US/UK Vs Iraq 'Coalition' in shock change of tactics.

Metal Slug

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News reports today have suggested that coalition forces are planning on 'laying siege' to Baghdad!

But not 'siege' in usual terms!
This plan involves cutting the city off, and trying to pursuade those inhabitants opposed to Saddam to throw their lives away in a futile attempt to oust the dictator and his heavily armed elite guard.

This marks a change of tactics from 'we will liberate you, shower us with flowers' to 'Do it your-selves you ungreatful bastards'.

Well, if the plan works, and the opposition DO rise up against Saddam, then once he has slaughtered them all who will be left to shower our troops with flowers, and welcome them as the liberating heroes our governments promised?


BTW.
One of the BBC's embedded reporters, yesterday quoted a high ranking US officer as saying 'I just want to go home now! I'm already sick of this god-damned war'.
Apparently he wanted to remain annonymous!
I wonder why that is :)
 
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It times like this I wish General Patton or Curtis Lemay were still around and in their positions. With them in charge we'd put aside these ridiculous "Rules of Engagement" and go in there and knock them the fuck out, get the job and come home. The world only has a chance against the free world because we try that whole "Rule of War" mindset that the British had when they fought against the American resistance in the Revolution.

Guy on horse: "Those bloody bastards! They're not fighting like gentlemen! They're hiding in the tree lines. General what do we do? The enemey refuses to fight with rules?"

Same difference. In war there truly are no rules. War is about the facilitation of change itself as the ideologies for better or worse of governing bodies send out their armed forces to FORCE a particular slant on change. Rules of engagment are only there to appease the fuckards who don't understand the very nature of war. Anyone who's a student of Sun Tzu or Hannibal, or has read the works of T.E. Lawrence and/or Ernesto "Che" Guevara would know this. In war you do what you must to survive. If American or anyone else is having a hard time of it it's because we thought it be a cake walk, and just because another nation doesn't have the tech, doesn't mean they lack the spirit/sand to fight back with gusto, not abiding by rules etc. Thus if this is going to be brought to a close, we need Patton strategy here:

"Were not just going to kill those lousy hun bastards, we're gong to use their guts to grease the treads of our tanks. Some of you wonder if you'll chicken out in the moment of truth. BUT when you put your hands, into a bunch of goo, that a moment ago was your best friends face... YOU'LL KNOW WHAT TO DO!"
---Patton.

War is war. To survive it you must become it.

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: MegaDrive 20XX ]</small>
 

Bluevoodu

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I never got "rules of engagement."

just go in there and take them out. Abandon all rules. Its war.

Just don't kill civilians thats all.

I mean, the Iraqi's are using plain clothed troops.... using US/UK outfits...


†B†V†

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Bluevoodu ]</small>
 

DangerousK

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Metal Slug:


BTW.
One of the BBC's embedded reporters, yesterday quoted a high ranking US officer as saying 'I just want to go home now! I'm already sick of this god-damned war'.
Apparently he wanted to remain annonymous!
I wonder why that is :)
The BBC has been distorting facts coming out of Iraq from their own reporters. I wouldn't be listening to too much of what they say anymore.
 

RyoGeo

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Metal Slug, I am no war monger and I am certainly not convinced that this whole thing was necessary at this particular point in time but, did it ever ocure to you that the tactic of shutting the city down is to get the people OUT of there so that they CAN blow up the tanks and such? AS is happening in the south, the residents are getting out of the town. That means they can hit the stuff that is clearly visible but near residential areas.

The fewer residents in town the fewer residents in danger of getting caught in the middle. You are clearly against the war, whcih is fine, but please don't let your view cloud an objective look at tactics. Had we wanted to destroy the Iraqi forces quickly, without regard for the citizens, this whole thing would be done with and an interim government would be in place already. With few exceptions, the only things reduced to rubble in Bagdad are those that aid the power base of Saddam.

If you really think that the US is out to kill of bunch of civilians, then I must say the US is going about operation genocide rather poorly. The reason things are slowing down is based purely on the fact that US/UK forces are trying not to kill non-combatants.

You may hate the politics, but don't get silly.

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: RyoGeo ]</small>
 

Crow_T_Robot

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I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.


