Are you sometimes frightened by the actions of religious people?

neobuyer · Jun 18, 2001

Read this story: http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/4255418

Yeah, lets let BOTH children die, it's God's will after all...

I'm gonna say this even if it offends some of our more devout members here:

It is totally obvious that everything that happens in the world is totally random, and it is patently absurd to think that there is any kind of magical spirit "Willing" things to happen.

Is it God's "Will" that children be born with fucking brain cancer and die at 8 years old?

Is it God's "Will" that innocent children be blown to pieces by terrorist bombs?

Hopefully this sort of thing will go away as the world advances, but is is kind of disturbing that people still think this way in the 21st century.

Metal Slug · Jun 18, 2001

You are FAST becoming my hero, Neobuyer!

This issue caused a lot of discussion in the U.K. We are sort of famous for not letting Religous fanatics kill their kids! Every couple of years there is a high profile case like this one, or some Jehovas Witnesses wont let their kid have a transfusion etc, etc.
Now dont get me wrong, If you are over 18 and you wanna let yourself die for lack of proper medical attention, then whatever!
But to force kids, who havent got a F'in clue whats happening to them anyway, and are only that religion because their parents tell them they are, to go without treatment that will save their lives! Well Its murder in my eyes!
I totally agree with all of your comments!

Good F'in on you!

As a final note, I saw on telly last night that they are now pleased that their little girl has been saved, and are calling it a miracle!!!!!

BTW. Where are you? Sorry but I'm not used to anyone thinking like I do around here!

-------------------------------

I just remembered, you're in the States, aren't you?

WOW!

<Edited for religous reasons!>

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Metal Slug ]

neobuyer · Jun 18, 2001

Originally posted by Metal Slug:

I totally agree with all of your comments!

Good F'in on you!

As a final note, I saw on telly last night that they are now pleased that their little girl has been saved, and are calling it a miracle!!!!!

BTW. Where are you? Sorry but I'm not used to anyone thinking like I do around here!

-------------------------------

I just remembered, you're in the States, aren't you?

WOW!

<Edited for religous reasons!>

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Metal Slug ]

Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles, CA, USA.

I'm glad to see a fellow sane person here as well!

Cheers!

Lou Gojira · Jun 19, 2001

I agree 100% neobuyer. I don't know if you're a religious person yourself or not, but I'm a Christian, and it burns me up to see people pulling this "It's God's will..." crapola. I'll tell you an interesting comparison, if the person saying "God's will..." happens to be wearing glasses, ask them why they're doing so. Thing is, if God had wanted them to have perfect vision, He would'nt have had them born near-sighted or far-sighted, right? So to chalk every single thing up to an act on God's part, is really kinda' fruity. I mean jeez, guys do good at second-guessing women, and it's not very often they're right on track. What gives these nimrods the idea they can second-guess The Almighty?

I personally think God gave humans intelligence so they could take matters into their own hands, and figure things out for themselves. Why do you think the Bible says "The Lord helps those who help themselves." Like I said before, it's sad that one of the biggest detractors from Christianity are some of the Christians themselves...

neobuyer · Jun 19, 2001

Darn you Lou,

People like you give belief in God a good name... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

I myself am a dyed-in-the-wool Atheist.

That being said, I have a great respect for people's PERSONAL beliefs. (Personal being the KEY word here..)

I am a 21st century man, I view modern man as the proud heir of 10,000 years of progressively intellectual thinking...The slow progression of man out of the pit of superstition.

I want to look optimistically towards the future. I want us, as a people, to experience a dramatic lessening in Human suffering, a massive bloom of knowledge in the face of ignorance, a Rennaisance of optimistic, forward thinking... The future.

Therefore, it is my opinion that religion should be relegated to PERSONAL BELIEF only.

NO government should EVER base ANY sort of law or public policy on ANY religious belief, EVER.

The BIG difference between my beliefs (Which I hold very dear, though not beyond reproach) and those of many religious people is that my beliefs can apply to any person... of any faith, creed or ethnicity.

I refuse to be blinded by the EFFLUVIA of human existance, I will keep on being an independant, forward-thinking individualist.

The thing that sucks about thinking this way is that there seem to be few people of this philosophy nowadays...

neobuyer · Jun 19, 2001

Originally posted by Lou Gojira:
I mean jeez, guys do good at second-guessing women, and it's not very often they're right on track. What gives these nimrods the idea they can second-guess The Almighty?

