Why not to support NGF regardless of KOF2K

Despite the recent debates, As I have said in previouse post I am willing to believe NGF has been givien the rights to produce a English version of KOF2K. This is not the issues I have. No the issues I have is what has transpired over the past few months, for I have seen..

1. A hugh order of neo home carts going to reputable dealers that were to be offered at fair prices being intercepted by NGF and having thier pricing policy applied.

2. A English version of KOF2000 being offered at a price far above a japanese release and magicaly raising while the japanese release is devauled by NGF because they have 12 out of 9,900 copies they may be willing to sell for $270.

3. An Auction where prices are quoted that do not even match up with the pricing offered on thier own site.

4. The constent price manipulation and inconsistent reporting of values. to really see how NGF carts have appriciate just compare Shawn's price list of NGF carts and the link to dions page to NGF own price list of thier NGF carts. I imagine these pages will disappear or the prices may change so look quick.
http://members.aol.com/dkd4/neogeoprices.html

also note the english releases of carts like magical drop 2,3 etc...

compared to
http://www.neogeofreak.com/ngfstock1.htm

5. NGF members coming under false alais's to debate and promote thier products. While misinforming the neo consumer

Taking all of this into consideration these are the reason I would never support a organization like NGF. Who's true goal seems to be to monopolize the Neo market and missinform the neo community. I am greatly disgusted and alarmed by the efforts of NGF to ruin the Neo and destroy the system I love.

And who is Hurt by all this.

1. The collector who is paying a overly inflated price and sees little to no gain in thier investment.

2. The gamer who is being keep from buying games they love because of false priceing policy applied to such games.

3. The reputable dealer who is dealing with phonecalls of upset consumers thinking they overpaid for KOF2k. I for one wrote NCS and thanked them for supporting the neo market as they always have.

So I ask how can any true Neo fan Want to support NGF regardless of a official release or not. Can anyone honestly say they are out to benefit the neo community? Do you really want to see a neo future where NCS may be prevented from offering Neo carts and selling them at fair prices?

I have my japanese version of KOF2k as with the 100's of other neo carts, CDs and MVS carts I own, along with the 100's of more neo items I will buy in the future. I love the neo and have been with it for 8 years now as many know. As with anything if I feel something is not worth what it is offered for I simple do not buy it. Which is why I have never bought anything NGF. But when I Saw what has transpired over the last month with dealers I respect and trust along with Neo fans I had to say something more.

I will keep posting to this board and welcome opposing views. Anyone can also email me at BigBruno_x@email.msn.com if they wish.

But do not confuse the topic. This is not for debating if KOF2K english is official. This is about if you would want to see NGF be who will support the neo in the future.

Do not worry, NGF will never get my hard earned money.

I love chris ray's pathetic sob story about how it was NGF's influence (and begging) that convinced SNK to release a home cart of KOF 2K at all (this in a new forum topic here in News & Rumours) whereas a few months ago, NCS clearly stated that they had to guarantee a minimum order number with SNK-Japan to get them to do it. Now, who will you believe? NCS, or No Good Fakers with their proven track record of lies and deceit? As if SNK-Japan would even take dion's KMart credit card. Or as if those two basement-dwelling knock-off producing monkeys even HAD any influence.

-BioMotor_Unitron

Nicely said BIG BRUNO,
The old timer's in this group know what this prick PION is all about but it seems as the months & years go by the newbies don't understand what a fucken snake is! so if they want to deal with this piece of shit let them. he has no one else to convince and is using every tactic he can on them, the only problem with all this you and the rest of us old seasoned gamers have to now watch out so we don't wind up with all the shit he's been MFG. i guess we all should forget the deal with NCS & VGD too! he and his high class want a be's leave a smell no matter where they go. hupplark_39

Great post, Big Bruno. I'm not sure eveyone around here knows that you've been supporting the Neo for many years, and that your website from a couple years ago had a lot of influence on Neo fans. Its good to hear an opinion from a "veteran" Neo Geo gamer, and it puts the years of problems with NGF into a very sharp perspective.

Like you, I'm sickened by the whole NGF mentality, and I'd never knowingly buy anything produced by or handled by them, period. So for the future, if Jap cart releases do come out, those are the ones I'll buy. If they don't, I'll just wait until the MVS cart price drops, and pick one of those up instead.

