kaede,morrigan,rugal,
oh well that is all ican think of that need nemesis in snk-cap

[RiotoftheBlood]

Originally posted by Batsu_Power:
<STRONG>
http://www.capcom.co.jp/newproducts/consumer/moejus/image/chara03s.gif Well, the new characters are Yun (Street Fighter 3 series), Hoahmaru (Samurai Shodown), Athena Assimiya (King of Fighters) and me, Kyosuke(Project Justice/Rival Schools). I hope that helped ;)

http://www.capcom.co.jp/newproducts/consumer/moejus/image/chara03s.gif Edit: That's just the first set of new characters which are announced. Dan and Joe from CvS Pro will be in CvS2.

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Batsu_Power ]</STRONG>

What about Lilith?? She was one of the first two characters announced, along with Athena.

[RiotoftheBlood]

Originally posted by jeff bogard:
<STRONG>look guys i also agree that it was an error to put kyo as main. terry deserves that place and we as gamers prove our point. however let's not forget the guys from metal slug and samurai spirits and last blade. these guys also deserve a spot just like megaman.

here is my list of who should rival with who
kyo-terry
gouki-iori
sean-rock
sakura-shingo
clark-zangief
k'-ken
kyo-morrigan or someone superior in other game
the guy from metal slug-megaman
geese-bison
orochi-gill
sagat-laurence blood

but let's face it leona, kyo,haomaru,kaede,morrigan,rugal,
oh well that is all ican think of that need nemesis in snk-cap</STRONG>

Megaman hasn't been in any of the CvS games, and for good reason. CvS is more of a pure fighting game than Marvel vs. Capcom, and it should stay that way. The same goes for Nemesis. Besides, no matter what you hit Nemsis with, you couldn't K.O. him before the timer ran out. If anything Nemesis may have made a good boss for MvC2.

[Taiso]

I think CvS needs to stick to the SF and KOF universes. I like Megaman, Metal Slug, Last Blade and Vampire and all of those other games, but none of those series are natural matchups for the two universes that inspired the game to begin with. I don't want characters like Megaman or people with guns like Marco or Fio to be a part of this series.

I was disappointed that Morrigan and Nakoruru were included at the expense of characters like Guy, Cody, Haggar, Alex, K', Eiji, Robert and Andy. I'm also disappointed that characters like Haohmaru from SS are showing up. Please don't misunderstand; I LOVE SS (I'm a BIG fan of samurai/sengoku period stuff). It's just that there are characters from the more established parts of the respective universes that I'd rather see in the game. Am I forever going to be denied my desire to truly see a Ken vs. Andy fight just to be able to play Haohmaru and Morrigan?

I kind of like the fact that they adhered to some form of time period consistency in the first game (except for the two secret characters). Nakoruru and Morrigan just don't fit with the rest of the characters. I would prefer that the game stick to its old school roots and have some kind of storyline that takes a stab at making sense rather than throw a bunch of gimmick characters in there just for variety's sake.

I know the series is called Capcom VS SNK and not Street Fighter II vs King Of Fighters. But the reason the game came into existence is because the SF and KOF characters seemed to match up perfectly with one another and the mere thought of a Ryu vs. Terry fight begged the question 'who really IS the strongest?' in everybody's minds.

I'd rather have characters like Andy and Guy before characters like Haohmaru and Morrigan. Rival Schools is okay, I guess. At least it's 'street fighter-ish' enough to seem like a natural inclusion. Kyosuke's an odd choice to me, though. I'd rather see Batsu and Akira :).

[HIDDEN WARRIOR]

to tekyo:I dont know the story?Thats my line to you.

to rain:You know what the real joke is?By stating that im wrong is the same as saying snk's own writers are wrong;and who are you to tell snk they are wrong.If you wish to believe lies then so be it,I will not try to convince you otherwise.You obviously took my previous reply as a challenge or an insult.Youre misunderstanding not mine.It was never either a challenge nor an insult.It was a simple statement:I dont care what you think.I'll tell you what rain,i'll go a step further.How about you list the reasons why you think terry is stronger then kyo.But i'll tell you one thing;every one of your reasons I will see coming and have heard before.You will not surprise me.I will find each and every flaw in your logic.Nothing will be new to me.Already you have given me ammunition you see.You have stated to me your first reason why you think that terry is stronger then kyo.Because kyo is training but terry isnt?BWAAHAAAHAAAAA!then explain why terry all of a sudden learned a new move one day called the power geyser?But it doesnt end there.One day terry learns another new move called the power dunk then he learns the triple geyser.But it doesnt end there.His training continues.Later on he learns the round wave then the bashing sway.Then the power charge then the high angle geyser then the fire kick then the power drive then the power shoot then the overheat geyser then the heat up geyser.recently(sort of because MOTW takes place in 2008 thus in the future)terry learns the buster wolf.Seems like your buddy terry has been training well dont you?And even learns a new super in the near future?Are you getting at what im saying rain?There all training and perfecting their fighting skills.All of them.kyo,terry,andy,joe,ryo,robert,benimaru,kim,io ri,jhun,hinako,heidern,athena,etc etc.
It doesnt seem that you know terry very well rain.Ask terry yourself.He would tell you that he is still training.I have asked him personally.Im the mighty krauser and he told me he still trains to one day beat me.I hope this isnt the full extent of your logic rain.I find it lacking but I hope you take my challenge anyway.Already,if this was a court case,I have put dought into the minds of the jury;and this is only my opening statement.......

