Continuity question...

Alright, me and a friend are trying to figure out where Real Bout Fatal Fury 2 fits into SNK continuity, and if it does, where it would be placed in terms of the KOF storyline. I say it's a "dream match", while he says it goes between 96 and 97, and has found a page to follow that up with - http://i.am/kofkyok

Who's right?

RB2 has nothing to do with the fatal fury universe or the kof universe.Its a dream match of sorts thus didnt happen.Seeing as how wild ambition is the same,xiangfei has only made one official storyline appearence;kof 99.Rick and alfred have yet to appear in a story line game......

That's what I thought.

I don't necessarily buy that, Hidden Warrior.

I mean, if RB2 never happened, explain Xiangfe's unique interactions with the FF cast in KOF 99.

Wild Ambition? I don't think so. Wild Ambition is a dream match if any game is. A retelling of the original Fatal Fury story with Yamazaki, of all people, and Xiangfe in 3D?

RB2 happened, and SNK has never said otherwise to my knowledge. They wouldn't have introduced new characters in a 'dream match'.

RBFFS: Dominated mind (playstation) had a storyline and it had alfred in it (I don't think Xianfsomething or Rick are in it..it's a remake of RB:special)

It took place after the "death" of Geese with White taking over Geese's crime empire and mind-controlling Billy or something. Did that help?

Xiangfei's reactions in KOF99?What did you expect snk to do?Nothing with her?OFacourse she would have interaction with others such as the fatal fury cast.If this is the basis for your defense about RB2 being part of snk continuity then you've been misled.The last fatal fury tournament that took place prior to mark of the wolves is real bout.Any and all inbetween never happened and were created so fans could play as their favorites in a huge game like RBS and RB2.Have you ever read the story for RBS and RB2?There is none;there is no story.Geese didnt come back to life in RB2;that never happened.Geese ap[peared in kof 96 after snk released real bout because Real bout 1 took place in 1998 while kof 96 took place 1996.Think about it.

[ May 08, 2001: Message edited by: HIDDEN WARRIOR ]

Hidden Warrior:

>>Xiangfei's reactions in KOF99?What did you expect snk to do?Nothing with her?OFacourse she would have interaction with others such as the fatal fury cast.<<

But why the FF cast in particular? If her first OFFICIAL appearance in the KOF universe is KOF '99, why would she interract with the FF characters as though she knew them already? There's nothing in her KOF ending to indicate that she has ANYTHING to do with the FF characters. If I turn off the knowledge in my head that she appeared in an FF game prior to KOF 99, those interactions wouldn't make any sense to me as they're not elaborated on in the framework of the game.

So, unless there's another reason for her interracting with the FF characters, that tells me that RB2 is not a dream match since it's the first time those characters met, and they have a prior history to draw from in helping to define her character.

>>If this is the basis for your defense about RB2 being part of snk continuity then you've been misled.The last fatal fury tournament that took place prior to mark of the wolves is real bout.Any and all inbetween never happened and were created so fans could play as their favorites in a huge game like RBS and RB2.<<

How could I look forward to playing Xiangfe if she never existed before RB2? I think the above logic could be applied to RBS, although I think the reintroduction of Krauser to an FF game shouldn't be treated as a 'dream match', but RB2 introduced 2 brand new characters, one of which has made the crossover to KOF '99. Not only has she made the crossover, but she's shown her history with the FF characters in 'that other game', too.

>>but when you introHave you ever read the story for RBS and RB2?There is none;there is no story.<<

Couldn't RBS just be a tournament? Does there HAVE to be a 'story' in every game?

>>Geese didnt come back to life in RB2;that never happened.<<

I actually like your version of the story more. I'd rather Geese DIDN'T return to life. That would make more sense and be a more satisfying story overall. But I just can't buy that RB2 is a 'dream match' because that was already done in the prior game (by your reasoning, which I very respectfully do not agree with). Why do ANOTHER dream match with 2 brand new characters we've never seen anywhere before?

I know the storyline in RB2 is nonexistent. I know that Geese's return should seem more ballyhooed, rather than not being addressed at all in the storyline (in fact, I hate that about RB2). I know all of this.

But I just don't buy that RB2 didn't happen in the continuity because of what I've said.