Thanks for the thoughtful, enlightened post Big Bruno!!

I wish to respond to Chris R's message before closing the subject:

1. There are multiple people that have called SNK Japan and recieved the
response that there is an official US KOF2000 and NGF is the official Distributor for US
KOF2000. Are all these people to be ignored?

Click to expand...

Notice how he completely disregards my post! The people you speak of (with the
exception of Geddon and a few others) were here to back up your lofty claim. Ironically,
the people you speak of aren't even registered users! They just appeared out of thin air with knowledge of your 'official' cart, and they had already called SNK to verify your official status? Calling SNK and getting their approval to re-sell in the U.S. doesn't make you an official distributor. There's paper work to fill out (i.e. its called a license agreement
-- maybe you should talk to someone about it) and you HAVE to prove there is a
customer base waiting to purchase the item. Besides, you need to have your company's
name licensed by the State you live in (its called a business license) before you can sign a legal binding contract making you an offical distributor, and a Tax ID must be
issued, too, so the IRS can keep track of your spending. It doesn't matter where you spend your business' money (it could be Japan, for example), because the IRS will want to tax you on EVERYTHING you spend (take it from someone who knows) Also, without this business license, you can't get items at wholesale cost either! Are
you telling me that NGF paid full price for these cartridges and that's why you're charging above and beyond SRP? One last thing: official distributors don't have to beg for anything -- the main branch of any company would agree to this.

Since these retailers did not want to preorder from us, and we could not meet the
minimum 1000 units for SNK to foot the bill for English printing/translation what were we
supposed to do? Just say fuck it?

Click to expand...

They didn't order from you because SNK told them the same story. I thought you said
SNK printed the English KOF 2K material for NGF because it (NGF) was an official SNK distributor? Now you're saying you had to beg (i.e. convince) SNK of Japan to print the material you needed .... Ahh! I had enough!





------------------

NeoLord
Neo-News and much more!

[This message has been edited by NeoLord (edited December 27, 2000).]

Good points, NeoLord.
I doubt Dion has ever paid any tax in his life :P

Yes, all NeoDom owes a debt of gratitude to the veterans of the scene, who would keep us all informed so we do not succumb to the schemes of NGF! Neo Geo Veterans, we salute you!

-BioMotor_Unitron

looks like the pages for the prices have finaly been changed.

OK, I've pretty much kept my mouth shut during this whole thing.... But I was just thinking here and something popped into my head....

Remember the Atari Jaguar, the early catch phrase 'Do the Math.'

Well, I put some thought into this, and decided to do some of the math.

KOF2k Japanese version @ $270 while the supposed English version @ $590.

There we have a $320 difference in price. Multiply that by 100 units, that is $32,000.

NO ONE can tell me it cost $32k to localize and package 100 english carts! That is absolutely UNTRUE! If it did, well, someone needs to find some business sense.

Localization would, at most, be $5k, and the packaging, at most, $1k. Thats $60 a cart! $270 + $60, thats $330! Amazing. Add $50 profit, thats $380.

So, if it is real, they are really ripping people off, if it is fake, they are just doing their usual mark up.

I can not say it is real , and I can not say it is fake. As far as I am concerned, ANYTHING that has 'NeoGeoFreak.com' is an unofficial product made by a fan group. I am sure many other people agree with that.

Would I like a copy, sure, I would love to check one out, but it is not worth the cash. $400, maybe, but definitely not $590.

As usual, these are my own opinions, take them with a grain of salt (or a pillar!)



------------------
Keith

Those are all good points, Keith. I wonder why none of the NGF people have stepped in to refute them? And the issue of the missing gold sticker on the "English" KOF2K cart (the one that in English says "Please insert a game cartridge correctly. Inserting a cartridge the wrong way could cause damage") hasn't been answered by anyone, especially "NGF". So, do I get the feeling that NGF just peeled the japanese version of that sticker OFF the japanese carts when they "converted" them to the "English" version?

Kiselgof? Geddon? NGF? Anyone?

<silence . . . the wind wispers on, a dry tumbleweed bounces by, but no sounds break the painful silence . . . >

Oh gee, how *will* I ever paint myself out of this corner? LOL

Umm... maybe they forgot it? Who knows. Just because its not there doesn't mean its not there because it used to be Japanese.