BTW, good point Lou...

Speaking as a GUY here (well, a non-Christian guy) for a sec, I just want to say that WHAT GUY IN HIS RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER WANT TO OUTLAW ABORTION????

What if, through no fault of your own, you accidentally Fathered a child?

What if, like me, you don't want any children?

Yeah.. Good idea guys, let's make abortion ILLEGAL... yeah, that makes a lot of sense...

ARRGGHH.....

Daisuke Jigen · Jun 19, 2001

I don't understand why people can't affirm their religous beliefs without foisting them upon others. It seems like Jehovas witnesses, krishnas, christians, muslims, and whatever else believe they won't get to go to heaven if they don't convert others. News flash: God is not running a YMCA. You don't get a better membership to eternity for recriting new members.

About the abortion thing: I won't say either side is wrong, but I will say this: There is no one right answer for every situation.

Neo Rasa · Jun 19, 2001

Over-zealous religious people suck. If I believed for even one second that God's WILL involves letting children die as such I would renounce my religion that same second.

evil wasabi · Jun 19, 2001

I despise religion,i have tattoos that represent my hate of religion,i hate religion so much im willing to go through some pain and a permenant mark to prove i hate it,true they are demonic desighns but that was cos i turned slightly satanic from my hate in religion,actually the tattoos are cos im into metal but i based the desighns on hate towards religion there also about death,i also pick them cos i liked them so...

Why do i hate it? first of all i dont like the way they take something that was written 2000 years ago at face value and as fact,they are obviously not reading between the lines and looking for the true meaning,
thats if there even is a fucking true meaning
to me its a load of hallucogenic nonsense probably written by one person who just discovered LSD.

Whats wrong with whats written?
Mary and joseph fucked out of wedlock and in them days women who fucked out of wedlock were stoned to death,so mary got pregnant and had to make something up so she made up the story that jesus her son was the son of god,of coarse in them days with a well imagined story people would beleave what you said,that is the essence of the bible from then on; a load of tales.There is no proof that anything in the bible happened,and to all but the stupidest of people none of it can happen.

Ok so its the book of lies what harm can that do,its just a book?
Yeah just a book a book that has cost people lives through war,ok thats mans fault the whole thing is for beleaving such crap,you cant turn the clock back but we can kill religion today and save the future lives of many.
I hate jehovas and organised religions,they are evil;they dont beleave in blood tranfusions...oh dear,you see if you get into a nasty accident not all are fatal but you can lose a lot of blood you often need to be given blood,jehovas would rather turn round and say no let me die its gods will
than let modern treatment save them,ok so there all morons but and the big but is there children grow up that way and they tell the doctors to let there children die
if they need blood,that breaks me up that they feed there children on there crap and then if they need to saved they have there life taken away.
There all evil scum,i can tell you from my experience of being here that there is no god,
and an afterlife seems proposterous until i see proof of either with my own eyes ill never beleave in such outragous garbage.

Religion kill's:
I am strictly antichristian so well end on this strange note that i discovered a while back:
my birthdate is 14/4/1980
1+4+4=9 1+8=9 and your left with 9+0=9
haha 999 other way 666
the other is in my name
MARK SCOTT-HORNE
if you take all the letters and add them together numericaly from alphebet ie;m is the 13 letter of the alphebet a is the 1st and continue to add up like that you get
180 thats 18 and 6+6+6=18
whoa spooky stuff,ive always been against religion so its obviously my birthrite.
Although i take this with a pinch of salt cos i beleave the entire bible and all religions are full of shit.
<IMG SRC="smilies/veryangry.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/veryangry.gif" border="0">

Devil_Gans · Jun 19, 2001

actually i have no religion.i don't believe in god.i'm a free-thinker.to my knowledge if its god's will to let children die,i think that type religion is satanism.i don't believe in that too.

koolking · Jun 19, 2001

It doesn't matter if you have a religon or not but you have to take into consideration that events as the Crusades, Black Death and Spanish Inquisition are but to name a few of the wrongs commited by the church.

searchingtom · Jun 19, 2001

Why are we here ?

evil wasabi · Jun 19, 2001

Originally posted by searchingtom:
Why are we here ?