>>Geese ap[peared in kof 96 after snk released real bout because Real bout 1 took place in 1998 while kof 96 took place 1996.Think about it.<<

Now THIS I WHOLEHARTEDLY agree with. I've always believed that even though Real Bout Fatal Fury came out before KOF '96 it happens AFTER KOF '96. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. Billy's appearance in the boss team's end in KOF '96 in his RB threads (heretofore unseen in KOF), Geese's scheming and the way they show Terry flash onto the screen in the end implies to me that Real Bout, and Geese's death, are forthcoming.

[Edit-made minor rewording change in the beginning of my third paragraph]

[ May 08, 2001: Message edited by: Taiso ]

yeah, but Geese also is in the special teams' ending in KOF'97.

Iori:

Hidden Warrior's contention is that Real Bout Fatal Fury takes place in '98, which is after KOF '97. Therefore, Geese could still be in the special team's ending and it wouldn't hurt continuity.

I don't even know that SNK pays as much attention to the continuity as we fans do, to be honest:P!

I mean, I've never read anything suggesting that RB takes place after KOF '97 (and believe me, I've read a LOT of SNK related material, both canon and non-canon), but I've never read anything that says otherwise, either. It seems like SNK just throws games at us sometimes without paying attention to the storyline inconsistencies and expects us to pick up the pieces> !

Oh well. At least it's fun and intriguing to talk about.

to TAISO:your first and second questions are answered in my previous reply.Why the fatal fury cast in particular?Why not is the better question,while RB2 may not have a story,the charecters do.So even though RB2 never happened her story exists in the snk universe but not in the snk continuity.Im not sure how best to explian what I just said.But theres a line between the two.Rick is a good example.He exists in the snk universe but not in the snk continuity.Does any of this make sense?Xiangfei interacts with the fatal fury cast because the fans expect snk to do so.Even though RB2 never happened,fans want some connection,some effort put in.Imagine if she had no interaction with the fatal fury cast.She would be lame and snk would seem lazy and fans would notice and say"hey how come she doesnt say anything to terry or mai?!".SNK doesnt want to hear that.You wrote"If I turn off the knowledge in my head that she appeared in an FF game prior to KOF 99, those interactions wouldn't make any sense to me as they're not elaborated on in the framework of the game.".Trying to make sense of that is like trying to make sense of "why didnt the AOF charecters age when they entered kof 94".Its ludicrous to try to explain it to everybodies satisfaction.Dont ask why,ask why not.


you wrote,"So, unless there's another reason for her interracting with the FF characters, that tells me that RB2 is not a dream match since it's the first time those characters met, and they have a prior history to draw from in helping to define her character.".Real bout 1 is the last fatal fury tournament.10 years later MOTW takes place(year:2008 because real bout is in 1998).There is no fatal fury that takes place between that time;just kof tournaments(and yes im aware that realbout 1 was a kof tournament;it was the real kof 98 because kof 98 is a dreammatch).

you wrote"How could I have been a fan of Xiangfe's if she never existed before RB2? ".Answer:because you exist in the real world and not in the snk universe.That was an absurd question.As i've said:RB2 never happened but the charecters have a story but not the game itself.Theres a huge difference.

you wrote"Couldn't RBS just be a tournament? Does there HAVE to be a 'story' in every game?".Absolutuely it is nessasary.Its the ONLY way to tell if the game is part of snk continuity.Hre is a rundown on all games outside the snk continuity:
1)fatal fury special(has no story thus geese really returns in fatal fury 3;watch there expression in FF3 to see what I mean when geese is mentioned or seen)
2)Real bout fatal fury special(no story;
the next "special" in the series bringing back old favorites just like the previous did.Even has a dream match now called a nightmare match)
3)real bout fatal fury 2(RBS was loved so much that snk made another but still no story)
4)real bout fatal fury special dominated minds(has a story but...highly debated to be part of the snk continuity;you make the call)
5)fatal fury wild ambition(a psuedo remake of fatal fury 1;no story or at least not a new one....)
6)king of fighters 98(dreammatch never ends;duh!)
7)samurai shodown rpg(altered story:although it adds to the story,many aspects are different in its future games(SS3 and SS4) that shows that its not part of the snk
continuity)
8)Athena:awakening from the ordinary life(I havent read enough about it to make a desision;your call)
9)king of fighters kyo(definitly 100% not part of the snk continuity)
10)capcom vs. snk(not part of either companies continuity)
11)snk vs. capcom match of the millenium(a nice neogeo pocket game but not part of either companies continuity)
12)gal fighters(not part of snk continuity)
13)quiz king of fighters(same as above)
14)snk vs. capcom cardfighters clash(same as above)
15)king of fighters battle de paradise(same as above)