God, I hate fucking hippies!!!

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Crow_T_Robot ]</small>
 

Tacitus

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Metal Slug:
BTW.
One of the BBC's embedded reporters, yesterday quoted a high ranking US officer as saying 'I just want to go home now! I'm already sick of this god-damned war'.
Apparently he wanted to remain annonymous!
I wonder why that is :)
BBC Reporter Reliability:

THERE'S A HUGE UPRISING GOING ON RIGHT NOW IN THIS CITY! I SWEAR!


Don't trust the press too much in times like these.. they fall back into the propaganda machine.
 

Tacitus

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If you want to believe the BBC and the money trail argument here's an interesting read:


<strong>

During the late 1970s, French companies started work on the Tamuz One nuclear reactor near Baghdad - designed to produce plutonium - and on a second reactor, Tamuz Two.


Mr Chirac has extensive links with Baghdad
The first was destroyed by Israeli fighter bombers in 1981.

During the Iran-Iraq war, France was soon supplying Iraq with top level military hardware of its own.

All told, France sold some $25bn-worth of weaponry to Iraq before the UN embargo was imposed after the Gulf War.

A report commissioned by the French parliament published last September puts the value of French exports to Iraq since sanctions were imposed at $3.5bn.

Agnes Levallois, a specialist in business in the Middle East, cites the example of French pharmaceutical firms, all of whom she says sell antibiotics and other basic medicines in Iraq.

Oil the spur

In July 2001, when relations chilled, Saddam froze these companies' contracts, but renewed them once diplomatic relations thawed.

Even in 2001, France sold Iraq $650m-worth of goods, more than any other country, and was the Western country with the largest number of stands at last November's Baghdad Trade Fair.

But above all, the French are interested in Iraqi oil.

Nicolas Sarkis, of Arab Oil and Gas magazine, says France's state-controlled TotalFinaElf is poised to win contracts to drill the largest unexploited oil reserves in the world.

Ahmed Chalabi, the Iraqi banker who presides the Iraqi National Council - the American-backed organisation supposed to bring democracy to a post-Saddam Iraq - has said that American firms will be given a "preponderant role".

If war is unleashed on Iraq, it will not only be a blow to French diplomacy but to French industry as well.

</strong>


Follow the money, indeed.
 

k'_127

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Crow_T_Robot:
I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.
........... and don't forget to take some oil
 

FeelGood

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VanillaThunder:
If you want to believe the BBC and the money trail argument here's an interesting read:

...


Follow the money, indeed.
And then you see where the US decided to 1-up france...

US-Iraq ties in 1980s illustrate downside of American foreign policy
uploaded 31 Dec 2002

WASHINGTON: High on the Bush administration's list of justifications for war against Iraq are President Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons, nuclear and biological programmes, and his contacts with international terrorists. What US officials rarely acknowledge is that these offences date back to a period when Saddam was seen in Washington as a valued ally.

Among those instrumental in tilting US policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war was Donald Rumsfeld, now defence secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Saddam as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of US- Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld travelled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.

The story of America's involvement with Saddam in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait - which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of chemical and biological precursors - is a topical example of the underside of US foreign policy. It is a world in which deals can be struck with dictators, human rights violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Throughout the 1980s, Saddam's Iraq was the sworn enemy of Iran, then still in the throes of an Islamic revolution. US officials saw Baghdad as a bulwark against militant Shia extremism and the fall of pro-American states like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and even Jordan - a Middle East version of the Communist "domino theory." That was enough to turn Saddam into a strategic partner and for US diplomats in Baghdad to refer routinely to Iraqi forces as "the good guys," in contrast to the Iranians, depicted as "the bad guys."

A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that US intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defences against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.

Opinions differ among Middle East experts and former government officials about the pre-Iraqi tilt, and whether Washington could have done more to have stopped the flow of technology for building weapons of mass destruction to Baghdad.

"It was a horrible mistake then, but we have got it right now," says Kenneth Pollack, a former CIA military analyst and author of "The Threatening Storm," which makes the case for war with Iraq. "My fellow (CIA) analysts and I were warning at the time that Saddam was a very nasty character. We were constantly fighting the State Department."