Common question,but i beleave that apart from intelligence we are no different from any other living being on this planet,none of us have souls or are controled by a superior being,our purpose is what is set by evolution and nature,that is to stay alive
and to breed.And that my friend is it,no special purpose were no different from anything else we just know we exist and know our mortality.

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: snknutball ]

neobuyer · Jun 19, 2001

Originally posted by snknutball:
...Why do i hate it? first of all i dont like the way they take something that was written 2000 years ago at face value and as fact...

Good point.

It IS really odd that people are willing to base their whole lives around the writings of what were essentially cultists from 2,000 years back.

What would the 12 apostles do if they were here today? Would they solve our problems? Would they change the world?

No, they would be scared shitless by the flying 'metal birds' in the sky and our magical 'talking picture boxes'.

C'mon, trusting the people who wrote the Bible about the nature of the universe is about as good an idea as hiring a heroin addict to do your taxes.

Metal Slug · Jun 19, 2001

Whoa!
I've just had a "religious" experience!
It was reading a thread with so much common sense, in amonst so many firmly held beliefs!

WELL DONE EVERYONE!

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: Metal Slug ]

Lou Gojira · Jun 19, 2001

I used to hang out every once in a while with this one guy in high school who was a Jehovah's Witness. I will say this, even though a lot (and I do mean a lot) of their personal beliefs are nutty as hell, they can at least go and base them on something in the Bible. But even then, it's really kinda' sad how they go about it...

The whole blood-transfusion thing is what messes me up. Like you guys, it angers me to think they'd let a kid die over this belief. But here's the kicker, where the Bible talks about this (if you wanna constitute it as that) is in reference to animal blood. The Bible speaks against CONSUMING blood, you know, like how hunters will sometimes drink the blood of one of their kills or something like that. So, the Jehovah's Witnesses think that, if you can be fed intraveinously, if you're getting blood pumped into your arm, it's the same as eatting it, so in essence you're consuming the blood. Well, if we wanna get technical here, why aren't the Jehovah's Witnesses on a strictly kosher diet? Surely all the blood droplets aren't drained out of the McDonald's hamburgers...

Another thing they don't believe in is celebrating birthdays. Why? Because Christ never celebrated his birthday, at least the Bible never talked about Him doing it. But then, if you wanna get technical on this one too, the Bible never talked about Jesus using the bathroom either. Are you sending your soul to hell everytime you lift or sit on that lid? But see? Like snknutball pointed out, they take everything at face value, and damn do they ever twist it...

Myself, I can see where the Christians and such want to spread the news of their beliefs. Sure, they take it too far, they take themselves way too seriously, and I'm not connected with any organized religion myself (though I was raised Baptist). But I can say this, they are not alone. I've seen overzealous atheists get up in people's faces just as much as any Bible-thumping Christian, looking down their nose at anybody that puts their belief in an unseen deity. What about the homosexuals that want to push their lifestyles into the faces of people who would rather not view it? Look at how Marilyn Manson and Trent Reznor have pretty much based their careers on bashing people who believe in Christ. These are just a few examples, but there's plenty more out there. Yeah, the Christians are pushy, but they're not alone. I'm not saying that justifies the pushiness, because two wrongs seldom if ever make a right. But, I'm saying it's human nature to wanna convince others, at least it seems like that to me...

This could be a very deep thread folks. That's like the abortion issue, I could get started on that, but I've got a few things to do here shortly. In case this goes further, keep in mind I'm not "trying to prove anybody wrong" or "force my beliefs", but I am a sucker for a debate.

Thanks...

evil wasabi · Jun 19, 2001

Lou made a good point when he mentioned the taking at face value and twisting it,cos whatever true meaning existed in the bible
it aint there no more,that thing has been Re-written a thousand times,its kinda like chinese whispers somethings gonna get muddled along the way people get it wrong
and that leads to bloodshed.
The other point made by neobuyer is the fact that 2000 years ago anything that we take for granted today may seem supernatural back then,to stress the point what if jesus wasnt learning carpentry but learning conjuring tricks and some clever medicine,what if he was just very clever for the time a sort of con artist that wanted to draw attention to himself by showing off his tricks,they would have certainly be seen as magic then,show that crap today and claim your the son of god,go on try it youll be in a straight jacket before you can say jesus christ.
If you wanna be even more outragous you could follow the theory that jesus was an alien hence all the weird goings on,anything is more feasable than being the son of god.
Thats what its all about,coming up with the most feasable answer not what you want to beleave,some of us want to beleave in an afterlife and god and it causes them individuals to look only at the possible proof and theorys,because they want to beleave them they take them as fact.But you have to see the bigger picture and see what is,not what you want to see,do not be blinded by the light and stay in the shadows
of truth.