Originally posted by chimpmeister:
Those are all good points, Keith. I wonder why none of the NGF people have stepped in to refute them? And the issue of the missing gold sticker on the "English" KOF2K cart (the one that in English says "Please insert a game cartridge correctly. Inserting a cartridge the wrong way could cause damage") hasn't been answered by anyone, especially "NGF". So, do I get the feeling that NGF just peeled the japanese version of that sticker OFF the japanese carts when they "converted" them to the "English" version?

Kiselgof? Geddon? NGF? Anyone?

<silence . . . the wind wispers on, a dry tumbleweed bounces by, but no sounds break the painful silence . . . >

Click to expand...

I am not going to disclose the figures that NGF-USA quoted me for what they paid, but yes, they ARE making a profit. This is a business after all. What kind of profit are they making? A fairly decent amount and none of anyone's business because we are not here to judge how much money anyone makes. Let's just say that although the amount is decent and would be worth it to go through the pain of "faking" the game, there is more to the issue than just money. Whether you will admit it or not, Dion IS the ultimate Neo Geo fan. He IS the one with the connections at SNK-Japan. We will see if some other things he mentioned pan out, but HOW MANY other people have the connections to do some of the things he has been able to do? I just know that he wouldn't be in this just for profit. There are easier ways to make money. This is about Neo-Passion.

It is funny that the gold caution sticker issue hasn't been answered, particularly funny because NO ONE BROUGHT IT UP until I posted the pictures. Those pictures are all a part of a professional report on my part which lists ANY physical discrepancy I may have located on MY personal copy of the game in comparison to other recent releases. Once again, you can look at the pictures, maybe even notice other discrepancies, but you CAN NOT make judgements until you see all the facts or hold the game in your hands. If there are discrepancies, you can be sure I have noticed ALL of them and discussed it with people. What do I claim now? Nothing, because nothing can convince anyone until they see the game in their own hands. I would post my report, but after reviewing it with John, we agreed that it would be too complicated for anyone with a non-technical background to fiture out. Conclusion: SNK-Japan has their run of carts ready to go, someone comes in wanting a miniscule run of carts, they peel off the existing Japanese caution labels, what happens next? Anyone's guess.

Sincerely,

Kale

Originally posted by kiselgof:
I am not going to disclose the figures that NGF-USA quoted me for what they paid, but yes, they ARE making a profit. This is a business after all. What kind of profit are they making? A fairly decent amount and none of anyone's business because we are not here to judge how much money anyone makes. Let's just say that although the amount is decent and would be worth it to go through the pain of "faking" the game, there is more to the issue than just money. Whether you will admit it or not, Dion IS the ultimate Neo Geo fan. He IS the one with the connections at SNK-Japan. We will see if some other things he mentioned pan out, but HOW MANY other people have the connections to do some of the things he has been able to

Click to expand...

Again I will state this was more a topic to discuss If everyone would want to see NGF support the Neo in the future Not if KOF 2000 english is official.

As far as Dion goes I would discribe him more of having a Manical obsession then a passion for the Neo. Yes you are Right that every business is entitled to a profit. But the way NGF handles themsleves and the amount of profit the extort is what is really ridiculas here. But I would leave them alone if they left all the other people helping the Neo community alone. Instead though they have to pull thier usally stunts to try to monopolize the Neo. You may think well since no one else is trying to do what they have done then it is Ok to go with them. But when I see them come complaining in this forum because someone did not use The NGF color strip on some homemade insert. Or downplaying and dening the fact that others can make convertors and IM conversions. Also that whole deal with them intercepting that Neo shippment and marking it up as much as $550 on some pieces.

As far as future homecart and mvs releases NGF well have nothing to do with that. Maybe they can pay SNK to make a english version if other homecarts come out. Or do the usally conversion and say it is official. But with a 10,000 home cart order minmum, NCS preording well be more of a factor then NGF. I would rather deal with my mom or dad then the evil neighbor down the street.

I do not know how long you have been on the Neo scene Kiselgof. But if you have been here for awhile surely you can see a NGF dominated neo market would by the final nail in the coffin of the Neo for home users. But if you feel differently then please debate, it is good to hear opposing views.

