Joe Striker- Let's have a real, no flame discussion

AcidicEnema · Apr 21, 2001

Vote: Is Joe Striker cheap?

Ignoring argument's over the word cheap, let's just define it in this case as 'overpowered and severely unbalanced, to the extent of being gamebreaking'.

Could we please have a civil, no flames, no caps vote with a brief explanation beside your vote explaining why you voted such.

My vote: Yes, unfortunately.

Why? : Joe striker makes it too easy for certain characters (Clark, Ralf, K' and Iori come to mind immediately) to kill an opposing character outright using around 1-2 striker bombs and around 2 super bars. That seems like a lot of resources when you put it down on paper, and the standard argument against this is " Aha, but by using so many of your Striker bombs to kill one character, I will destroy with my striker advantage with my other 2 characters".

However, consider:

- charging up super bars is ridiculously easy in KOF 2K. A bit of Iori rush games can get you up to level 3 pronto. So meter is really a non-issue.
- When meter is a non-issue, striker regeneration is that much easier. What? You say that a taunt would leave a Joe-Striker user vulnerable enough for you to punish him big time? I say this:

As long as I want to get back my striker bombs, I can do so at minimal cost, at very most, 20% life + 2 super meters can get me back the 2 striker bombs required to kill a fresh character. Remember- I can taunt and get away relatively unscatched when you are

1) throwing fireballs
2) doing CDs
3) playing footsie

That means, if you want to make sure I do not regenerate Striker bombs, you have to stop throwing fireballs (for King, Takuma, K', Athena, and to a lesser extent, Iori, this kills a big part of their game strategy), stop doing jump CDs, and stop poking. You would be reduced to trying to jump in an combo all the time (which without jumps CDs to claim air space is hard to do efficiently)- a very bad gameplan.

Most people wouldn't even bother with that. They just play like normal, hoping that they can kill their opponent before he can regenerate Joes. I can tell you quite confidently that when a person just has to watch out for the right moment to press one-button (start), regenerating Joes in normal game conditions is childishly easy.

Conclusion: Joe striker is too good simply because it is so easy to regenerate Striker bombs.

koolking · Apr 21, 2001

Think about it really Joe is cheap characters that can use joe
Clark
Ralph
Iori
Kyo
Kim
Leona
Shingo
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Nasakenai

Yojimbo · Apr 21, 2001

Lets face it grabbing people off the ground with strikers must be a bug.

Abusing a bug is cheap period.

The way I hear it people in Mexico are using "Shermie Striker" instead of Joe now.

If I ever get beaten by a Joe Striker user its always because of a bug not that they are better than me.Most hardcore Kof players don't use Joe striker because of whatever reasons in my area.

If you really want to limit Joe striker Ralf/clark super abuse just pick Xiangfi striker.That really pisses them off.

Iie-Kyo · Apr 21, 2001

Agreed, striker bombs can be easily regenerated but I must argue.

If an opponent will do nothing but fireball all day and play a keep away game, being able to regenerate strikers will force them into a close-game situation. They will realize that sitting in a corner and using nothing but pokes and far attacks will cause them to lose because all you're doing is staying on the other side and building up stock and strikers. This danger is a real plus for players who use characters that are weak against keep away games.

I admit, I use the Joe striker mainly as a counter to A. Iori and Seth striker turtlers. You could just as easily say that A. Iori and Seth strikers are "cheap", namely because of the ridiculously easy combos you can do off these two.

However, I do limit myself to using the Joe striker as either 1) an excellent mindgame crossup striker or 2) using him **once** to make a painful combo even more painful (Clark's SAB, then jump in CD, Stand C, DM) or 3) for defense.

But I will say if one uses him simply for doing an infinite combo, then Joe can be deemed "cheap".

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I eat King sized pancakes for breakfast, Terry-aki burgers for lunch, and meat Jhun with sloppy Joe and Kim chee for dinner. All I need is Kyo to BURN'em.