[Rain]

Originally posted by HIDDEN WARRIOR:
<STRONG>to tekyo:I dont know the story?Thats my line to you.

to rain:You know what the real joke is?By stating that im wrong is the same as saying snk's own writers are wrong;and who are you to tell snk they are wrong.If you wish to believe lies then so be it,I will not try to convince you otherwise.You obviously took my previous reply as a challenge or an insult.Youre misunderstanding not mine.It was never either a challenge nor an insult.It was a simple statement:I dont care what you think.I'll tell you what rain,i'll go a step further.How about you list the reasons why you think terry is stronger then kyo.But i'll tell you one thing;every one of your reasons I will see coming and have heard before.You will not surprise me.I will find each and every flaw in your logic.Nothing will be new to me.Already you have given me ammunition you see.You have stated to me your first reason why you think that terry is stronger then kyo.Because kyo is training but terry isnt?BWAAHAAAHAAAAA!then explain why terry all of a sudden learned a new move one day called the power geyser?But it doesnt end there.One day terry learns another new move called the power dunk then he learns the triple geyser.But it doesnt end there.His training continues.Later on he learns the round wave then the bashing sway.Then the power charge then the high angle geyser then the fire kick then the power drive then the power shoot then the overheat geyser then the heat up geyser.recently(sort of because MOTW takes place in 2008 thus in the future)terry learns the buster wolf.Seems like your buddy terry has been training well dont you?And even learns a new super in the near future?Are you getting at what im saying rain?There all training and perfecting their fighting skills.All of them.kyo,terry,andy,joe,ryo,robert,benimaru,kim,io ri,jhun,hinako,heidern,athena,etc etc.
It doesnt seem that you know terry very well rain.Ask terry yourself.He would tell you that he is still training.I have asked him personally.Im the mighty krauser and he told me he still trains to one day beat me.I hope this isnt the full extent of your logic rain.I find it lacking but I hope you take my challenge anyway.Already,if this was a court case,I have put dought into the minds of the jury;and this is only my opening statement.......</STRONG>

1st Point: I never said Terry wasn't training. Reread my post and you'll see this.

2nd Point: Terry beat Krauser in FF2 and RBFFS.

3rd Point:
I have no interest in this feeble "Challenge" as you said yourself, you've heard all of my arguments before. Face it. Whatever I say, you won't listen, you'll just go on and on about how Kyo is better at this, Kyo is better at that.... Its pointless man... Unless YOU can give me a steller reason why Kyo is much stronger, I have no interest in this topic :)

4th Point: It was neither a challenge or an insult. Check how it says "Joke" afterwards.... you really should read my last post a bit better next time.....

[Taiso]

Yo.

Hidden.

Please...relax.

There's no reason to attack anyone over this. Your anger is showing in your posts and this subject matter really isn't important enough to get bent out of shape over it. Your most recent response was very arrogant and acid laced, which shows me that while you claim not to care, you very much do. Maybe too much if you have no reservations about insulting others about it.

Rain was just joking around with you. He was trying to be friendly in his own way and have some fun with the comments being said around here. He didn't mean to be insulting by it.

I like you, Hidden Warrior. You're intense and you care a lot about the things you post. When the ON/NG thing was big news, you were right at the forefront fighting your battle. I respected the boldness of that, so please don't take this to mean I have anything less than admiration for your beliefs.

I'd like to think that we can just have a pleasant conversation about these things we care so much about, have some interesting discourse and when agreements can't be reached simply agree to disagree. We shouldn't get ugly about it just because one person won't see things from another person's viewpoint based on his own experiences.

I've read the SNK press releases (or had them read to me when they were in Japanese), and every year their story changes. I've read (or again, have had read to me) the manga, short stories, passages in Japanese strategy guides and all of that stuff. I have an Asahiya Books within driving distance, and believe you me I buy it all. The soundtracks, the strategy guides, the artbooks, the toys, all of it (especially the games). And I read all of the literature that comes with it, too. So trust me when I say that my knowledge on SNK continuity is pretty extensive.