"Fundamentally, the policy was justified," argues David Newton, a former US ambassador to Baghdad who runs an anti-Saddam radio station in Prague, Czech Republic.

What makes present-day Saddam different from the Saddam of the 1980s, say Middle East experts, is the mellowing of the Iranian revolution and the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait that transformed the Iraqi dictator, almost overnight, from awkward ally into mortal enemy.

In addition, the United States itself has changed. As a result of the Sept 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, US policymakers take a much more alarmist view of the threat posed by the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

When the Iran-Iraq war began in September 1980, the United States was a bystander with no diplomatic relations with either Baghdad or Tehran. US officials had almost as little sympathy for Saddam's dictatorial brand of Arab nationalism as for the fundamentalism espoused by Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. As long as the two countries fought their way to a stalemate, nobody in Washington was disposed to intervene.

By summer 1982, however, the strategic picture had changed dramatically. After its initial gains, Iraq was on the defensive, and Iranian troops had advanced to within a few miles of Basra, Iraq's second largest city. US intelligence information suggested the Iranians might achieve a breakthrough on the Basra front, destabilizing Kuwait, the Gulf states and even Saudi Arabia, thereby threatening US oil supplies.

To prevent an Iraqi collapse, the Reagan administration supplied battlefield intelligence on Iranian troop buildups to the Iraqis, sometimes via third parties such as Saudi Arabia. The US tilt toward Iraq was enshrined in the National Security Decision Directive 114 of Nov 26, 1983, one of the few important Reagan-era foreign policy decisions that remains classified. According to former US officials, the directive said the United States would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran.

The presidential directive was issued amid a flurry of reportsthat Iraqi forces were using chemical weapons to hold back the Iranians. In principle, Washington strongly opposed chemical warfare, a practice outlawed by the 1925 Geneva Protocol. In practice, US condemnation of Iraqi use of chemical weapons ranked relatively low on the scale of administration priorities, particularly compared to the all-important goal of preventing an Iranian victory.

Thus on Nov 1, 1983, a senior State Department official, Jonathan Howe, told Secretary of State George Shultz that intelligence reports showed that Iraqi troops were resorting to "almost daily use of CW" against the Iranians. But the Reagan administration had already committed itself to a large-scale diplomatic and political overture to Baghdad, culminating in several visits by Rumsfeld, the president's recently appointed special envoy to the Middle East.

Secret talking points prepared for the first Rumsfeld visit to Baghdad enshrined some of the language from NSDD 114, including the statement that the United States would regard "any major reversal of Iraq's fortunes as a strategic defeat for the West." When Rumsfeld met with Saddam on Dec 20, he told the Iraqi leader that Washington was ready for a resumption of full diplomatic relations, according to a State Department report of the conversation. Iraqi leaders described themselves as "extremely pleased" with the Rumsfeld visit, which had "elevated US-Iraqi relations to a new level."

As part of its opening to Baghdad, the Reagan administration in February 1982 removed Iraq from the State Department terrorism list, despite heated objections from Congress.

Some former US officials say that removing Iraq from the terrorism list provided an incentive to Saddam to expel the Palestinian guerrilla leader Abu Nidal from Baghdad in 1983. On the other hand, Iraq continued to play host to alleged terrorists throughout the '80s. The most notable was Abu Abbas, leader of the Palestine Liberation Front.

According to a sworn court affidavit prepared by Teicher in 1995, the United States "actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required."

Teicher said in the affidavit that former CIA Director William Casey used a Chilean company, Cardoen, to supply Iraq with cluster bombs that could be used to disrupt the Iranian human wave attacks. Teicher refuses to discuss the affidavit.

At the same time the Reagan administration was facilitatingthe supply of weapons and military components to Baghdad, it was attempting to cut off supplies to Iran under "Operation Staunch." These efforts was largely successful, despite the glaring anomaly of the 1986 Iran-Contra scandal when the White House publicly admitted trading arms for hostages, in violation of the policy that the United States was trying to impose on the rest of the world.

A 1994 investigation by the Senate Banking Committee turned up dozens of biological agents shipped to Iraq during the mid-80s under license from the Commerce Department, including various strains of anthrax, subsequently identified by the Pentagon as a key component of the Iraqi biological warfare programme.