you wrote"I actually like your version of the story more. I'd rather Geese DIDN'T return to life. That would make more sense and be a more satisfying story overall. But I just can't buy that RB2 is a 'dream match' because that was already done in the prior game (by your reasoning, which I very respectfully do not agree with). Why do ANOTHER dream match with 2 brand new characters we've never seen anywhere before?".Once again I ask you,why not?Why not add to the pot and have the previous cast meet the new charecters(xiangfei,rick,alfred)?Fans wouldnt mind.In fact they will want it.How can you ask such a question?The new cast have their stories but the game itself does not.

you wrote"I know the storyline in RB2 is nonexistent. I know that Geese's return should seem more ballyhooed, rather than not being addressed at all in the storyline (in fact, I hate that about RB2). I know all of this.

But I just don't buy that RB2 didn't happen in the continuity because of what I've said.".

to me it sounds like your in denial.I mean no disrespect TAISO but thats what it sounds like.

you wrote"Now THIS I WHOLEHARTEDLY agree with. I've always believed that even though Real Bout Fatal Fury came out before KOF '96 it happens AFTER KOF '96. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. Billy's appearance in the boss team's end in KOF '96 in his RB threads (heretofore unseen in KOF), Geese's scheming and the way they show Terry flash onto the screen in the end implies to me that Real Bout, and Geese's death, are forthcoming. "

but if you believe that then the only way that geese is alive in RBS,RBSdm,and RB2 is because they took place after kof 96 but before real bout 1.Which sounds crazier;my theory,thus im correct,or your theory,thus your correct?I believe my theory is more plausible and the only flaws it has is I cant explain the age difference in kof94 between the FF and AOF charecters which should have been great nor can I explain why snk has desided not to age the kof charecters(nobody is older then when they were in kof96)

to your second reply:Its the subleties TAISO.SNK wont give answers all the time.Sometimes you got to get deep into them to figure thing out.Remember neon genesis evangelion?That anime is like you have to figure everything out for yourself.They wont tell you point blank the answer.SNK is like that sometimes.

[ May 08, 2001: Message edited by: HIDDEN WARRIOR ]

Hidden Warrior:

>>your first and second questions are answered in my previous reply.Why the fatal fury cast in particular?Why not is the better question,<<

Why not is because programmers usually don't have the time to waste on that type of thing unless it means something in a storyline context. If those animations weren't specifically included to progress an already existing series of relationships they would not have been included. Xiangfe has lost to one of them in the past, knows they're all friends and is acting rude towards them because of her competitive nature and immaturity.

To say something like 'why not?' is an attempt to deflate logic with the absence of the same. It's not fair to the discussion and has no place in legitimate debates where the nature of a conversation is to gain a greater mutual understanding of a given point of contention. If your aim is to convince me, you're going to have to do it without the absence of logic. If your aim is to ARGUE with me, then this discussion has reached a dead end. If you feel defensive about any of what I've said, relax. We're having a friendly debate, right?

>>while RB2 may not have a story,the charecters do.So even though RB2 never happened her story exists in the snk universe but not in the snk continuity.<<

Video game continuity of this nature is not presented outside of the video game. I've read the writeups that explain the different teams' involvements in the coming KOF tournaments (Neo Geo Freak, an official SNK publication, was good about having these in their pages MONTHS before the games actually came out), but when characters have onscreen interaction with other characters, that's because their aquaintances have been solidified in prior installments. EXCEPT, of course, when the characters are meeting for the first time. In which case, somebody's cinema ending screens GENERALLY explain the relationships. The only exception to this that I know of is Robert and Kensou, who both speak to each other in Kansai dialect in their pre-fight animations in a couple of the KOFs, which is an inside cultural joke to Japanese players.

>>Im not sure how best to explian what I just said.But theres a line between the two.Rick is a good example.He exists in the snk universe but not in the snk continuity.Does any of this make sense?<<

It makes sense, but I don't buy it in this case. Rick's out there somewhere because SNK wouldn't introduce new characters in a non continuity game of an existing series.