One last thing. As far as NGF being capable of doing good deals I am sure they are. But we have also heard the opposing views and I to was promised something for dion and long while back and he never delevered and complained through email to me on what I sent him for free. it is a long story and not worth getting into but that set the stage and hearing the other stories confirm what I already Know.

[This message has been edited by Big Bruno (edited December 29, 2000).]

Originally posted by Big Bruno:
I do not know how long you have been on the Neo scene Kiselgof. But if you have been here for awhile surely you can see a NGF dominated neo market would by the final nail in the coffin of the Neo for home users. But if you feel differently then please debate, it is good to hear opposing views.
[This message has been edited by Big Bruno (edited December 29, 2000).]

Click to expand...

Not as long as you, Phil. I do remember a lot of previous NGF issues however, going back to the claims of "European official" orange-striped inserts and other crap I have put out of my mind. Does one right correct many wrongs? Not entirely. However, NGF's "maniac" obsession with the Neo is what pushes everybody else so hard to compete with them. If they are the ones artificially inflating the home cart prices, then it is because the Neo is going out of style with the die-hard collectors and becoming a novelty item for people who think all of the games should be $50 a pop. I do not believe a NGF-dominated market would be beneficial, as in any market where a monopoly dominated. However, until somebody else takes the action in investing the amount of money necessary to convince SNK-Japan to continue supporting the home market, that is all we may be left with. I am all for people creating new artwork and coming up with new ideas but it takes real influence and long-standing ties in the hobby to make an impact with SNK-Japan. If other people want to invest the amount of time necessary in establishing some relationships, I would be all for that. Once again, I don't believe that I have ever advocated a NGF-dominated market, nor have I even advocated purhasing from them. I was detailing a different viewpoint that is usually not seen on these anti-NGF dominated forums.

Sincerely,

Kale

I do not believe a NGF-dominated market would be beneficial, as in any market where a monopoly dominated. However, until somebody else takes the action in investing the amount of money necessary to convince SNK-Japan to continue supporting the home market, that is all we may be left with. I am all for people creating new artwork and coming up with new ideas but it takes real influence and long-standing ties in the hobby to make an impact with SNK-Japan.

Click to expand...

Once again your logic is twisted, Kiselgof. You don't think that we believe for one minute that NGF "takes the action in investing the amount of money necessary to convince SNK-Japan to continue supporting the home market"? What a f**king joke, NCS is out there GUARANTEEING to SNK-Japan that they will purchase a LARGE portion of the home cart production, THEY'RE the ones supporting the system a HELL OF A LOT MORE than the clowns at "NGF". NGF has NO ability to guarantee purchasing CRAP as far as production quantities go, and do you know why? Can you take one blind, pathetic guess, Kale?

Well, let me tell you why: Because their reputation is SHIT, their past business practices have been a JOKE (did you forget that Mouse_Master had to call the State's Attorney in MD and report his ripoff in order to get compensation?), their attitude is idiotic and condescending (are you a BIG TYMER, Kale? Do you have the CRUMP?), they deliver damaged, fake, and low quality product (is your Neo cart system SIGNED BY DION? It should be!! And did Lee (gargoyle7) get a FAKE Ninja Master's cart? Then when sent back, did he get NOTHING IN RETURN?), they sacrifice new style carts such as KOF99 to make their crappy solder-smeared conversions, they LIE about products (did you buy a MV-1B IM-only MVS motherboard from them? Why not?) and the list goes ON AND ON.

You obviously don't give a SHIT about all the above, and much more that they've pulled over the years. If Dion paid or bribed you to post your ridiculous praise for his "company", it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If he didn't, then you're either an idiot, a fraud, or . . . yes the final and ultimate, a BIG TYMER!!!! ALL BOW DOWN TO THE NGF BIGTYMER, KISELGOF!!! LISTEN TO HIS WORDS OF WISDOM, BUY THE "NGF" "ENGLISH" "AUTHENTIC" KOF 2000 HOME CART, AND YOU TOO CAN BECOME A BIGTYMER, AND EVEN GET A FREE POSTER!!!

Please, give us a break!