[This message has been edited by Iie-Kyo (edited April 21, 2001).]

Nari · Apr 22, 2001

Yes....I would consider Joe cheap becos of the infinites he's associated with. But if u use him not part of any infinites, then I guess it's okay, after all, Seth combine with some characters (Mary, King etc.) are more deadly.

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"I can't lose. For nature's sake"

Goenitz2.0 · Apr 23, 2001

In and of himself, he's not cheap. He CAN be used as SNK thought he would be, and just have him be another striker.

BUT!

I've never seen anyone use Joe striker and NOT pick up off the ground repeatedly. All I've seen him be is a way to give ANY character a 100% combo. I think that's game-breaking, really, because the only thing to be done about it is to either use him in return or use the Seth striker to stop it.

I think it's bad.

-Forrest "Why have you forsaken us, Joe?" Walker

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Goenitz2.0: Stronger, faster, and 1.5 times more alive than ever before.

VinylBoy · Apr 23, 2001

I'd NEVER use the word cheap... the word has really lost its meaning these days with fighting games.

But, I have no problem using words like "predictable" or "typical"... it gives the same meaning of the word "cheap", but has more substance. It would be OBVIOUS for people to use Joe as a striker for his abilities in KOF 2000. And most people who use Joe will obviosuly use him for infinites. Now ALL people, but the average player would.

I personally don't mind it. Since you don't have an unlimited amount of strikers, I play extra cautious and try to force them to run out of strikers. THEN, I attack with full strength.

VinylBoy · Apr 23, 2001

Originally posted by Nari:
Yes....I would consider Joe cheap becos of the infinites he's associated with. But if u use him not part of any infinites, then I guess it's okay, after all, Seth combine with some characters (Mary, King etc.) are more deadly.

Just a simple formula:
Blue Mary + Yashiro (Striker) = Death

Iie-Kyo · Apr 24, 2001

Generally if I ever do play I force the other guy to run outta Seth strikers first (dang abusers) and then go on the offense. They know I have Joe and I think a majority of the players there know I'm fairly good at using one Joe to pick the guy off the ground and making it so that one instance hurts them bad.

Kyo: (opp. in corner) Jump C, Stand C, QCF + D, D, RDP + K, Joe, do combo again or DM

One Joe, 50% life.

I don't like it when other people use Joe to infinite though. Especially if they simply just do one move:

i.e. Clark - do his SAB, then elbow drop send in Joe and just do his SAB again without doing anything else to add to the damage.

Granted, I used to do this but I've learned from many that Joe leaves you enough time to do a LOT of painful stuff that requires a little bit more skill than your average easy grappler combo.

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I eat King sized pancakes for breakfast, Terry-aki burgers for lunch, and meat Jhun with sloppy Joe and Kim chee for dinner. All I need is Kyo to BURN'em.

VinylBoy · Apr 24, 2001

Since I'm pretty much in tune with my team (after 7 years of playing Chin, Athena and Kensou I'd BETTER be), I pretty much go towards the same strategy as many others around here. I don't try to use an obvious offensive striker (such as Joe), for it gives away too much of your fighting strategy. Therefore, I'd use a more unknown striker that actually does more than just help you "continue" combos. Hopefully, another weird and quirky looking character which will make the team even look more "weak" than they appear.

Making your opponents run out of strikers in KEY, especially if they tend to be a little too aggressively trying to kill you. I tend to use my first character as a "tester" to see what type of person I'm playing against... would they just come out at me with everything? Are they waiting for me to do the first move so they can counter? I may toss out one striker out there just to see their reactions to it... it's all a look & feel thing with the first character.