The fact that Iraq was using chemical weapons was hardly a secret. In February 1984, an Iraqi military spokesman effectively acknowledged their use by issuing a chilling warning to Iran.

In late 1987, the Iraqi air force began using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq that had formed a loose alliance with Iran, according to State Department reports. The attacks, part of a "scorched earth" strategy to eliminate rebel-controlled villages, provoked outrage on Capital Hill and renewed demands for sanctions against Iraq. The State Department and White House were also outraged - but not to the point of doing anything that might seriously damage relations with Baghdad.

"Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam," said Joe Wilson, Glaspie's former deputy in Baghdad, and the last US official to meet with Saddam. "Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behaviour. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation."

Source: The Washington Post
 

Tacitus

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Funny, I don't see them dealing with Iraq after UN sanctions were imposed.. or the invasion of Kuwait.

Who is though?

Maybe you should look at the Big 3 opposers.. the money trail is obscene.

Face it, you've painted yourself in a corner with the money argument.
 

aria

Former Moderator
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39,546
Crow_T_Robot:
I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.


God, I hate fucking hippies!!!
You're not alone:<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/goering-quote.jpg" target="_blank">LINKY</a>

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Bobak ]</small>
 

Mr. Wizard

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Iraq has prooved that this is a no holds bard war. The more Saddam breaks the rules the more humanitarian we look. Forcing people to fight by threat of death or rape of them or their family..I mean come on people there is nothing you can say to defend that kind of trechery. Wheres Rambo or Colonel John Matrix when you need them?
 

FeelGood

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VanillaThunder:
Funny, I don't see them dealing with Iraq after UN sanctions were imposed.. or the invasion of Kuwait.

Who is though?

Maybe you should look at the Big 3 opposers.. the money trail is obscene.

Face it, you've painted yourself in a corner with the money argument.
So you think that because the three opposers you mention have money ties in Iraq, nad the US doesn't, and the US was attacked by Osama Bin Laden's terrorist organization known as Al Qaeda, as opposed to being attacked by Iraq, that the US should go into Iraq, topple the government, and redistribute the money in the country completely to US businesses tied to the current republican government?

What's that called again?

An Oligarchy?

Tell me, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
 

FeelGood

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Bobak:
Crow_T_Robot:
I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.


God, I hate fucking hippies!!!
You're not alone:<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/goering-quote.jpg" target="_blank">LINKY</a>
great pic, and reference. Icredibly unbiased that you'd share that considering your stated position in this war.
 

Tacitus

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EvilWasabi:
Bobak:
Crow_T_Robot:
I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.


God, I hate fucking hippies!!!
You're not alone:<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/goering-quote.jpg" target="_blank">LINKY</a>
great pic, and reference. Icredibly unbiased that you'd share that considering your stated position in this war.
There's no fighting the absolute desire of humans to be herded.


I won't argue that, but it's not a matter of a difference of policy in this war.. or oil for that matter. Don't be deceived.
 

aria

Former Moderator
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Posts
39,546
EvilWasabi:
Bobak:
You're not alone:<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/goering-quote.jpg" target="_blank">LINKY</a>
great pic, and reference. Icredibly unbiased that you'd share that considering your stated position in this war.
Thanks,

My position is not squarely in one camp or the other:

I'm Pro-War (Saddam can only be removed by force), but I'm embarrassed by the governments alleged "reasoning".

It's a just war for unjust reasons. (Daddy, daddy! Oil, Oil!)

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Bobak ]</small>
 

aria

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DangerousK:
The BBC has been distorting facts coming out of Iraq from their own reporters. I wouldn't be listening to too much of what they say anymore.
So has Fox, CNN and Al Jazeera.

What else is new wink :D
 

Mr. Wizard

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Bobak:
Crow_T_Robot:
I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.


