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Iie-Kyo
05-13-2001, 04:47 AM
I've noticed SNK did a half-assed job with their comboing system this year.

Certain things that couldn't combo before or had their comboability disabled in '99 came back in 2000. For example, Kim can do a dwn B, dwn A, QCB, HCF + K DM in 2000. He could do this in '98, but it was taken out in '99.

Terry can do dwn B, dwn A, QCF x 2 + K DM in 2000. This could not be done in '99... not sure about '98.

What I'm saying is that while SNK did add comboability for these DMs, the normals and specials that are used to combo into the DM haven't been changed in speed at all. In general everybody's DMs and normals seems to be just as slow as they were in '99 (save for a few exceptions such as Mai, Maxima, and Kyo) but yet their comboability has been increased in 2000.

Excuse me for rambling, but I'd like to conclude by instead of choosing to selectively increase the speed of the characters' DMs and/or normals, SNK just chose to increase the hit stun that characters experience so that certain uncomboable DMs could now connect. It appears that SNK really did rush this 2000 release... as that there are also a few glaring bugs out there and oversights with the comboability of *certain* strikers.

Shingo_Yabuki
05-13-2001, 05:05 AM
Yeah I know what you mean,I thought that Terry sucked untill I found out you can link his High Angle after a low A or B.That's one thing I couldn't understand about 99,why did they remove the comboability of some DMs?

hebretto
05-13-2001, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by Shingo_Yabuki:
<STRONG>Why did they remove the comboability of some DMs?</STRONG>

I guess to make the game more challenging,developing new skills and new tactics against the CPU and human opponenets.I just hated the backstep(back + AB)thing in 99

Talk about easy to combo Kyo's Jump C,Standing C,qcf + D,D(not in corner)combos in 2000 compared to 99 where the 2nd part of qcf + D,D can't

KOF2000 is a mix between KOF98 and KOF99 put together

[ May 13, 2001: Message edited by: hebretto ]

Moeru_Shin_Kyo
05-13-2001, 05:12 AM
I think they are just making it harder or something.

koolking
05-13-2001, 05:40 AM
Well Iie-kyo does have a point though they may have been just experimenting with it.

[ May 13, 2001: Message edited by: koolking ]

Moeru_Shin_Kyo
05-13-2001, 06:15 AM
Im not weird

Shingo_Yabuki
05-13-2001, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by hebretto:
<STRONG>I guess to make the game more challenging,developing new skills and new tactics against the CPU and human opponenets.I just hated the backstep(back + AB)thing in 99

Talk about easy to combo Kyo's Jump C,Standing C,qcf + D,D(not in corner)combos in 2000 compared to 99 where the 2nd part of qcf + D,D can't

KOF2000 is a mix between KOF98 and KOF99 put together

[ May 13, 2001: Message edited by: hebretto ]</STRONG>

Well it kinda did make it harder but was it realy necessary?I thought it was bad enough when they removed Ryo's hcf P combo starter but not being able to combo his Ryuko Ranbu?Also pisses me off that Ralf's Ralf Kick got changed,why?And where's Shingo's critical hits??!Yeah,I didn't like the back step thingee,it wasn't THAT useful imo.

NeoGML
05-13-2001, 04:21 PM
SNK was simply expanding the possibilities and improving characters. To make the characters more balanced. I think this game is nearly perfect. what a great game.

Muchiko
05-13-2001, 07:56 PM
No, basically, almost every DM in '98 got toned down to '99; well, everything got toned down in '99. For DM's in '99, their speed are evidently slower, thereby, losing their combo capabilities (Chin's, Kyo's, Terry's, Ryo's, Robert's, Takuma's, etc.). When they did this, most DM's become useless, so in 2000, they either brought the speed back or increase it even more (e.g. Yuri's DM combos off her Low A, Ryo's/Robert's RushDM combos, Kyo's Orochinagi retains '98 speed which combos off of hard normals). Not only speed that they increase, but also priority and invincibility.

So, no, the stun time for normals is not increased in 2000... only in CounterMode/ArmorMode.

snk_gakusei
05-13-2001, 08:35 PM
I just think the current trend in all video games is to make things more combo crazy. That's why people added strikers available at all times excep during a DM, to make combos longer. That's all there is to it, SNK was just following trend, making easy combos even easier.