Then, after the observations, I come up with an appropiate strategy and come at them with full strenght with characters 2 and 3... and possibly character 1 (if he/she's still alive) if their skill level isn't as equal as mine. By the final round, my opponent is usually left with no strikers since they're trying too hard to kill me, instead of just figuring out what I'm going to do. They wouldn't dare try to taunt and gain another striker use since you can't cancel taunts like you were able to before, so a LOT of the "aggressive" gameplay that they showed at the beginning starts to fade away. That's when I start using my "weird" striker with obvious weird movements and abilities, and my regular team members to cause crazy confusion.

And hopefully... this all leads to a victory.

Mystical · Apr 24, 2001

Originally posted by AcidicEnema:
Vote: Is Joe Striker cheap?

Ignoring argument's over the word cheap, let's just define it in this case as 'overpowered and severely unbalanced, to the extent of being gamebreaking'.

Could we please have a civil, no flames, no caps vote with a brief explanation beside your vote explaining why you voted such.

My vote: Yes, unfortunately.

Why? : Joe striker makes it too easy for certain characters (Clark, Ralf, K' and Iori come to mind immediately) to kill an opposing character outright using around 1-2 striker bombs and around 2 super bars. That seems like a lot of resources when you put it down on paper, and the standard argument against this is " Aha, but by using so many of your Striker bombs to kill one character, I will destroy with my striker advantage with my other 2 characters".

However, consider:

- charging up super bars is ridiculously easy in KOF 2K. A bit of Iori rush games can get you up to level 3 pronto. So meter is really a non-issue.
- When meter is a non-issue, striker regeneration is that much easier. What? You say that a taunt would leave a Joe-Striker user vulnerable enough for you to punish him big time? I say this:

As long as I want to get back my striker bombs, I can do so at minimal cost, at very most, 20% life + 2 super meters can get me back the 2 striker bombs required to kill a fresh character. Remember- I can taunt and get away relatively unscatched when you are

1) throwing fireballs
2) doing CDs
3) playing footsie

That means, if you want to make sure I do not regenerate Striker bombs, you have to stop throwing fireballs (for King, Takuma, K', Athena, and to a lesser extent, Iori, this kills a big part of their game strategy), stop doing jump CDs, and stop poking. You would be reduced to trying to jump in an combo all the time (which without jumps CDs to claim air space is hard to do efficiently)- a very bad gameplan.

Most people wouldn't even bother with that. They just play like normal, hoping that they can kill their opponent before he can regenerate Joes. I can tell you quite confidently that when a person just has to watch out for the right moment to press one-button (start), regenerating Joes in normal game conditions is childishly easy.

Conclusion: Joe striker is too good simply because it is so easy to regenerate Striker bombs.

I agree that Striker Joe is a little too powerful because so many people can do infinite chain combos as long you have enough strikers (2-3).

I mean, for Iori. If you're a good player (I'm not a very good one, but I've played KOF since '94 was out), you'll be able to damage and kill out Iori without too many hassle, but in '00, all you need to die is by just a hit from the deadly flower, call Joe, C+D you, then grab, slash+Mashing Maiden, then Joe again. Repeat.

I mean, isn't that pure irritating? It's fun for the people doing it, but for victims, I think it's a real irritant.

My thoughts.

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"Be your true mind..."
- Revelations Persona -

Iie-Kyo · Apr 25, 2001

I still say it's only irritating if they use Joe more than once in a combo.

Unles they're desperate (10% life and the other guy has like 50%)

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I eat King sized pancakes for breakfast, Terry-aki burgers for lunch, and meat Jhun with sloppy Joe and Kim chee for dinner. All I need is Kyo to BURN'em.

VinylBoy · Apr 25, 2001

Originally posted by Mystical:
I agree that Striker Joe is a little too powerful because so many people can do infinite chain combos as long you have enough strikers (2-3).

*ANTI-JOE STRIKER BATTLE STRATEGY*

That's why you need to come up with another duo that can literally eliminate people who overly use techniques like this. My neutralizer to ANY overzealous Joe Striker users is Blue Mary/Yashiro. You only have to use Yashiro once... follow this simple combo:

Jumping D, Standing C, Close Standing B (Yashiro Striker), Jumping D, Standing C, Close Standing B, *SUPER*

In place of her *SUPER*:
If not in the corner, use Blue Mary's QCF, HCB+A/C. This will also work in the corner, but won't do nearly as much damage.