God, I hate fucking hippies!!!
You're not alone:<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/goering-quote.jpg" target="_blank">LINKY</a>
That all depends on what you feel your going to war for. One person could say theyre going to war cuz their country called. Another could say they are their to protect their country and way of life. Another could say they are their to help their fellow man and the spread of freedom. Another could say they are there just for the expeirience. There are many reasons but my point is in America you can choose to go to war for what ever reason you want or not without the threat of death. Even if there is a draft you can do like Clenton and run to Canada and come back later :rolleyes: . That link does not apply to America. Fact of matter is that no one forced our troopes to sign up for millitary service. It was their choice so now they have to back it up. If there is a draft then its different but like I said if you dont like the American government chosen by its people at this time then you could always take a nice long international vacation or protest or whatever. Difference of opinion goes hand in hand with freedom. Sometimes you have peace sometimes you have war.

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Wizard ]</small>
 

simon

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But above all, the French are interested in Iraqi oil.

Nicolas Sarkis, of Arab Oil and Gas magazine, says France's state-controlled TotalFinaElf is poised to win contracts to drill the largest unexploited oil reserves in the world.

Ahmed Chalabi, the Iraqi banker who presides the Iraqi National Council - the American-backed ides the organisation supposed to bring democracy to a post-Saddam Iraq - has said that American firms will be given a "preponderant role".

If war is unleashed on Iraq, it will not only be a blow to French diplomacy but to French industry as well.
Consider taking Mth 101, 102, 103 "The basics of a logical reasoning leading to the path of common sense" (4,4,4) next semester.

If France had agreed on a war since the begining, and sent troop along the US/UK coalition, there would have been no reasons to kick Total-Fina-Elf from the region. Hence the French industry wouldn't have been affected.

But but fore some reasons ( perhaps another interpretation of Christian values and morals ), France prefered not to mix it's policy with private interests. Yes it's opposed from Dick Cheney's "Lets make a quick war as soon as possible so that our firms can get new contracts quickly, in a lame attempt to restart our economy by making money off of dead flesh" policy. Both are arguable, but I don't see why ours was wrong.


Your report is as dumb as the boycott calls which pop up everywhere on the net, calling for boycott of things like : MoTown Records, Jerry Springer ( I know, the link with France is vague at best, but if they say so let's boycott ), Renault cars which aren't even imported in the States, or even more funny : Yves Saint Laurent Rive Gauche suits and tailor-made dresses, King size Channel n°5 perfume bottles, Moet Champagne, Gucci, Cartier... Considering the price tags on these items, 99.9% of Americans are boycotting without even knowing it. It's like boycotting Italy by raising tarrifs on Ferraris.

It's as lame as the report we had one week ago, listing companies dealing with Irak, and which erased all the brands except French and German ones, as if someone was dumb enough to believe that Irak imports were all about specialised water pumps.

If you want your document to be somehow plausible, get some comparaison figures. Quoting the US sales figures aside the "$25bn worth of wearponry", so that everyone could check how wide the gap was would be more interesting indeed.

BTW, I'm glad France was selling "antibiotics and other basic medicines in Iraq" while others countries were providing Anthrax and VX. But this is yet another interpretation of values and morals

<strong>
Iraqi National Council - the American-backed organisation supposed to bring democracy to a post-Saddam Iraq
"American backed" democracy with "American backed" free elections ? Did George W. Bush the far-right Christian realised that turning Irak into a far-right heavy Islamic regime wasn't that great for his interests after all ?
 

smokey

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Crow_T_Robot:
I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.


God, I hate fucking hippies!!!
And I blame every coalition and iraqi death to the stupidity of you and Bush
 

FeelGood

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VanillaThunder:
EvilWasabi:
Bobak:
Crow_T_Robot:
I blame these anti-war, peacenik dickheads for EVERY Coalition death. "Oh, We must play nice, be cautious, not target civilians".......FUCK THAT!!! This is WAR!!! Our people are dying due to this PC bullshit. Let's fly in, level the whole fucking town, then rebuild it on their corpses. Cheaper in the long run.


God, I hate fucking hippies!!!
You're not alone:<a href="http://www.bartcop.com/goering-quote.jpg" target="_blank">LINKY</a>
great pic, and reference. Icredibly unbiased that you'd share that considering your stated position in this war.
There's no fighting the absolute desire of humans to be herded.