>>Xiangfei interacts with the fatal fury cast because the fans expect snk to do so.Even though RB2 never happened,fans want some connection,some effort put in.<<

Xiangfe doesn't rank high enough on any of the popularity polls that I saw in Neo Geo Freak to justify such 'fan service'. They could have done other things that would have made more sense if their sole aim was to please fans.

>>Imagine if she had no interaction with the fatal fury cast.She would be lame and snk would seem lazy and fans would notice and say"hey how come she doesnt say anything to terry or mai?!".<<

Yeah, especially since she knows the characters from RB2.

And why not have her interact with ANYBODY if they wanted her to do funny things before a fight. She drools at Kensou's, er, meatpie before they fight because she's hungry. That animation is self explanatory. But to taunt the FF cast solely? Unless they'd met before, this would not make sense. Why not have her taunt the Ryuko team or the Ikari team? Because she's met the FF cast in a different tournament, that's why. She has a past with them.

>>SNK doesnt want to hear that.You wrote"If I turn off the knowledge in my head that she appeared in an FF game prior to KOF 99, those interactions wouldn't make any sense to me as they're not elaborated on in the framework of the game.".Trying to make sense of that is like trying to make sense of "why didnt the AOF charecters age when they entered kof 94".<<

The inconsistencies between AOF and FF timelines are a much more complicated issue than determining Xiangfe's place in KOF. It's hardly the same thing.

>>Its ludicrous to try to explain it to everybodies satisfaction.Dont ask why,ask why not.<<

Except that the nature of these discussions is specifically TO ask 'why'. If the question in this thread was 'why not' the conversation wouldn't exist. When trying to establish continuity, the question of 'why not' has no validity because it doesn't attempt to solve the conundrum at all.

>>you wrote,"So, unless there's another reason for her interracting with the FF characters, that tells me that RB2 is not a dream match since it's the first time those characters met, and they have a prior history to draw from in helping to define her character.".Real bout 1 is the last fatal fury tournament.10 years later MOTW takes place(year:2008 because real bout is in 1998).There is no fatal fury that takes place between that time;just kof tournaments(and yes im aware that realbout 1 was a kof tournament;it was the real kof 98 because kof 98 is a dreammatch).<<

Your evidence and thinking on FF says so, mine says otherwise. I'm not really even trying to change your mind or be informative at this point. You have a right to view the continuity however you think based on your research. I don't buy your reasoning so I can't agree with you.

>>you wrote"How could I have been a fan of Xiangfe's if she never existed before RB2? ".Answer:because you exist in the real world and not in the snk universe.That was an absurd question.<<

So I'm absurd now, am I? Funny, I thought we were having a conversation about video games. I'm disappointed that you're deigning to look down on my posts now. I won't lie, that hurts my feelings. I've treated you respectfully. Why insult me like that? Because I don't agree with you? Isn't that a rather small kind of thinking for someone as intelligent as you to display?

Let me elaborate on my question, because either you didn't understand it or I didn't word it appropriately. You said that RBS and RB2 were 'dream matches' designed to get all of these characters into one game for the fans' enjoyment. What I'm asking is why should I look forward to Xiangfe being part of a 'dream match' if she wasn't a character selectable in a prior game?

>>As i've said:RB2 never happened but the charecters have a story but not the game itself.Theres a huge difference.<<

Why introduce brand new characters in a dream match? You still haven't answered that question to my satisfaction. For variety's sake? Why not just mix up the gameplay and give the existing characters new moves and leave it at that? Most people that play the game are by and large going to say 'Ah, it's just RBS with two new characters' anyway. Me and you know the differences, but average game player doesn't. There are questions on this board all the time: which Real Bout should I get? Only after being properly educated do 'newcomers' (heh, I kinda like that) have an understanding of what to buy.

And in case you bring up Alfred as a third character, I'll simply add that you can't play Alfred in RB2 unless you take advantage of Mod Switch settings, so I'm not counting him in the equation of this point. Of course, if I did it would only help my argument all the more because now there's THREE new characters added to the continuity.

>>you wrote"Couldn't RBS just be a tournament? Does there HAVE to be a 'story' in every game?".Absolutuely it is nessasary.<<

That's conventional logic based only on what we've seen before and doesn't break any new ground in determining anything. It's preprogrammed thought. Just because these games have had a story doesn't mean they always HAVE to. I'd prefer if they had stories and am admittedly disappointed in RBS and RB2 having none, but I'm trying to think in broader terms than only in what we've seen before. Thinking in broader terms seems to be the only way to put any order to this mess as it is.