Atariguy · Jun 19, 2001

The Lord helps those who help themselves.

I've heard that that never appeared once in the Bible.

Speaking as a GUY here (well, a non-Christian guy) for a sec, I just want to say that WHAT GUY IN HIS RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER WANT TO OUTLAW ABORTION????

What if, through no fault of your own, you accidentally Fathered a child?

What if, like me, you don't want any children?

Yeah.. Good idea guys, let's make abortion ILLEGAL... yeah, that makes a lot of sense...

ARRGGHH.....

So you believe it's all right to kill someone because you find them inconvenient.

I don't understand why people can't affirm their religous beliefs without foisting them upon others.

Jesus said something along the lines of "Make believers of all nations."

It seems like Jehovas witnesses, krishnas, christians, muslims, and whatever else believe they won't get to go to heaven if they don't convert others.

Actually Christians believe the only way you get into heaven by having faith in Jesus, and the reason they want you to be a Christian is that you could be saved too.

It doesn't matter if you have a religon or not but you have to take into consideration that events as the Crusades, Black Death and Spanish Inquisition are but to name a few of the wrongs commited by the church.

First off, the black death was a disease, the church didn't cause it. Second most Christians are ashamed of those things.

Lou made a good point when he mentioned the taking at face value and twisting it,cos whatever true meaning existed in the bible
it aint there no more,that thing has been Re-written a thousand times,its kinda like chinese whispers somethings gonna get muddled along the way people get it wrong
and that leads to bloodshed.

They have found new testament writings from as early as around 100-150 AD. It is almost identical to today's Bible. Admitedly, there have been some changes: Mark 16:9-20 does not appear in early transcripts, and is directly contradicted by later writings.

I'm sorry for making this so long. I hope I wasn't to preachy and didn't offend anyone.

neobuyer · Jun 19, 2001

Originally posted by Atariguy:

So you believe it's all right to kill someone because you find them inconvenient.

That is a loaded question.

I do not think that a sperm and an egg coming into contact and beginning the biological process of human reproduction makes an automatic "person".

Humans become "Persons" after they have developed sufficiently to be truly self aware. Persons have feelings, unborn fetuses do not have emotions or feelings, they are not aware.

Just to put a little perspective on this:

There are something like 6 billion people on the Earth. There are few things that are EASIER for humans to do than reproduce. The quality of life for many of those 6 billion "persons" is so sickeningly low that most people in the civilised world would probably rather die than live under them.

Can anyone think that human reproduction is so "special" and magical when faced with that reality?

The very notion that we cannot take control of our own reproduction as a species is pretty disturbing to people unencumbered by illogical religious dogma.

evil wasabi · Jun 19, 2001

Originally posted by neobuyer:
That is a loaded question.

I do not think that a sperm and an egg coming into contact and beginning the biological process of human reproduction makes an automatic "person".

Humans become "Persons" after they have developed sufficiently to be truly self aware. Persons have feelings, unborn fetuses do not have emotions or feelings, they are not aware.

Just to put a little perspective on this:

There are something like 6 billion people on the Earth. There are few things that are EASIER for humans to do than reproduce. The quality of life for many of those 6 billion "persons" is so sickeningly low that most people in the civilised world would probably rather die than live under them.

Can anyone think that human reproduction is so "special" and magical when faced with that reality?

The very notion that we cannot take control of our own reproduction as a species is pretty disturbing to people unencumbered by illogical religious dogma.