If you do this combo in the corner, use here 2xQCF+B or Level 3 B/D.

The problem with all Joe Striker users is that they need a repeated amount of Joe Strikers in order to do the "infinite"... whereas as with the Blue Mary/Yashiro strategy, all you need is one. Each one of these combos is destined to take anywhere from 55%-90% life. Usually, when I do this to their team a few times, they walk away knowing that there's onbiously more to the game than they could ever know. Of course, this is just one of the little tricks you could use.

Nari · Apr 25, 2001

Well there's always Seth....

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"I can't lose. For nature's sake"

Shin Yagami Sama · Apr 25, 2001

Heh... I use him for one combo and ONLY one combo once in a while for show. Its a 100%, so I use it sparringly, and only for show against people who I know I can beat anyway, so theyve got no room to REALLY bitch, since they never win anyway. Its with K:

Throw moderately close to the corner, Joe. QCF C, F+D. QCFx2 C DM, Joe. Close C (both hits), QCF C, F+D, F, D, DF A on the way down, Joe. Close C (both hits), QCF, HCB C DM.

And it only takes three strikers and three power stocks... Yep, hes cheap all right.

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Angels who are forced out of Heaven have no choice but to become demons.

jeff bogard · Apr 25, 2001

joe is agood striker. the only problem is that when it is used against you well there is nothing to stop, ok maybe a mistake but chance are they won't make it. anyhow i wouldn't call him lame or cheap just probably popular among anti-gamers

Batsu_Power · Apr 25, 2001

Actually... I always see Joe & Seth being used by arcade players since they are probably the best strikers that are in the game. However, people may abuse their cheapness and can combo his opponent with a 100% combo, killing an opponent in an instant.... IMO, his striker action should change, so does Seth... so that a lot of people would be competing more fairly.

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Sonomama Shine....
Beware of the wrath of Burning Batsu!.... and Dan's Super Taunts!!!

[This message has been edited by Batsu_Power (edited April 25, 2001).]

VinylBoy · Apr 25, 2001

Originally posted by jeff bogard:
joe is agood striker. the only problem is that when it is used against you well there is nothing to stop, ok maybe a mistake but chance are they won't make it. anyhow i wouldn't call him lame or cheap just probably popular among anti-gamers

The chances of a person making a mistake with a Joe Striker is almost nil, since it's REALLY EASY to do it. I don't mind the whole 100% combo thing, but I can't stand it when people are awarded so much points (or hit damage) for such simple hits or combos that are relatively easy to do. It's not like you're trying to create a juggle combo with Karou, or a repeated launcher combo with Psycho Soldier Kensou.

That's one thing I can't understand in fighters. Combos that are easy to do usually take off far more damage than advanced, expert combos. It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense.

kim6413 · Apr 25, 2001

joe striker can be for infintes but if your low on life he`s not that good because he can`t be used to keep your opponent away

Muchiko · Apr 26, 2001

Throw moderately close to the corner, Joe. QCF C, F+D. QCFx2 C DM, Joe. Close C (both hits), QCF C, F+D, F, D, DF A on the way down, Joe. Close C (both hits), QCF, HCB C DM.

And it only takes three strikers and three power stocks... Yep, hes cheap all right.

You call that cheap? Seth striker is way better/cheaper...

Which one is more cheap, kill your opponent with three Joe strikers or doing a 70-80% combo started from a Low b with Seth striker?

Yuri:
Low B, Close A, DP+C, DP+P, Seth, CD, QCF+P, Seth hits, QCF+P.

Probably the cheapest striker related combo is Jhun's steps... he only needs like one striker to kill you and maybe a Super. However, it would take you more than a month to master the step...