I snipped your non continuity games not because I don't want to address them but because it's academic (that's not an insult) and doesn't help to convince me.

>>you wrote"I actually like your version of the story more. I'd rather Geese DIDN'T return to life. That would make more sense and be a more satisfying story overall. But I just can't buy that RB2 is a 'dream match' because that was already done in the prior game (by your reasoning, which I very respectfully do not agree with). Why do ANOTHER dream match with 2 brand new characters we've never seen anywhere before?".Once again I ask you,why not?<<

Addressed above, for reference and because I felt compelled to answer the question of 'why not' again.

>>Why not add to the pot and have the previous cast meet the new charecters(xiangfei,rick,alfred)?Fans wouldnt mind.In fact they will want it.How can you ask such a question?<<

I ask such a question because fans will play the next game in the series whether it has new characters or not. Adding new characters to the mix was done to introduce them to that universe and storyline.

>>The new cast have their stories but the game itself does not.

you wrote"I know the storyline in RB2 is nonexistent. I know that Geese's return should seem more ballyhooed, rather than not being addressed at all in the storyline (in fact, I hate that about RB2). I know all of this.

But I just don't buy that RB2 didn't happen in the continuity because of what I've said.".

to me it sounds like your in denial.I mean no disrespect TAISO but thats what it sounds like.<<

I'm sorry you think that. I feel I've spoken intelligently and deliberately enough that I've projected a sense of anything BUT denial. No disrespect intended back, but attributing mannerisms to a debator that has adequately presented his case, even if you disagree with it due to your own findings, is unfair.

>>you wrote"Now THIS I WHOLEHARTEDLY agree with. I've always believed that even though Real Bout Fatal Fury came out before KOF '96 it happens AFTER KOF '96. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. Billy's appearance in the boss team's end in KOF '96 in his RB threads (heretofore unseen in KOF), Geese's scheming and the way they show Terry flash onto the screen in the end implies to me that Real Bout, and Geese's death, are forthcoming. "

but if you believe that then the only way that geese is alive in RBS,RBSdm,and RB2 is because they took place after kof 96 but before real bout 1.Which sounds crazier;<<

That does sound crazy, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying this:

KOF '96
KOF '97
RBFF
RBS
RB2

The actual time between these games is another point that could be debated, but nevertheless that's how I feel the continuity goes based on my findings. I would include KOF' 99 simply for framing references, but I don't think it's important to go that far. I also think it's opening up another can of worms .

>>my theory,thus im correct,or your theory,thus your correct?I believe my theory is more plausible and the only flaws it has is I cant explain the age difference in kof94 between the FF and AOF charecters<<

I agree that the age difference is a true conundrum. But your absence of logic (the 'why not' question) gives your argument suspect foundation, which is why I won't give it any more credence. In a forum where you're trying to put order to chaos, you can not ask 'why not'. That defeats the purpose of establishing the forum.

I recognize that you're trying to put order to the SNK continuity by saying 'these games don't exist in the storyline', and I have no problem with you saying that. I just don't agree with your 'why' of it all. Until I do agree, I'll be confident in my own reasoning.

>>which should have been great nor can I explain why snk has desided not to age the kof charecters(nobody is older then when they were in kof96)<<

Yeah...I think that's comic book logic at work there .

>>to your second reply:Its the subleties TAISO.SNK wont give answers all the time.Sometimes you got to get deep into them to figure thing out.<<

And I've done that with everything I can get my hands on pertaining to the subject matter over the years. Hence my exhaustive posting here.

>>Remember neon genesis evangelion?That anime is like you have to figure everything out for yourself.They wont tell you point blank the answer.SNK is like that sometimes.<<

And we've both found our answers. Let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree. Our wheels will just keep spinning in the mud if we go any further.

I'll even give you the last word on this subject without a fight. At least recognize that we aren't going to get any further in this .

JIrish: You have my sincerest apologies for not answering your email. Finals got in the way.

Here's how I see it. I can explain this all if anyone's interested.

