Ebay pirates...

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OK, maybe I'm a little green when it comes to the attitudes of the NEO GEO scene, and maybe I'm going to step on a few toes here, but I really don't get it.

What's the difference between people selling pirated roms on ebay, and !Arcade! selling his unlicensed cart conversions?

SNK has proven unable or unwilling to meet demand or enforce their copyrights, so pirating is rampant. !Arcade is praised for his illegal productions, but anyone selling roms is slammed. Why the double standard? What's the difference?

Lawrence.
 

Daisuke Jigen

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I wish I knew. People seem to have the general concensus that conversions, done by someone like Jeff, using all original SNK parts, is OK. I kinda agree with that. No one is copying, or pirating intellectual property. Arcades realeases bothered me quite a bit, but I kept my yap shut, as going against the grain can earn someone the flames of hell here. I'm not going to get itno that.

Pirating on eBay is horibly looked down upon because someone is not only selling copied works of game companies, they are also selling copies of emulators, which should be freeware. Basically parasitic off of someones work. You never see "100 NEO GEO ROMS AND EMULATOR" for 1.00 on eBay, because the scum ake something that is not theirs and profit from it. Like if I made color photocopies of the Mona Lisa and sold them outside the lourve. It's close, and definatley cheaper, but it is nowhere near the same experience. Many people here play NEO GEO roms, and 75% percent own an AES, and the games they play. Why they would want to play roms when they can play the original is beyond me. You can ask many a people here and they will tell you that NeoRageX or Mame got them into NEO in the first place.
 

Scalpeur

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For me there are no differences! Apart the fact any releases from !arcade! are unrealeses AES so it can be a good point for those that really want to play them on their NeoGeo System and the fact that you can't find them somewhere else (or nearly).
The pirated roms on ebay are simply the roms that you can find on internet for free! So, the fact that they sell Them is totaly amazing! Imagine 2 CD whose the cost is 2$ for both and that they try to sell them for 70$!!!!
You know, I am against piraty, even if it is right that I have all the games on my computer,I still try to purchase them! (even the poor games).
But, In the case of neogeo it is a little bite particular since the price of the AES is very high and it is difficult to find them. Moreover it makes people able to play the games even if they don't have enough money. anyway, We are going to enter in an arguing subject and that's not what i want
<IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
 

Takumaji

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I think there are differences between !Arcade! and ROM pirates who sell their shit via eBay. Although I don't know the legal status of Arcade's conversions I think they support the Neo scene instead of killing it (like NGF and friends). And it costs them money, which they want to get back by selling their products, unlike pirates who get stuff for free (read: steal intellectual property), compile it and sell it with a 100% profit.

Personally I'm leaning towards *not* to support converted carts. If a company needs all pennies now it can get it's SNK, and I really doubt that conversions help them commercially in any way (I may be wrong here tho).
 

oak

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Originally posted by NEOGEOman:
<STRONG>OK, maybe I'm a little green when it comes to the attitudes of the NEO GEO scene, and maybe I'm going to step on a few toes here, but I really don't get it.

What's the difference between people selling pirated roms on ebay, and !Arcade! selling his unlicensed cart conversions?

SNK has proven unable or unwilling to meet demand or enforce their copyrights, so pirating is rampant. !Arcade is praised for his illegal productions, but anyone selling roms is slammed. Why the double standard? What's the difference?

Lawrence.</STRONG>

Well I guess the main difference for people is that if you buy a conversion you sort of support SNK and it's products (after all the conversions are made of original SNK carts, and you need an AES to play them) - although in the end SNK doesn't see any money for the conversion. Maybe it also has something to do with the work which has to be put in to make a conversion.

Buying a CD packed with ROMs only supports the pirate. And the guy selling the CD on ebay doesn't really put any effort into his "product" -- the guy who ripped the ROM probably did though.

Either way, I don't really care who sells what on ebay - it's up to the buyer to decide whether he wants it or not...
 