On a semi unrelated note, while my actual neo collection isn't as great as some others around here, if you included all of the peripheral stuff my collection would rival almost anybody's, I think.

Back to relevance (sorry!), the continuity is there, but it's obvious we care about it more than SNK does. You're taking what you've read as the truth and it's upsetting you that other people have ALSO decided on the truth based on their experiences. Everyone's experiences are what they are. You think Kyo's stronger. Fine. Rain thinks Terry's stronger. Great. You could argue until you're blue in the face and so could he, but that would be a fruitless gesture (and Rain realizes that). That's really why I stopped posting major comments on this thread to begin with. There was nothing else to say.

If people won't agree with me after everything I've said on the topic, then that's that. I'm happy with my efforts to determine SNK's pecking order, and if others want to disagree with that (like you) that's cool.

But we shouldn't be mean spirited about all of this. It's just video games, y'know?

So let's all have fun with it, like we're supposed to.

Okay?

Cheers?

*offers Hidden Warrior a drink from his gourd of sake*

[Rain]

Once again your the voice of reason Taiso ;)True, thats what I stated in my last post, it was a kinda pointless argument so I decided to end it. We stick up for our favourite characters like the fans that we are. I think that Kyo is a great fighter, and lately i've been using him way more than Terry. So lets be friends man after all wer'e all here for the same reason ;)

*Offers HIDDEN a Cool Bud*

[ May 08, 2001: Message edited by: Rain ]

[HIDDEN WARRIOR]

*HIDDEN WARRIOR stares at gourd and at cool bud....hmmmmm "WHAT NO PEPSI?!!!!GRRRRRRRR!"yells hidden warrior but then mixes both and sits down to drink this unique brew,"YUM" ecsapes the lips of the mighty krauser.*


BURP!

[Taiso]

*smiles and pats Hidden Warrior on the back*

The neo community is a better place when we're all getting along, right :)?

[FUUMA]

Goldberg Kicks Ass!!
...So does Terry!!! Sorry Kyo!!

[FUUMA]

Oops, sorry, I didn't see that there was like 4 pages to this thread.
Sorry!!

[Rain]

*Thinks that the world is indeed a better place*

Anyway, I was thinking earlier, wouldn't it be great if Capcom headlined the series with Dan and Joe? Afterall, they did win the first CVS. Maybe thats why they are in Pro? As the headliners for that game, Capcom can half inch them for the second game..... *Thinks Dark Thoughts*

[Tekyo]

It´s crap. Again the main chars. are Kyo and Ryu I can´t believe this trash. Again Terry is a third place

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally posted by KiddragoN7676:
<STRONG>i dunno for me SNK main persons have always been Terry,Andy and joe....i think in the KOF Series Kyo & Iori have always taken centre stage..... the 1st CvsS was more like street fighter vs KOF so maybe thats why kyo was the main guy if the 2nd is gonna be true Capcom vs snk then its right that terry should be the main character against Ryu!!

</STRONG>

You know, I was just about to type the same exact answer. You hit the nail RIGHT on the head with this one. All these characters they are adding now is to get away from KOF vs SF. It's not called that, it's called Capcom vs SNK, people!

Outside of KOF, Kyo is nothing. However, Terry is everywhere, and in every game he's in, he's a huge part of it. Hell yes it should be Terry as the main guy from SNK.

Yeah, Ryu is Capcom's main man, but I like Guile much more. Oh well. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Spike

[Rain]

Who's Guile's rival now anyway? It better not be Iori again.

[shin-kyo]

Originally posted by Tekyo:
<STRONG>It´s crap. Again the main chars. are Kyo and Ryu I can´t believe this trash. Again Terry is a third place</STRONG>

MUAHAHAH!!!
YES!
Sorry Dude...
but ...
YES!!!
<IMG SRC="smilies/glee.gif" border="0">

[Lockheed]

I want to see a 1-on-1 KoF tournament with no melodramatic Orochi backgrounds, "destinies", bloodties, or any other fluff. Just a straight-up 1-on-1 fighting tournament. No excuses or storylines to bail characters out. THEN we'll see who's the best!

Man, I REALLY want to see Terry kick Kyo's arse from USA to Japan-muahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!

<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[Rugal 3:16]

Terry's CvS counterpart is Sagat


and Rugal's new counterpart is AKUMA!!!!