1980:
Art of Fighting

1981:
Art of Fighting 2

1991:
Fatal Fury

1992:
Fatal Fury 2

1993:
Real Bout Fatal Fury 2: The Newcomers

1994:
The King of Fighters '94
Fatal Fury 3: Road to the Final Victory

1995:
The King of Fighters '95

1996:
Art of Fighting 3
The King of Fighters '96

1997:
The King of Fighters '97

1998:
Real Bout Fatal Fury

1999:
The King of Fighters '99

2000:
The King of Fighters '00

2008:
Garou: Mark of the Wolves

to TAISO:first and foremost let me apologize for any misunderstandings.When I called your question absurd I in no way meant that you are absurd.Quite the opposite actually.Your logical and fun to talk/debate with.I am sorry if I disrespected you in anyway.

Let me also say that your right about the why not question...some what.It is not the best way to convince anybody but I vehementaly insist that its a better question then some that your asking and I felt no better way to express it then ask why not.

on to your first two paragraphs.I disagree.The programmers are from snk meaning their willing to give the charecters alot of personality.Little animation here and there.But not because their is some overwhelming role in the game connecting it to RB2.One of the reasons why we love snk over capcom is because of these little animations that we all enjoy.Animation of that kind doesnt neccasarilly imply something xiangfei between RB2 and kof99.She is supposed to know the fatal fury cast.Xiangfei has a story in RB2 as all snk charecters have a story.Part of that story is obviously she knows most of the fatal fury cast.I believe she is from the southtown chinatown area like lee pai long.Ofcourse she would know terry and the gang.But it is no basis to say that she first met them in RB2.

you wrote,"It makes sense, but I don't buy it in this case. Rick's out there somewhere because SNK wouldn't introduce new characters in a non continuity game of an existing series."

Then explain toji and tsugumi of wild ambition?What about white of dominated minds or lao of fatal fury first contact?Its not an uncommon practise like you think.

you wrote,"Xiangfe doesn't rank high enough on any of the popularity polls that I saw in Neo Geo Freak to justify such 'fan service'. They could have done other things that would have made more sense if their sole aim was to please fans."

In a poll of all snk charecters,xiangfei wouldnt rank.In a fatal fury only poll xiangfei would make it to the top 15 most popular easily.She is much more popular then rick,alfred,white or lao.She is the newest most popular fatal fury charecter snk had before MOTW.Heres her resume.
RB2
KOF99
KOF2K(striker only)
fatal fury first contact
fatal fury wild ambition

not bad for a newbie snk charecter no?She's a little more popular then you think.

you wrote,"And why not have her interact with ANYBODY if they wanted her to do funny things before a fight. She drools at Kensou's, er, meatpie before they fight because she's hungry. That animation is self explanatory. But to taunt the FF cast solely? Unless they'd met before, this would not make sense. Why not have her taunt the Ryuko team or the Ikari team? Because she's met the FF cast in a different tournament, that's why. She has a past with them."

Ofcourse she would have interaction from the fatal fury cast.Why?Because she too is a fatal fury charecter.Simple as that.And just because of that the fans expect some interaction with terry and the gang.Fans would think snk is lazy if they dont pay attention to detail like that.But in no way does this imply that xiangfei knew terry and the gang prior to kof99.Your defense has yet to convince me.

you wrote,"Your evidence and thinking on FF says so, mine says otherwise. I'm not really even trying to change your mind or be informative at this point. You have a right to view the continuity however you think based on your research. I don't buy your reasoning so I can't agree with you. "

So be it.As long as you here me out.jeez....look how long our posts are*looks all the way down the page*.WE ROCK!WOOHOO!!

You wrote,"So I'm absurd now, am I? Funny, I thought we were having a conversation about video games. I'm disappointed that you're deigning to look down on my posts now. I won't lie, that hurts my feelings. I've treated you respectfully. Why insult me like that? Because I don't agree with you? Isn't that a rather small kind of thinking for someone as intelligent as you to display?

Once again im sorry.I never intended it to sound like that.

you wrote,"Let me elaborate on my question, because either you didn't understand it or I didn't word it appropriately. You said that RBS and RB2 were 'dream matches' designed to get all of these characters into one game for the fans' enjoyment. What I'm asking is why should I look forward to Xiangfe being part of a 'dream match' if she wasn't a character selectable in a prior game?"