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This is kind of the core of my point. !Arcade! is illegaly making carts that are no less stealing from SNK than anyone selling ROMs on ebay. Whether or not he's good for "the scene" seems to be the only consideration in the minds of a lot of people.

Personally I'd feel guilty every single time I put a pirated cart (or CD) into any of my systems. If I can't afford a NEO game, or I'm too stupid/cheap to make a JAMMA rig to play MVS carts, then I simply won't play it. The fact that SNK's too stupid/broke to support us rabid fans does not, IMHO, make it acceptable to simply take what we want, remanufacture it, and sell it for a profit.

At least that's how I see it. The whole thing stinks. =(

Lawrence.
 

RevQuixo

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This is a really dumb arguement.


What !arcade! does is modify the existing MVS cart into another form. They bought the MVS cart and as such have the right to modify it any way they see fit. They are not (at least not that anyone has proven) burning their own eeproms and such creating a product out of thin air. SNK was paid for the original MVS cart....they got their money.
 

oak

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Originally posted by Takumaji:
<STRONG>I think they support the Neo scene instead of killing it (like NGF and friends).</STRONG>

I don't really see that NGF is "killing the Neo scene" -- it's up to the buyers to decide if they want to buy their stuff or not... so if I go by what you are saying, then in a way the scene is "killing" itself by supporting 'em. <IMG SRC="smilies/loco.gif" border="0">
 
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The last thing I want is for this to devolve into a flame war, but since most neo fans are hotheads I fear that's where this is going. To clarify:

Oak said:
so if I go by what you are saying, then in a way the scene is "killing" itself by supporting 'em.
Well, yeah, they are. I don't think there's much of a chance of SNK actually doing something good for us, but this whole !arcade thing certainly won't make them MORE interested.

RevQixo said:
What !arcade! does is modify the existing MVS cart into another form.
You're choosing to ignore the fancy manuals full of copyrighted art, I see. Not to mention that games like Strikers 1945 (psikyo) and NitD (Eleven) aren't SNK games, they were developed by third parties. Same with Panic Bomberman (Hudson), Shock Troopers (Saurus), Neo Mr. Do (Universal), Bust a Move Again (Taito), Super Dodgeball (Tecnos) and pretty much everything else on !Arcade's release list.

Game fans don't always do what's best for themselves or the companies that produce the games they love.

Lawrence.
 

RevQuixo

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RevQixo said:
What !arcade! does is modify the existing MVS cart into another form.
You're choosing to ignore the fancy manuals full of copyrighted art, I see. Not to mention that games like Strikers 1945 (psikyo) and NitD (Eleven) aren't SNK games, they were developed by third parties. Same with Panic Bomberman (Hudson), Shock Troopers (Saurus), Neo Mr. Do (Universal), Bust a Move Again (Taito), Super Dodgeball (Tecnos) and pretty much everything else on !Arcade's release list.
[/QB][/QUOTE]


And you fail to realize that beyond Strikers none of the other games have manuals. Additionally, !arcade! told us that they had made arrangements with the right people concerning the rights to use the Strikers images. If you are going to quibble over copywritten images then every image on this site is in violation of SNK or a third parties intellectual property. The fact of the matter is that supposedly !Arcade! obtained the proper rights with Strikers....and that is the information we have to go on.
 

RevQuixo

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Let me also put this into a perspective that you might understand. Everytime you modify a system to add s-video or RGB or whatever and consequently sell the item for a premium does Nintendo, SEGA, Sony, etc get a kickback of that extra money? Are you pirating from them because you modify the already existing hardware? Using your aforementioned criteria you are. You have an existing piece of hardware..you change it...you sell it. Same difference with !arcade!.

As far as the copyright issue goes...i doubt arcadesolutions is dumb enough to set themselves up for a lawsuit from the copyright owners of the games they are modifying. I give them that credit.
 