[Rugal 3:16]

Originally posted by shin-kyo:
<STRONG>MUAHAHAH!!!
YES!
Sorry Dude...
but ...
YES!!!
<IMG SRC="smilies/glee.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

At least tht leaves you NO argument to support the Geese-Bison counterparting (unless of course by Bias)

Kyo and Geese WILL NEVER BE PARALLEL..

Kyo and Geese is like

Batsu vs M.Bison

or

Ryu vs Hyo Imawano

2 different structural standings..

It should be either

Terry vs Geese OR
Kyo vs Rugal

Kyo vs Geese is IRRELEVANAT (like Batsu vs M.Bison)

[Vanessa_Power]

I thought Guil's R. was Rugal because they had an intro in the first game, but hey everything can change <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

anyway yah Terry should be or Iori even better hehehe

but I think they will make it Kyo again like usual but lets hope there is an intro between Terry and Kyo telling him "why you... <IMG SRC="smilies/veryangry.gif" border="0"> ???"

[ May 23, 2001: Message edited by: the_dark_side_of_Vanessa ]

[shin-kyo]

Probably Rugal..
but heck i dun really need a reason to cheer my character on.
I was hoping for Omega Rugal to be the end boss, btw does anyone know who the bosses are yet? It had better not be Bison/Geese again..

[Rugal 3:16]

Well at least if Geese is a boss, I Hope Rugal will also be one

since Rugal's CvS2 counterpart is no longer Sagat but AKUMA!!

proof..

http://www.shoryuken.com/features/cvs2/CharSelectOptrions.jpg

below Bison in the strategic boss placing is Akuma

below Geese in the strategic boss placing is RUGAL!!

[Ramjet Aries]

Hmmm... I dunno about the pairings on the character select screen whether this character is matched against whoever. I'm just waiting for the whole game to come out so I can start playing it already.

BTW, I just got to see some of the screenshots, courtesy of R3:16's referral and so far the game sure looks promising indeed!

[RiotoftheBlood]

Originally posted by Rugal 3:16:
<STRONG>

below Bison in the strategic boss placing is Akuma

below Geese in the strategic boss placing is RUGAL!!</STRONG>

It's strange that Sagat doesn't appear near the other Capcom bosses, don't you think? I wonder who his SNK rival could be?? Maybe Joe? Makes sense.

[Rugal 3:16]

Originally posted by RiotoftheBlood:
<STRONG>It's strange that Sagat doesn't appear near the other Capcom bosses, don't you think? I wonder who his SNK rival could be?? Maybe Joe? Makes sense.</STRONG>

Sagat's counterpart is Terry Bogard.

[Rain]

Originally posted by Rugal 3:16:
<STRONG>Sagat's counterpart is Terry Bogard.</STRONG>

How the hell did Capcom figure that one out?

[Lockheed]

Guess Terry takes up Thai fighting in his spare time?

<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Krusader]

Originally posted by Rugal 3:16:
<STRONG>At least tht leaves you NO argument to support the Geese-Bison counterparting (unless of course by Bias)

Kyo and Geese WILL NEVER BE PARALLEL..

Kyo and Geese is like

Batsu vs M.Bison

or

Ryu vs Hyo Imawano

2 different structural standings..

It should be either

Terry vs Geese OR
Kyo vs Rugal

Kyo vs Geese is IRRELEVANAT (like Batsu vs M.Bison)</STRONG>

If you really break it down and think about it, Ryu vs Bison makes little sense at all. Ryu fights for the challenge and is only in the competition for the sake of competition. Same with Ken.

Guile and Chunli are the ones who entered the tournament seeking out Bison. Just as Heidern seeks revenge on Rugal.

Anyways, the only true Hero-Boss matchup is Terry and Geese.

[Rugal 3:16]

Originally posted by Krusader:
[QB]If you really break it down and think about it, Ryu vs Bison makes little sense at all. Ryu fights for the challenge and is only in the competition for the sake of competition. Same with Ken.

[QB]


You're looking at it at the story's point of view how about expanding it on STRUCTURE..

you see sure Ryu doesn't care about Bison But at least THEY ARE BOTH in a street fighter game, it's as fine as seeing other main characters and main villains that hardly give a damn about each other Ala Batsu vs Hyo (because we know Hyo is more parallel to Kyosuke) so if we put in Kyo vs Geese, it would make much less less sense than Ryu vs Bison because sure Geese was a KOF character in 96 but then again he's like a guest his real structural standing depends on Garou, (much parallel to how Sakura was a guest in RS1) so

having Kyo vs Geese is like

Imagine this

Ryu vs Hyo Imawano
or Batsu vs Bison


different structural standing.

see the oddness, this makes Ryu vs Bison reasonable.

[ May 27, 2001: Message edited by: Rugal 3:16 ]