There are many reasons I could give.Perhaps snk thought a new charecter or two would spice the real bout series up.Perhaps they desided that the remaining cast of old-school charecters(axel,jubei,raiden,hwa jai,richard,michael max)would not be enough to sell the next real bout.So thus they desided on new charecters.Theres no clear cut answer to this unless snk themselves answers.I apologize for not understanding your question previously.

you wrote,"Why introduce brand new characters in a dream match? You still haven't answered that question to my satisfaction. For variety's sake? Why not just mix up the gameplay and give the existing characters new moves and leave it at that? Most people that play the game are by and large going to say 'Ah, it's just RBS with two new characters' anyway. Me and you know the differences, but average game player doesn't. There are questions on this board all the time: which Real Bout should I get? Only after being properly educated do 'newcomers' (heh, I kinda like that) have an understanding of what to buy. "

Because its a good idea.Because new charecters are the life blood of fighting games.Are those answers sufficiant?Its always a good idea to bring in new blood whether it be a game with a continuity or one without a continuity.Its irrelevent.Whatever sells the game sells the game.

you wrote,"And in case you bring up Alfred as a third character, I'll simply add that you can't play Alfred in RB2 unless you take advantage of Mod Switch settings, so I'm not counting him in the equation of this point. Of course, if I did it would only help my argument all the more because now there's THREE new characters added to the continuity."

1,2 or 3 new charecters is irrelevent.Alfred is just another snk charecter yet to be introduced into the snk continuity.On the flip side of the same coin,adding alfred into the equation only adds another charecter that cannot be proven to exist outside RB2(and no,strikers dont count).The cup is half empty.....
By the way,you can play as alfred in RB2?!COOL!didnt know that!

you wrote"That's conventional logic based only on what we've seen before and doesn't break any new ground in determining anything. It's preprogrammed thought. Just because these games have had a story doesn't mean they always HAVE to. I'd prefer if they had stories and am admittedly disappointed in RBS and RB2 having none, but I'm trying to think in broader terms than only in what we've seen before. Thinking in broader terms seems to be the only way to put any order to this mess as it is."

Its true that a game wont always have a story.Thats what dreammatches are for.A dreammatch is best summed up as a game that puts together a large bulk of the roster without a story to interfere with some charecters being there(geese was still dead in fatal fury special and was also still dead in RB2).

You wrote"I ask such a question because fans will play the next game in the series whether it has new characters or not. Adding new characters to the mix was done to introduce them to that universe and storyline."

yes it did introduce them to the universe;the snk universe but not in its continuity.And yes it did introduce their individual stories but that is all.

you wrote"I'm sorry you think that. I feel I've spoken intelligently and deliberately enough that I've projected a sense of anything BUT denial. No disrespect intended back, but attributing mannerisms to a debator that has adequately presented his case, even if you disagree with it due to your own findings, is unfair."

then I take it back.Sorry about that.*gives TAISO some mochi*

you wrote"That does sound crazy, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying this:

KOF '96
KOF '97
RBFF
RBS
RB2

But........geese is dead.....thats the biggest flaw in your theory......

you wrote"I recognize that you're trying to put order to the SNK continuity by saying 'these games don't exist in the storyline', and I have no problem with you saying that. I just don't agree with your 'why' of it all. Until I do agree, I'll be confident in my own reasoning"

so be it.

you wrote"Yeah...I think that's comic book logic at work there "

I completely agree there!

you wrote"I'll even give you the last word on this subject without a fight. At least recognize that we aren't going to get any further in this . "

your very kind and humble for giving me that honor.Next debate i'll give you last words.Its the honorable thing to do.And yes I agree any further posting would be like stepping on my own toes.OUCH!

What can I say TAISO?IM A PSYCHO SNK FANATIC!I NEED HELP!I'VE GONE CUKOO FOR SNK!LOCK ME UP!BWAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAA!

bottom line:good debate.

Thank you all for these replies, folks. This is certainly a lot to think about for some mixed-up fan fiction writer. If I weren't planning on doing a couple Fatal Fury fics based on the games and in a similar chronological order to how I'm writing my KOF fics, I probably wouldn't be asking this in the first place.

Now, Neo Rasa, the one question I have regarding your list is why place Real Bout 2 in 1993? To the best of my (limited) knowledge, placing that game there would mean the Fatal Fury crew would have picked up a LOT of new techniques, and then forgotten them by the time KOF '94 rolled around. Also, I'm assuming placing the Art of Fighting games in the 80's was a typo. Otherwise, how did Ryo, Robert, Takuma, King etc. not even so much as age in that decades time?

BTW, about that site I had posted. Has anybody been able to open that? I still can't.