Takumaji

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Originally posted by oak:
<STRONG>I don't really see that NGF is "killing the Neo scene" -- it's up to the buyers to decide if they want to buy their stuff or not... so if I go by what you are saying, then in a way the scene is "killing" itself by supporting 'em. <IMG SRC="smilies/loco.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

No, I don't think so. NGF deliberately fakes carts, inserts and other artwork, sells them as "official" and rips off people who haven't gotten into the NGF trap before. Which is not the people's fault since not everybody has the same informations about NGF like we have. NGF's actions are inherently evil and illegal, with or without people buying from them. The latter just makes things even worse.

But this is OT - it's no NGF thread (at least *not yet*) <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
 

Viewpoint

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This has always been a touchy subject for me but I'll try to lay it out in the light of both ends.

*thinks

Ok !Arcade! came around in the scene about a littler over a year ago. This of course was around the time Shawn's site was finally starting to move up from 2nd rate *heh* to something of a united scene as a whole.

At the time Dion Dakis & Chris Ray were 2 people more or less well known in the scene who did conversions of Neo*Geo carts and charged ungodly high prices AND tried to tell everyone they were official SNK guys and had ties ins with the now defunt company.

This continued on for many years in this scene with Dion running around saying I AM NEOGEO, talking down to people, screwing people over*Too many people to name at the moment* and overall being an ass to everyone who knew who him.

SNK sadly is a loopy company that never had it's wheels on straight so in the end a lot of games which SHOULD have been on home cart never made the transition. Of course I more than willingly say yes converted Neo*Geo carts are not legal in the sense that SNK never approved of such conversion and thus should not have been done.

Now Jeff Kurtz at one time or another has done his own conversion of carts which his usual requirement is the person wanting the conversion would have to supply the original MVS cart & the sac cart to do this.

He's been doing just as long as Dion but one thing that always made him widely accepted is the fact he doesn't charge high ass prices for these conversion jobs.

Moving on to !Arcade! now at the time I knew these were around in the scene but never really got into any ventures with the Neo*Geo as a possible business choice.

The main factor which made !Arcade! widly accepted was the Phantom-1 convertor which they had created to allow people to play MVS games at home inculding encrypted home carts which normally would not work on an AES syetem.

I'm sure seeing as you've been around in the Neo for awhile you knew about the older side loading convertors and whatnot that tho nice was unable to play newer SNK games.

Now jumping ahead with !Arcade! and conversions of their type. One thing NGman that chaffs a lot of people in the ass is the saccing of home carts to create these conversions.

Usually people are not hardassed about them in reagrds to older titles because there was a buttload of home sac carts made like Samurai Shodown II for example. This of course was ok for some people while others still frowned upon the issue.

Of course later Neo MVS games which had encrypted coding on them usually required 2 sac carts instead of one due to the amount of work. Ala Prehistorice Isle 2 needs a Slug 3 top board and a KoF 99 bottom board to do the conversion. *I think <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">*

!Arcade! decided with the release of Strikers 1945 Plus to develop their own custom board which would allow them to only sac MVS carts and they would no longer have to worry about killing home carts to make the conversion.

The issue was visited before with this and it's been said that seeing as !Arcade! paid for the original MVS cart, SNK got their money.

This also hold true in that SNK never made plans to release this as a home cart and thus never lost any money either due to them never really concentrating on the home cart market anymore.

I do agree about the issues with the art and I cannot refute that point in anyway seeing as it's copyrighted material but this once again goes back to them being loopy.

I mean afterall if SNK didn't care about Dion they sure as hell don't care about !Arcade! either.

This of course was quoted a long time ago by the Gamelord Chad Okada who worked originally for SNK USA when their offices were still active.

The main issue he said at the time SNK just didn't care to pursue any legal action on Dion or anyone else regarding the converted carts. He also mentioned that of course if Dion or anyone else tried to undercut their MVS market then SNK would most truly act on the issue.