Muchiko
05-14-2001, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by snk_gakusei:
<STRONG>I just think the current trend in all video games is to make things more combo crazy. That's why people added strikers available at all times excep during a DM, to make combos longer. That's all there is to it, SNK was just following trend, making easy combos even easier.</STRONG>

How about Garou:MOTW? It has less combo capabilities compared to its previous FF title.


As said, the KOF2000 DM combos are merely bringing '99 back to '98. Strikers is another matter, however.

hebretto
05-14-2001, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by Shingo_Yabuki:
<STRONG>Well it kinda did make it harder but was it realy necessary?I thought it was bad enough when they removed Ryo's hcf P combo starter but not being able to combo his Ryuko Ranbu?Also pisses me off that Ralf's Ralf Kick got changed,why?And where's Shingo's critical hits??!Yeah,I didn't like the back step thingee,it wasn't THAT useful imo.</STRONG>

Well the backstep thing was just hopeless.I think KOF99 was good since it reduced the characters' combo-bilities thus you would have to think harder to win rather than just fwd + C,hcf + C.Shingo's critical hits were too damaging against other players,especially if you got a counter hit as well

Iie-Kyo
05-15-2001, 06:27 AM
I guess I still didn't voice my point out clearly.

What I meant was the comboability of some DMs doesn't make sense. Some of these DMs did *NOT* have their speed increased, but yet somehow SNK made it so you can link it from a dwn b, dwn a combo.

Let's take a look at a combo that uses a special move: Shingo's QCF + P. From my battle experiences, it's still just as slow as it was in '99, but for some reason now dwn b, dwn A, qcf + P works! I could see the comboability in '98 (it was fricken fast back then) but I don't understand the comboability of it now, when its speed hasn't been increased nor the speed of his normals.

hebretto
05-15-2001, 06:51 AM
Well I noticed that Terry's High Angled Geyser's speed has been increased

As for Shingo though...I think that the qcf + A has slighty been increased in speed.But Iori's Crossover back + B,Crouching B,Close A.The Close A has been slowed down this year but that still comboed so maybe SNK did increase the hit stun for some moves but to find that out would take some time to figure out every single hit.And some moves has increased speed like Kyo's qcf + D,D/Orochinagi

Things that I noticed that now connects:

K' - Close C->forward + A/B(A version is faster)

Maxima - Close C->forward + A

Shingo - Close C->forward + B->qcfx2 + A/C

Whip - forward + A(repeat)command move

Leona - Close D->qcb,hcf + B/D or Crouching A->qcfx2 + A/C

Andy - his qcb + A->df + A juggle combo from his hcf + A/C in the corner

Robert - can connect his df + B _or_ forward + B from his light normals(A or B)

Kyo - Close C->qcf + D,D->Orochinagi

Kim - Crouching B->Crouching A->qcfx2 + B/D _or_ qcb,f + B/D

There are just so many changes in KOF2000

Iie-Kyo
05-15-2001, 10:33 PM
Exactly my point. Some of these new combos don't seem any faster. It seems for some of these new combos all SNK did was increase the hit stun to make them more comboable instead of fiddling with the speeds of the individual moves themselves.

Also, when your opponent gets hit when you're in Counter/Armor mode, there is an obvious amount of extra hit stun. Was this SNK's intention?

Muchiko
05-16-2001, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by Iie-Kyo:
<STRONG>Exactly my point. Some of these new combos don't seem any faster. It seems for some of these new combos all SNK did was increase the hit stun to make them more comboable instead of fiddling with the speeds of the individual moves themselves.
</STRONG>

No, I don't think so... all the moves/normals Hebretto posted were increased in speed. C-version Orochinagi retains its '98 speed, making it comboable after a hard normal again, e.g. Close/Low C. Leona's QCB-HCF and QCFx2 DM both increased in speed. K's DM and Kim's DM's are both increased, that's why they're comboable now. Same with Ryo's/Robert's/Takuma's RR. All of 'em... normals in 2000 don't do longer hit stuns, except some of the noticeable ones like Robert's Fwd+A overhead.