I won't argue that, but it's not a matter of a difference of policy in this war.. or oil for that matter. Don't be deceived.
take your own advise - don't be deceived. Everyone has an agenda, and historically, no nation goes out just to liberate another nation, much less sends in 200,000 troops to remove one man.
 

Mr. Wizard

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Posts
918
Simon:
But above all, the French are interested in Iraqi oil.

Nicolas Sarkis, of Arab Oil and Gas magazine, says France's state-controlled TotalFinaElf is poised to win contracts to drill the largest unexploited oil reserves in the world.

Ahmed Chalabi, the Iraqi banker who presides the Iraqi National Council - the American-backed ides the organisation supposed to bring democracy to a post-Saddam Iraq - has said that American firms will be given a "preponderant role".

If war is unleashed on Iraq, it will not only be a blow to French diplomacy but to French industry as well.
Consider taking Mth 101, 102, 103 "The basics of a logical reasoning leading to the path of common sense" (4,4,4) next semester.

If France had agreed on a war since the begining, and sent troop along the US/UK coalition, there would have been no reasons to kick Total-Fina-Elf from the region. Hence the French industry wouldn't have been affected.

But but fore some reasons ( perhaps another interpretation of Christian values and morals ), France prefered not to mix it's policy with private interests. Yes it's opposed from Dick Cheney's "Lets make a quick war as soon as possible so that our firms can get new contracts quickly, in a lame attempt to restart our economy by making money off of dead flesh" policy. Both are arguable, but I don't see why ours was wrong.


Your report is as dumb as the boycott calls which pop up everywhere on the net, calling for boycott of things like : MoTown Records, Jerry Springer ( I know, the link with France is vague at best, but if they say so let's boycott ), Renault cars which aren't even imported in the States, or even more funny : Yves Saint Laurent Rive Gauche suits and tailor-made dresses, King size Channel n°5 perfume bottles, Moet Champagne, Gucci, Cartier... Considering the price tags on these items, 99.9% of Americans are boycotting without even knowing it. It's like boycotting Italy by raising tarrifs on Ferraris.

It's as lame as the report we had one week ago, listing companies dealing with Irak, and which erased all the brands except French and German ones, as if someone was dumb enough to believe that Irak imports were all about specialised water pumps.

If you want your document to be somehow plausible, get some comparaison figures. Quoting the US sales figures aside the "$25bn worth of wearponry", so that everyone could check how wide the gap was would be more interesting indeed.

BTW, I'm glad France was selling "antibiotics and other basic medicines in Iraq" while others countries were providing Anthrax and VX. But this is yet another interpretation of values and morals

<strong>
Iraqi National Council - the American-backed organisation supposed to bring democracy to a post-Saddam Iraq
"American backed" democracy with "American backed" free elections ? Did George W. Bush the far-right Christian realised that turning Irak into a far-right heavy Islamic regime wasn't that great for his interests after all ?
Blame the man not God. Its amazing how "lead by example" affects peoples whole judgment on something. Please dont take Bush as the imbodyment of Christian morals and values. Take the Bible (if you truely understand it) as the moral values that Christians are supposted to uphold not the people that try to uphold them as humans will always fall short of perfection.
 

Tacitus

Volatile Memory Construct - SN://0467839
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EvilWasabi:
VanillaThunder:
Funny, I don't see them dealing with Iraq after UN sanctions were imposed.. or the invasion of Kuwait.

Who is though?

Maybe you should look at the Big 3 opposers.. the money trail is obscene.

Face it, you've painted yourself in a corner with the money argument.
So you think that because the three opposers you mention have money ties in Iraq, nad the US doesn't, and the US was attacked by Osama Bin Laden's terrorist organization known as Al Qaeda, as opposed to being attacked by Iraq, that the US should go into Iraq, topple the government, and redistribute the money in the country completely to US businesses tied to the current republican government?

What's that called again?

An Oligarchy?

Tell me, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
No, but the 3 of them rank among the top countries that reap money from Iraq. By prolonging the conflict before and now opposing it, they are positioning themselves to make quite a $$$. Face it, they're protecting their investment.


Secondly, Saddam <strong>openly</strong> funds terrorism. Hamas being the principle beneficiary of this policy. Al Qaeda operatives are in and out of several countries over there. He has gassed and slaughtered his own people.