Overal in the end, yes the conversions are illegal. SNK also said they didn't care about these conversions either so that's basically saying it's A-ok which of course even I roll my eyes at.

Just a short note on Romz tho. It's already been said by most people about selling romz on egay so I won't say much expect I agree with the issue.

Anyone can get Roms and you & I both know a chunk of people who play Neo games on the Net never even owned or seen a Neo*Geo system before.

I hope this clears up a few things in regards to conversions. I'm not under any illusions or false light about what they really are.

!Arcade! for the record also has never said they were official SNK made games and I will give them credit for their being honest about what they sell.

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: BonusKun ]
 
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RevQixo eloquently stated:
If you are going to quibble over copywritten images then every image on this site is in violation of SNK or a third parties intellectual property.
A pre-requistite of copyright infringement is that the person infringing is profiting from the use of said copyright. I doubt whoever runs this site makes a dime off it.

Let me also put this into a perspective that you might understand. Everytime you modify a system to add s-video or RGB ... Are you pirating from them because you modify the already existing hardware?

Let's try this another way. You buy a DVD and sell a VHS copy of this DVD in fancy packaging using the original logos. Say you're extra nice and you throw out the original media. Do any of us believe for even a heartbeat that the MPAA wouldn't bring a world of hurt down on your ass? If you made 8-track tapes of CDs do you think you'd last a week without a lawsuit?

If !Arcade really has the copyright holders permission to re-release these games, fantastic. More power to them. There's no mention of this anywhere on their site that I can see, and from what I gather they're only getting away with this because they're under the radar of the people who hold the copyrights. If I had permission I'd splash a great big "Authorized!" across the webpage.

I'd be pleased if they provided some proof of such arrangements, but I won't bother issuing a public challenge. Let them do what they want, my original question was concerning the apparent hypocrisy of it all.

Lawrence.
 

RevQuixo

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Well I'm sure the NeoStore does make more than a dime.
 

oak

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Originally posted by Takumaji:
<STRONG>No, I don't think so. NGF deliberately fakes carts, inserts and other artwork, sells them as "official" and rips off people who haven't gotten into the NGF trap before. Which is not the people's fault since not everybody has the same informations about NGF like we have. NGF's actions are inherently evil and illegal, with or without people buying from them. The latter just makes things even worse.

But this is OT - it's no NGF thread (at least *not yet*) <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Yeah this is OT <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
Well there are enough people out there saying that the guys at NGF are lying bastards (we don't have to get into that) - but I don't see how that kills "the scene", it just kills NGFs reputation...

There are bad traders in every konsole scene - but they prevail nontheless.

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: oak ]
 

nick_th_fury

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but I don't see how that kills "the scene", it just kills NGFs reputation...

Well maybe thats because you havent been here for the last 5years or so to see the effect.

You'd be surprised indeed.
I've seen literally dozens & dozens of fans disapointed, ripped, & driven away.
I cant count the times Id see some kid,
excited over the neogeo, enter th scene.
Befriend them, tell us how nice they were,
& that we all collectivly must have personal problems or just be jealous.

Then a few months later, they mention their deal gone bad.
Not getting what they paid for, & when they complain, NGF rails them, humilating them publicly.

After that, they usually sell out, & leave the scene for good.
Weve all seen it countless times in the past.
What keeps em going you ask?
Their smart, thats what.
They detect a small vocal minority, & deal honestly with them.
By taking care of these guys, they sing the praises of ngf, & continue to get good deals.
these guys feel as long as their getting a good deal, that is enough.
Problems other people report about them, are not their problem.
It's never their problem, till they get on ngf's bad side.
 

nick_th_fury

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my original question was concerning the apparent hypocrisy of it all.


You have some nerve IMO.
Hypocrites my ass.

No one is saying that conversions are the best solution.
However, likening it to rom sellers & emu pirates is daft.