<STRONG>
Also, when your opponent gets hit when you're in Counter/Armor mode, there is an obvious amount of extra hit stun. Was this SNK's intention?</STRONG>

Of course, that would make the modes much more scary and useful than '99. CounterMode in '99 is so bland that only certain characters benefit from it... but in 2000, it's really good if you can land those jabs which can lead into DM combos with any char, like Kyo's 100% combo.

hebretto
05-16-2001, 05:28 AM
Well from I noticed,some moves has increased in speed and some has increased in hit stun.Leona's V-Slasher has increased speed,same with Robert's forward + B.Kim's down,down + B/D on Kim has a longer hit stun

Shingo_Yabuki
05-16-2001, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by hebretto:
<STRONG>Well the backstep thing was just hopeless.I think KOF99 was good since it reduced the characters' combo-bilities thus you would have to think harder to win rather than just fwd + C,hcf + C.Shingo's critical hits were too damaging against other players,especially if you got a counter hit as well</STRONG>

*L*Yeah and 2K is the complete opposite,combos are much easier no thanks to strikers,hell Kyo doesn't really need strikers if he does his infamous combo.

Muchiko
05-16-2001, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by hebretto:
<STRONG>Well from I noticed,some moves has increased in speed and some has increased in hit stun.Leona's V-Slasher has increased speed,same with Robert's forward + B.Kim's down,down + B/D on Kim has a longer hit stun</STRONG>

Kim's Stomp having longer hit stun? I don't know, maybe... but for sure the speed of it increases because now you can combo it after a jab... Kim's Close B (2hits), Stomp, HSKK DM is his easiest DM combo.

And yes, Robert's Fwd+B did increase in speed, that's why you can combo it after a jab... nothing to do with longer stun time.

And all of Leona's DM's are increased in speed... well, almost every DM's in 2000 were increased.

Iie-Kyo
05-17-2001, 12:35 AM
Could someone explain to me why K's C, Fwd + A, Chain Drive (S)DM combo works now? The hit stun LOOKS the same and the DM LOOKS just as slow but...

I guess looks aren't everything, eh?

hebretto
05-17-2001, 09:00 AM
The Chain Driver has been given extra speed in KOF2000,it's not as slow.

Iie-Kyo
05-19-2001, 01:39 AM
Again I am in the minority here by saying I actually liked '99 back hop thing. It's a boon for the few grabber characters there were in '99 (CLARK!). The back hop was simply way too fast for human opponents to react to. Take this:
Jump in A (land), bk AB, grab.

I don't really like 2000's restored back rolling system. In encourages cowardice (hence the reason why there's so many King players. Back rolling is one of their staple moves to test your patience.)

Muchiko
05-20-2001, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Iie-Kyo:
<STRONG>Again I am in the minority here by saying I actually liked '99 back hop thing. It's a boon for the few grabber characters there were in '99 (CLARK!). The back hop was simply way too fast for human opponents to react to. Take this:
Jump in A (land), bk AB, grab.

I don't really like 2000's restored back rolling system. In encourages cowardice (hence the reason why there's so many King players. Back rolling is one of their staple moves to test your patience.)</STRONG>

Well, you're not in the minority... I love the back dash. I thought 2000 wouldn't be as good as '99 if it doesn't have back dash. However, the back dash is even worst than back rolls for fireball/turtle characters; or keep-aways. I have no idea why SNK made a stupid move by making back rolls so long in range; Kasumi back roll goes almost full screen. Maybe it's there to escape pressure games or crossups, but there are enough anti-pressure options and back rolls only encourage turtling.

hebretto
05-20-2001, 07:41 AM
Here's the video of what I said before that Kim's Stomp(down,down + B/D)has more hit stun(that or his faster)

Against Shingo in the corner (http://katak.personal.ne.jp/mpeg2000/kim04b.mpg)

Against Kim in the corner (http://katak.personal.ne.jp/mpeg2000/kim04a.mpg)

Temporary freezing bug with Kim's stomp(down,down + B/D)against Kim if blocked (http://katak.personal.ne.jp/mpeg2000/kim06a.mpg)

This proves the temp freezing thing mentioned above (http://katak.personal.ne.jp/mpeg2000/kim06b.mpg)


Hope you guys haven't seen these movies,if you have I'm very sorry for have taken up your time downloading them(Bufa if you haven't seen these enjoy buddy)

[ May 20, 2001: Message edited by: hebretto ]

Bufa
05-20-2001, 07:52 AM
thanks an entire fricking bunch Hebretto. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

i was kinda irritated at how, in '99, you could follow Kim's Haki Kyaku (stomp) with a Hou'ou Kyaku DM, but not the SDM. (it works with Chang, because he's a large character.)