Then maybe you can see my view on the whole thing and why I will not support Neo Geo Freak. I will agree they have friends at SNK or at least people they Know. But thier business pratices are just to warped and self motivated for my taste. I can not see them having really any hugh impact on a homecart release. After all a hundred cart order on a 10,000 cart production just does not hold to much weight. Maybe if SNK Japan decided to do another home cart run then they might buy the rights to do another english translation. But Personaly I would buy a Japanese cart just becuase of what I have seen NGF do in the past. I am sure they will still do conversions of unreleased homecarts and who knows maybe even buy the rights of a few games that were never finished being developed like ghost loop. Maybe this is even thier plan for the future titles they have talked about who knows.

I will agree the NGF "Manical Obession" is what has pushed some. Although when I ran into !Arcade! he did not even Know who they were when he was talking to me about his convertor so NGF was little motivation to him, at least in making that device. I am sure though when he saw the price of their IM he was probably motivated to make his own. but the fact he was offering it for $800 which is over $1000 less then what NGF wants to sell thiers for goes back to what I feel is their overcharging efforts.

It is just to many wrongs for me and I do not see that it is going to stop happening in the future with them.

I do understand your point that nobody else my be making the efforts to establish releations with SNK. But there are many talents out thier doing thier part like mike of Neo news, Trey with his inserts, jeff with his neo services and !Arcade! with his new products. I also agree that SNK japan really could care less about the home market. The amount of preorders they gathered up from places like NCS and others played more of a factor on this homecart release then NGF. But there will always be converted carts or convertors to play MVS games in the future.

The neo market has changed and the die hard collectors are getting few and far between. But would $50 games be so bad for others wanting to enjoy the Neo. Sure you and I would not sell any of are carts. But I would not mind my nephew or some playstation attic getting a $50 Metal Slug home cart and a Neo geo and playing it for several hours, days, weeks, months. I am sure it will not come to that extreme and if it did the neo market would surely be dead. But Trying to keep the pricing up by force is going to accomplish the same results.

Chipmeister,

Really I think we can all agree that we are neo fans here. Kiselgof is entittled to what he believes in also and has chosen to purchase from NGF For his decessions. It is just like as I bought from NCS for many years and as compliants started to arise from them I stated never had a problem with them. He is not telling everyone to go out and buy from NGF at all so there is really no need for an attack, even if he was. At least in this thread. Just as I trust Geddon_it's oppion to buy for his own reasons. And I have stated mine already.

As neo fans it is important to discuss this matter. If we all agree that NGF is not the best path for the neo then we should all work together to decided what would be best. or we Can argue back and forth until we are further divided. And then we all lose.

Chimp, thanks but no thanks for another curseword, accusation filled rant that really has nothing to do with the issue. Notice how civil everyone else is communicating? I expect that if it is ever proven 100% that this is a legit cart, you will still pipe in with your "take your overpriced cart, I will never support NGF" regardless of the true issue at hand - the cart's legitimacy.

Phil, nice post and well said. You and everyone else is certainly entitled to feel any way you want about NGF. The ONLY goal Kale and I have in this whole situation is to find 100% infallible, indisputable proof one way or the other of the carts legitimacy.

Your last paragraph brings up an interesting point. There is a very different view between the majority of neo fans (like people on this board) and NGF and other long time collectors. There are exceptions in each case... but it is easy to see why NGF strives to keep prices high. They, and other long time collectors, were around since the beginning and spent $200 on games that are worthless now - AOF, FF1 etc. Being involved in the neo and having such a history with it brings a tendency to want to protect your investment however you can.

Other people who arent fortunate enough to have the games they want desire prices to be cheaper so they can increase their collections and have easy access to the games they want.

I'm just trying to illustrate the opposing viewpoints here. It really does create a rift amongst neo fans...

Actually I thought I was being pretty nice about my comments . . . I even ended my post with a very thoughtful, non-offensive statement and a few little rolleyes guys . . . very mellow stuff, I thought.

Originally posted by chimpmeister:
You obviously don't give a SHIT about all the above, and much more that they've pulled over the years. If Dion paid or bribed you to post your ridiculous praise for his "company", it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If he didn't, then you're either an idiot, a fraud, or . . . yes the final and ultimate, a BIG TYMER!!!! ALL BOW DOWN TO THE NGF BIGTYMER, KISELGOF!!! LISTEN TO HIS WORDS OF WISDOM, BUY THE "NGF" "ENGLISH" "AUTHENTIC" KOF 2000 HOME CART, AND YOU TOO CAN BECOME A BIGTYMER, AND EVEN GET A FREE POSTER!!!