What exactly did the rom sellers do to support snk or its fan base?
Oh yea, nothing at all.

What about conversions?
Lets see, if they made 50 of these.
Then they had to buy 50mvs carts.
That means they just paid for 50 licenses to play.
SNK is about sales.
They prefer to have 50more sales, than millions of lost sales.
Rom pirates sell for a profit, & don't give back anything to SNK.

Thats not what fans do.
If you need to look at it from a legal standpoint, liken it to the lesser of two crimes.

I dont think i've ever seen anyfan say wow,
we love the state of affaris in the neo scene.
Sure do wish SNK would go bankrupt, so we can pirate or convert more carts.

SNK has taken a beat down, but they support the fan base, & the fan base supports them.
It aint perfect, but were far from hypocrites.
 

Takumaji

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Originally posted by oak:
<STRONG>Yeah this is OT <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
Well there are enough people out there saying that the guys at NGF are lying bastards (we don't have to get into that) - but I don't see how that kills "the scene", it just kills NGFs reputation...

There are bad traders in every konsole scene - but they prevail nontheless.

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: oak ]</STRONG>

BonusKun: We should provide oak with some more links to assorted NGF stories on this BBS <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Uhm, well, before this gets even more OT I hasten to add that NGF are not only "bad sellers" but also thiefs and impostors. They say they'd be SNK (at least they did it in the past) while playing their men-in-the-middle thingy very badly (KoF2k). They exploited the rarity of certain SNK releases, cheated honest buyers and endlessly stirred-up their own shit with vapor ware, proto carts which never saw the light of the day.

How this does affect SNK and the Neo scene you ask?

Well... When KoF2k came out, it came out in Japan, but soon NGF claimed to be the official US distributor/creator of the game. NGF however were never official SNK licensees, nor did they ever had the chance to work with SNK to release an US version of any SNK game (like Shawn did). Instead, they faked the KoF2k release, printed inserts, stickers, etc. in low quality and sold the carts, while still spreading lies about their legitimacy towards SNK.

After that, quite a few people bought this KoF release. As soon as they realized what happened to them, it was all too late, the money was gone, gone for a faked cart.

Now, what do you think, how many of these people that happened to be cheated with a fake NGF-KoF turned around and bought a genuine SNK KoF2k Jap? Not many I guess, since the NGF KoF was a high priced item. So SNK *and* the scene suffered from NGFs actions.

If that is no threat to a scene of faithful SNK devotees I don't know what is. <IMG SRC="smilies/mad2.gif" border="0">
 

oak

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Originally posted by nick_th_fury:
<STRONG>Well maybe thats because you havent been here for the last 5years or so to see the effect.

You'd be surprised indeed.
I've seen literally dozens & dozens of fans disapointed, ripped, & driven away.
I cant count the times Id see some kid,
excited over the neogeo, enter th scene.
Befriend them, tell us how nice they were,
& that we all collectivly must have personal problems or just be jealous.

Then a few months later, they mention their deal gone bad.
Not getting what they paid for, & when they complain, NGF rails them, humilating them publicly.

After that, they usually sell out, & leave the scene for good.
Weve all seen it countless times in the past.
What keeps em going you ask?
Their smart, thats what.
They detect a small vocal minority, & deal honestly with them.
By taking care of these guys, they sing the praises of ngf, & continue to get good deals.
these guys feel as long as their getting a good deal, that is enough.
Problems other people report about them, are not their problem.
It's never their problem, till they get on ngf's bad side.</STRONG>

5 years? No - got my Neo in 98. See the changes? In a way yes (more and more people showing up telling of their rip-off deals, if that's what you mean) - but I've never seen anyone sell out of a system because he meets one bad trader. That just gives to much power to one guy. I buy a system because I wanna play & collect the games, and I couldn't care less about the scene. Be it full of great people or lame asses - you'll find both, all the time no matter what console or what "scene". I've had my share of rip-offs. Fine, shit happens, so I don't deal with them again - but I won't sell a system because I meet a few dorks. I sell a system because I lose interest - and I know quite a few collectors who sold the Neo because they simply didn't like the games anymore. Konsole scenes change over time, in the end only a handful of collectors and hardcore enthusiasts remain.
It's like that with all consoles coming to age - be it the NES, MS, PCE, whatever. I'd just hate to give the power of "killing a scene" to one guy only...