i'm still working on the close C -> Haki Kyaku -> Close C combo in KoF '99... is that possible?
and if it is, can you do another Haki Kyaku on the end of it?

hebretto
05-20-2001, 08:05 AM
I don't know what your on about with Kim's down,down + B/D into his SDM,I did it to Krizalid(the boss)few days ago

Hmm well I didn't even see that C into down,down + B/D then C again combo until today so I didn't have a chance yet.But I think Chang would be the only one you can do it to cause I managed to pull off this against Chang in KOF99(him in corner)

Crouching B->Crouching A->forward + A(1st hit)->qcf + B(try to delay it else it won't hit Chang)->Crouching A->forward + A->qcf + B _or_ qcb,f + B/D...50% damage if done with a DM

Against the others you can do a Far A after the qcf + B.It will combo,though not alot of damage

That combo would be easier to do in KOF2000,I was actaully surprised that I could even do it in 99

(Note to self,stop saying surprise,4th time I typed that on the board today)

[ May 20, 2001: Message edited by: hebretto ]

Iie-Kyo
05-20-2001, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Muchiko:
<STRONG>Well, you're not in the minority... I love the back dash. I thought 2000 wouldn't be as good as '99 if it doesn't have back dash. However, the back dash is even worst than back rolls for fireball/turtle characters; or keep-aways. I have no idea why SNK made a stupid move by making back rolls so long in range; Kasumi back roll goes almost full screen. Maybe it's there to escape pressure games or crossups, but there are enough anti-pressure options and back rolls only encourage turtling.</STRONG>

I wholeheartedly agree. They made the backrolls in 2000 too powerful. The length of the backroll in 2000 is the length of the AB Guard Cancel back roll in '98, which is totally ridiculous. Several of my friends were looking at Iori backrolling for the first time in 2000 and they could only say, "what the hell, that thing goes full screen!"

I hope Eolith is smart enough to either eliminate the backroll or reduce it to the effectiveness of KoF '98's backroll (which I believe was sufficient enough to do what it was intended to do, get out of pressure games *without* encouraging turtling).

Iie-Kyo
05-20-2001, 04:44 PM
hebretto -

Holy cow, I always wondered if the Stand C, dwn dwn + B, Stand C dwn dwn + B combo was possible. Can these be done in '99? I've seen a Chinese VCD video in which Kim does the stomp then the 1 hit Stand C and into the stomp again.

Or has been the hit stun increased in 2000 so that the max SDM would combo?

About the against Chang combo, I can do that. In fact I have a harder time doing it in 2000 because the general speed of the game has slowed down.

I did it on that Chinese Chang turtler/cheezer/coward at my arcade and he punched the machine after I did it on him a couple times, the second one resulting in a DM. Looks like the hours of practice at home really payed off! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Iie-Kyo
05-20-2001, 04:46 PM
Oh, one more thing hebretto, in that Kim freeze bug thing, the other Kim did a CD into a DM.

But was this a CD cancel or a regular CD? I couldn't tell.

Muchiko
05-20-2001, 05:20 PM
That Kim bug was there since '98. And the typical Kim combo is Jump QCF+B crossup, Low B, Close C, Stomp, Stomp cancel, Low B, Close C, Forward A, DM.... something like that, and the bug is highly used by HongKong's and Singapore's.

The stun time of the stomp in '99 is short, but then it increases in '00 again.

Iie-Kyo
05-20-2001, 05:53 PM
I knew about the Kim bug. I use it on my friends to show I spent way too much practicing. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

I meant the other one, the freeze bug where the other Kim gets stuck to the Kim who's stomping.

hebretto
05-21-2001, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by Iie-Kyo:
<STRONG>Oh, one more thing hebretto, in that Kim freeze bug thing, the other Kim did a CD into a DM.

But was this a CD cancel or a regular CD? I couldn't tell.</STRONG>

The Kim that was in the corner did a normal CD,not a block + CD

hebretto
05-24-2001, 06:07 AM
Is it me or does the knockback in KOF2000 is shorter than KOF99

What I mean is that say you hit your opponent in KOF99 with K's Standing C,they might go back say about 2cm but in KOF2000 the distance is shorter