Again, thank you Hidden Warrior, Neo Rasa, Taiso and LLJ.

JIrish: Well, that's something I meant to mention. The only REAL continuity error in the AoF~FF~KoF crossover is the ages of the AoF characters. I think they weren't aged simply because they were extremely established and popular characters who were already getting a visual makeover for King of Fighters '94.

Before I go into this more I just want to say that I know my version of the saga isn't perfect, but IMO it has the least discontinuities in it.

Now the true ending for Art of Fighting 2 can only be reached by beating it with Ryo Sakazaki without losing a round so that you can fight Geese Howard at the end. Here he is very young, has long hair, and is in a business suit. After the ending, Geese leaves and mentions how he'll have to kill Jeff Bogard himself. Fatal Fury 1, which is in 1991, takes place ten years after Jeff Bogard's death, so the first two Art of Fighting games HAVE to take place ten years earlier.

Now, Real Bout Fatal Fury 2 is a tough one to place ANYWHERE in the overall plot. I personally discounted it as a dreammatch style game like KoF'98, Real Bout Special, etc., however from what I'm reading here I think it does have some place in the continuity.

Now, assuming it is supposed to be in the game continuity, Geese Howard must be alive, so it has be before 1998. With Krauser at the head of the tournament it has to be while he still controlled it, which would be 1992~1993. I propose that Real Bout Fatal Fury 2 is KoF'93.

Character ages? Again, Li Xiangfei is pretty popular, so like the AoF characters I think they wanted to keep her look/age/etc. the same so avoid confusion. Also, because of the way the rest of the cast acts I can picture the events in RBFF2 taking place right before FF3. Also, the characters' 'forgetting' and relearning special moves and such isn't relevant (unfortunately ) because you have to take into account that they're not going to make the gameplay take a major step backwards JUST to fully satisfy the storyline.

Neo Rasa:

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but any character can get to Geese Howard, and not just Ryo.

The only criteria for getting to Geese is to make sure that you don't record a loss as you advance through the game. In other words, you can't have three rounds in any one match. You must either win both rounds or lose both and then choose to continue (which for some reason doesn't affect the opportunity).

But once you win the first round, you MUST win the second or else you'll be fighting Mr. Big at the end. I don't know if you can win the first round then lose the next two and still be able to advance to Geese on the continue option, though.

(Edited to add the following)

Oh, by the way:

SANHYAKUMEGA SHOCK!!! NEO-GEO!!!

[ May 09, 2001: Message edited by: Taiso ]

damn- you guys know your shit. i've learned
more about fatal fury (my fave. video game series) from this thread than i have from reading every manual, game zine and ff/snk
comic. thanks- i think.

Yeah me too... I originally thought that RBS was real and RB2 was the dream match.... But that maybe different now... I was thinking about it earlier, and I thought: "Maybe RBS is SNK's version of the Anime?" They have a lot in common, with Terry getting beat by Krauser and them beating him later on.... But, I don't know what to think now.....*Sigh* Thanks guys....

to TAISO:still mad at me?not accepted my apologies? friends?

Hidden Warrior:

Friends?

Us?

Hell yeah!

*consumes mochi*

I didn't want to respond to anything you said because I felt that wouldn't have been giving you the last word

But since you asked:

We cool <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">.

[ May 09, 2001: Message edited by: Taiso ]

YAY! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Taiso: I'm aware, what I mean by the true ending is, say, you can beat Mortal Kombat 1 with ANY character, but Liu Kang's the one who 'officially' beat him, etc. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Rain: RBS actually IS a partial tribute to the anime styled characters. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Also, RBS is defintely a dreammatch, it's on top of being a tribute to the animes per se, it's also a remake/upgrade of Fatal Fury Special! (hence Real Bout Fatal Fury Special, because Real Bout is what the Fatal Fury series was originall going to be called, that's why you see so many Real Bout advertisements, stores, etc. in the first Fatal Fury games but not in the next few).

Neo Rasa:

Okay. I misread your comments. I thought you were saying...

...well, you know <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">.

Neo Rasa:

Ahhhh... you know I did see those Real Bout signs and wondered for a bit.... So RBS IS a dream match then? Cool. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

o.k., shit.... so what fatal fury games DID
happen, in youse guyz' opinionz? btw, was
the idea and realization of kim's sons born
in the anime, or were they already mentioned
prior to it's release?