Shin Yagami Sama · Apr 26, 2001

Originally posted by Muchiko:

Probably the cheapest striker related combo is Jhun's steps... he only needs like one striker to kill you and maybe a Super. However, it would take you more than a month to master the step...

Mary and Yashiro, one striker, one super.
All you have to pull off to open it is a standing D. Easiest death combo in the game, IMO.

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Angels who are forced out of Heaven have no choice but to become demons.

Muchiko · Apr 26, 2001

Originally posted by Shin Yagami Sama:
Mary and Yashiro, one striker, one super.
All you have to pull off to open it is a standing D. Easiest death combo in the game, IMO.

You know how hard it is to pull off a Standing D? That doesn't really matter because Mary is probably the most striker friendly character; any grab move from her leads to a striker DM.

Jhun on the other hand has several hundred ways of getting striker and then step to death... Clark with Joe infinite doesn't even compare to him.

VinylBoy · Apr 26, 2001

Originally posted by Shin Yagami Sama:
Mary and Yashiro, one striker, one super.
All you have to pull off to open it is a standing D. Easiest death combo in the game, IMO.

OK... here's the problem with that formula. Blue Mary's up-close Standing D cannot be comboed. The only chance of you actually connecting with it is to hope that your opponent is turtling and not blocking. It doesn't act as a true overhead like it should... in fact, just doing the move leaves her open like a sitting duck.

Blue Mary's best move for connecting ANY super now is her up-close Standing B. Blue Mary will do a jumping roundhouse, then follow up with a roundhouse on the ground... the great thing about this move is that even if you DO miss with the first move, you can still do a super and connect if you connect with the second one. You call out the Yashiro striker between the first and second hits of Blue Mary's B kick, which keeps your opponent being hit by Yashiro's combos. Then, either follow up with a Jumping D, Up-Close Standing C, Up-Close Standing B... then the super of your choice. Or any variation of the combo listed above.

One striker... one combo... yet a LOT more skill than just grab, Joe Striker, grab, Joe, etc...

Muchiko · Apr 27, 2001

Originally posted by VinylBoy:
Blue Mary's best move for connecting ANY super now is her up-close Standing B. Blue Mary will do a jumping roundhouse, then follow up with a roundhouse on the ground... the great thing about this move is that even if you DO miss with the first move, you can still do a super and connect if you connect with the second one. You call out the Yashiro striker between the first and second hits of Blue Mary's B kick, which keeps your opponent being hit by Yashiro's combos. Then, either follow up with a Jumping D, Up-Close Standing C, Up-Close Standing B... then the super of your choice. Or any variation of the combo listed above.

One striker... one combo... yet a LOT more skill than just grab, Joe Striker, grab, Joe, etc...

Why don't you do close D (2hits) into Forward B (2hits) then.

VinylBoy · Apr 27, 2001

Originally posted by Muchiko:
Why don't you do close D (2hits) into Forward B (2hits) then.

You can do that too...
But I usually like a jump-in move to start the combo... The in-close Standing D has startup animation that's a dead giveaway for people who you're playing against (kinda like Ryu's Overhead Punch from SF). If this move was a true overhead (one which would require you to block high), then I would actually use this move more.

I like comboing off the first hit of the standing C, into the Standing B double kick. This type of combo (along with a yashiro Striker) is bound to cause some sort of confusion with your opponent. Their instinct is to block low... so if youy follow up with any jumping C or D, they'll get hit allowing you to continue the combo. If the try to block high, it leaves their feet open, so you can simply do another Standing B, so that the second kick will connect, allowing you to follow with the super. Or, if you don't have any super stocks, you can come in with a sliding footsweep (Charge Back, FWD +B/D) and grapple combination.

Again, that's just my personal choice. And I hope I don't run into someone that will beat me to death with my own tactics.

Joe Striker- Let's have a real, no flame discussion

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