Take care,
 
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First off, I feel bad about butting heads with you about this, 'cause your page is a valuable resource.

Nick_th_fury wrote:

You have some nerve IMO.
Hypocrites my ass.

Anyone who professes to condemn any ebay whore selling ROMs but wholeheartedly approves of buying, converting and re-selling games is a hyprocrite, because both are illegal. Now converting carts may not be illegal, perhaps, but making stickers/manuals/covers with the original logo on it sure as hell is, assuming proper permissions weren't granted.

Both ROM selling and copyright infringement are illegal acts, that's the letter of the law. To say that one is evil and bad but the other is acceptable because you want it to happen or because SNK couldn't manage their way out of an open cardboard box is, by definition, hypocritical.

The thing is, regardless of what you think of SNK or the rarity/price issue of all of this, it's still illegal. They just may be doing the "scene" a service, but it's still illegal. Condemning one but not the other is hypocritical. If you're interested, you can look the word up over on Dictionary.com.

Lawrence.
 

bugula

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Originally posted by NEOGEOman:
<STRONG>A pre-requistite of copyright infringement is that the person infringing is profiting from the use of said copyright. I doubt whoever runs this site makes a dime off it.
</STRONG>

that's not a pre-requisite for copyright infringement. copyright infringement happens whenever intellectual property (belonging to a registered holder of that property) is used in a manner not approved of by that holder.

this is reading the letter of the law rather than following the nature of it, but a person need not make a dime from stolen intelluctual property for it to be considered copyright infringement.
 

oak

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Originally posted by Takumaji:
<STRONG>BonusKun: We should provide oak with some more links to assorted NGF stories on this BBS <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Uhm, well, before this gets even more OT I hasten to add that NGF are not only "bad sellers" but also thiefs and impostors. They say they'd be SNK (at least they did it in the past) while playing their men-in-the-middle thingy very badly (KoF2k). They exploited the rarity of certain SNK releases, cheated honest buyers and endlessly stirred-up their own shit with vapor ware, proto carts which never saw the light of the day.

How this does affect SNK and the Neo scene you ask?

Well... When KoF2k came out, it came out in Japan, but soon NGF claimed to be the official US distributor/creator of the game. NGF however were never official SNK licensees, nor did they ever had the chance to work with SNK to release an US version of any SNK game (like Shawn did). Instead, they faked the KoF2k release, printed inserts, stickers, etc. in low quality and sold the carts, while still spreading lies about their legitimacy towards SNK.

After that, quite a few people bought this KoF release. As soon as they realized what happened to them, it was all too late, the money was gone, gone for a faked cart.

Now, what do you think, how many of these people that happened to be cheated with a fake NGF-KoF turned around and bought a genuine SNK KoF2k Jap? Not many I guess, since the NGF KoF was a high priced item. So SNK *and* the scene suffered from NGFs actions.

If that is no threat to a scene of faithful SNK devotees I don't know what is. <IMG SRC="smilies/mad2.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Well thanks for the insight member +1600, <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> I've been around. I'm just not giving one guy the power to "kill a scene". They're not helping - fine I agree, "the scene suffered from NGFs actions" - fine I agree aswell, but "suffer" and "kill" is a little differnt isn't it?
 

Takumaji

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Ok... 1600+... <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> - Point taken! <IMG SRC="smilies/eek2.gif" border="0">

So my revised all-purpose NGF accusation would read: NGF's actions and their supporters have a negative impact on the Neo scene.

How's that? <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
 
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