Please, give us a break!

Click to expand...

LOL!!! Get off the pipe dude. You can't win a logical argument so you just resort to ad hominims. Once again, for the slow people, I AM NOT ADVISING ANYONE TO BUY ANYTHING. I am just providing information to the public about a GOOD deal that I had, since nobody else has done so recently. John is doing the same thing. Dion has offered to recruit me as a salesman and I refused. I don't need to, because I just tell the truth as I see it.

Sincerely,

Kale

Originally posted by Big Bruno:
I do understand your point that nobody else my be making the efforts to establish releations with SNK. But there are many talents out thier doing thier part like mike of Neo news, Trey with his inserts, jeff with his neo services and !Arcade! with his new products. I also agree that SNK japan really could care less about the home market. The amount of preorders they gathered up from places like NCS and others played more of a factor on this homecart release then NGF. But there will always be converted carts or convertors to play MVS games in the future.

Click to expand...

Phil, I can see your points perfectly. I am all for competition to drive the prices down and keep the quality up. Your opinion is a very positive one and I just hope that all of the points you mention can continue to evolve. The only thing I might disagree with you on is the worth of Neo Geo cartridges. The rarity and luxury of this niche hobby is what keeps us separated from the fad wagon. It's the need to be different from the standard crowd of sheep playing their Playstations and Dreamcast imports. We don't dabble in video games, we are connoisseurs.

Sincerely,

Kale

As for your last post GEDDON, you missed the mark pretty badly. Where?

Chimp, thanks but no thanks for another curseword, accusation filled rant that really has nothing to do with the issue.

Click to expand...

"Nothing to do with the issue"? Read the ISSUE TITLE in this thread, MR. MODERATOR. What does it say? OK, let me repeat it for you here if you can't read it there:

[bold] Topic: Why not to support NGF regardless of KOF2K [/bold]

OK, now that you see the TOPIC, tell me this, why does my long post, SPECIFICALLY MENTIONING PAST PROBLEMS WITH NGF (did you just selectively forget all those problems in your eagerness to get your hands on a "rare, English" copy of KOF2000?) have "nothing to do with the issue"? To the contrary, it has EVERYTHING to do with the issue, it cites ALL THE REASONS why people here would NOT support "NGF". See?

And as for this quote from you Geddon:

The ONLY goal Kale and I have in this whole situation is to find 100% infallible, indisputable proof one way or the other of the carts legitimacy.

Click to expand...

Lets fill in the implied remainder. "I don't CARE about their past business practices, I don't CARE who was ripped off, I don't CARE about their attitude, I don't CARE about the fake carts (with "NGF" inserts) they sold, I don't CARE about anything else but this: if the KOF2K "English" cart is authentic, and I can get my own precious copy, THEN I care"

Thats how it comes out Geddon. Not pretty, not pleasant, but thats how you look. Sorry to point it out to you, I'd think you would have seen it earlier . . .

Originally posted by chimpmeister:
As for your last post GEDDON, you missed the mark pretty badly. Where?

Lets fill in the implied remainder. "I don't CARE about their past business practices, I don't CARE who was ripped off, I don't CARE about their attitude, I don't CARE about the fake carts (with "NGF" inserts) they sold, I don't CARE about anything else but this: if the KOF2K "English" cart is authentic, and I can get my own precious copy, THEN I care"

Thats how it comes out Geddon. Not pretty, not pleasant, but thats how you look. Sorry to point it out to you, I'd think you would have seen it earlier . . .

Click to expand...

Chimp, I better fill in my post too:

"I don't CARE about their past business practices, I don't CARE who was ripped off, I don't CARE about their attitude, I don't CARE about the fake carts (with "NGF" inserts) they sold." All I care about in terms of Neo Geo is MY COLLECTION. I also care about the mental well-being of whatever intelligent people I come in contact with. That is the reason for my dilectic on the entire subject of the KOF2000 AES US.

Sincerely,

Kale

Kiselgof, thanks for at least admitting to how you feel about the situation. It makes it much easier to understand where you're coming from . . .

Chimp, chat room?

[This message has been edited by kiselgof (edited December 29, 2000).]