If you'd like to keep a guy who does that in power and try to keep him in check by feeding him $$$, then you have a very narrow view of the world. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Feed him $$$ to fund suicide bombers. Smart move. :rolleyes:

That's not taking into account my take on the Palestinian conflict. All things being equal I think they're getting the royal screw job. I do think however, Saddam has a good amount of influence on that and eliminating him will seriously damper conflict in Israel, even if for a short time.

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: VanillaThunder ]</small>
 

SSS

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Iraq rebuilding contracts awarded

Halliburton, Stevedoring Services of America get government contracts for early relief work.
March 25, 2003: 4:33 PM EST
By Mark Gongloff, CNN/Money Staff Writer



NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The first contracts for rebuilding post-war Iraq have been awarded, and Vice President Dick Cheney's old employer, Halliburton Co., is one of the early winners.

The Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) unit of Halliburton (HAL: up $0.54 to $20.66, Research, Estimates), of which Cheney was CEO from 1995 to 2000, said late Monday that it was awarded a contract by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to put out oil fires and make emergency repairs to Iraq's oil infrastructure.

President Bush Tuesday asked Congress for $489.3 million to cover the cost of repairing damage to Iraq's oil facilities, much or all of which could go to Halliburton or its subcontractors under the terms of its contract with the Army.


Cheney divested himself of all interest in Halliburton, the largest U.S. oilfield services company, after the 2000 election.

Halliburton wouldn't speculate about the total monetary value or duration of its contract, under which it will put into action some of the firefighting and repair plans it outlined for the Army in a study it conducted in November.

"KBR's ... contract is limited to task orders under the contract for only those services which are necessary to support the mission in the near term," Halliburton spokeswoman Wendy Hall said.

The Army Corps of Engineers told CNN Tuesday that Halliburton would be paid on a "cost plus" basis, meaning it would be reimbursed for the costs of its work and would get a certain percentage of those costs as a fee.

Since it's still unknown how much damage has been or will be done to Iraqi oil fields in the war, it's difficult to estimate the contract's eventual dollar value.

But its biggest value could be that it puts Halliburton in a prime position to handle the complete refurbishment of Iraq's long-neglected oil infrastructure, which will be a plum job.

Getting Iraq's oil fields to pre-1991 production levels will take at least 18 months and cost about $5 billion initially, with $3 billion more in annual operating expenses, according to a recent study by the James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy at Rice University, named for the first President Bush's secretary of state during the first Gulf War.

"Certainly Halliburton would have the lead [in the competition for that job], even absent this contract, given the size and scope of their current operations," said Pierre Conner, an analyst with Hibernia Southcoast Capital. "But there's no question they'll start with some footprint there. It clearly puts them in the position where they will know more about the situation and have a bit of an operation there."

Though none of the potential administrators of such a contract -- including the Defense Department, the State Department's U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and the United Nations -- have claimed responsibility for handing out the job, Monday's award and Bush's request for funding seem to indicate the U.S. government will be in charge.

Halliburton said it has subcontracted the firefighting portion of the Army contract to Houston-based companies Boots & Coots International Well Control Inc. (WEL: up $0.06 to $1.16, Research, Estimates) and Wild Well Control Inc., a private company.


Hall of Halliburton said all oil fires should be put out within 240 days. Very few oil wells have been set ablaze by Iraqis so far, in contrast to the first Gulf War in 1991, when Iraqi troops retreating from Kuwait set fire to more than 700 Kuwaiti oil wells. Halliburton's KBR unit was involved in putting out the 1991 fires.

Separately, USAID late Monday awarded a $4.8 million contract to Stevedoring Services of America (SSA), a private company based in Seattle, to manage the Umm Qasr ports in southern Iraq.

Umm Qasr's ports, where U.S. and British troops have struggled for full control, are seen as critical to efforts to bring humanitarian relief to Iraqis. SSA will handle several tasks, including assessing the need for dredging and repairs to the ports, and unloading and warehousing cargo.

USAID plans to issue seven other contracts, including one for $600 million for general construction work in post-war Iraq. Halliburton is among several companies reported to have put in bids for that contract.
 
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