Exactly right! its not murder in the abortion stage,if aborting a baby is murder at this level than its also murder to not have sex (hahaha,well erm yeah).you know what i mean when a baby is aborted at this stage its not human and the brain hasnt developed,whether it feels pain is neither here or there if it doesnt have a brain to tell it what it is feeling.
My guess is atari guy is basing it on the beleif that every child has a soul when its born,wake the fuck up we are in the year 2001
an age of science and supposedly intelligence and common sense,souls,god,afterlife is NOT common sense
it is pure speculation based on what if arguments and is not a good enough solid theory not to abort a child.And as stated above it is not what you can call living at this stage.
You probably want to know what my problem is?
at the moment jerusalem is having a heated battle,one that could and already is turning nasty,they have been fighting since the year dot and its all in the name of religion,i dont know the details but the war is probably about something stupid where they cant see it as water under the bridge,its being going too long,what i do know is that anybody who follows these beleifs is an advocate of evil,of lies and crap.
If a nuclear missile drops tommorrow,as i burn ill say bloody religions as i die cos the likely hood will be that some religous country will have pressed that fucking button.
Religion is a one law for one a different law for the other,a book of contridictions
one minute it says eye for an eye the next it says turn the other cheek.Its not entirely the bible or religions fault its mankind its the way we are and always will be,man is the scum of this planet,nothing will save us from ourselves.I say nature and this planet is god and man is satan.

Atariguy · Jun 19, 2001

I do not think that a sperm and an egg coming into contact and beginning the biological process of human reproduction makes an automatic "person".

Humans become "Persons" after they have developed sufficiently to be truly self aware. Persons have feelings, unborn fetuses do not have emotions or feelings, they are not aware.

If what you say is true, what about chimpanzees? Tests have shown that chimpanzees have a level of self awareness. They have emotions too. Does that make them people? If not, doesn't that make small children who are equally self aware not people?

The very notion that we cannot take control of our own reproduction as a species is pretty disturbing to people unencumbered by illogical religious dogma.

I believe people should try to limit reproduction. I am personally fine with birth control devices, but IMHO once the baby is concieved it's too late to do anything about it.

Atariguy · Jun 19, 2001

My guess is atari guy is basing it on the beleif that every child has a soul when its born

correct

you know what i mean when a baby is aborted at this stage its not human and the brain hasnt developed,whether it feels pain is neither here or there if it doesnt have a brain to tell it what it is feeling.

I heard somewhere that fetuses do have brain activity, including REM sleep.

Religion is a one law for one a different law for the other,a book of contridictions
one minute it says eye for an eye the next it says turn the other cheek.

The "eye for eye" thing was from exodus. God was telling Moses how to set up a government. If there were no punishments for crimes, there would be anarchy. It also seems to be just a way of saying that the puynidhment should fit the crime. Technically the "turn the other cheek" thing has to do with passive resistence (e-mail me if you want to know about this). Jesus did teach to always forgive, or how can you expect God to forgive you. Jesus' teaching were aimed at how the individual should lead his/her life.

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: Atariguy ]

neobuyer · Jun 19, 2001

Originally posted by Atariguy:


If what you say is true, what about chimpanzees? Tests have shown that chimpanzees have a level of self awareness. They have emotions too. Does that make them people? If not, doesn't that make small children who are equally self aware not people?

Click to expand...

Actually, in alot of way Chimps and other great apes pretty much ARE like human children.

Here's an interesting moral question for you all:
If you had to choose to save the life of a month old fetus or a lovable, four year old chimp with a personality and feelings, which one would you save?

BTW: Have any of you seen what happens to alot of the chimps they use for medical research? Seen the look on the face of a tortured, desperate Chimpanzee? A chimp that's been locked in a cell it's whole life and subjected to medical research?

Interesting how most Christians will condone the torture of an intelligent adult human-like primate, but the idea of abortion is so bothersome to them.

Oh yeah, wait, I forgot... God put the great apes on Earth so we could shoot them with rifles so that US army surgeons can practice treating gunshot wounds....

Metal Slug · Jun 19, 2001

Abortion is one hell of a can of worms!
I can see both sides on that one!
At least Atariguy isn't one of those dammned hypocrites whose against contraception as well!
I'm not against abortion, as long as its early, I think we need to decide when conciousness and awareness begin, and make that the cut off point for a termination.
BUT, up to that point, whenever it is 8 weeks 16 weeks 26 weeks, whatever they decide, women should be able to get abortion on demand, no F'in around, no waiting, get it over with!
And they shouldn't have to run the gauntlet of the nutters with banners screaming murderer at them as they go into the hospital.

Heres a question for the American peeps!
You know that the level of violence and intimidation used against medical staff in "abortion clinics" is now so great, that it is only routinely possible to get a termination in 13 states of the U.S.
Doctors are being stalked, intimdidated, murdered etc. Clinics are beig burned down, other are closing, patients are too afraid to keep apointments.
How do you feel knowing that even though abortion is legal in your country, it is being driven underground by these terror tactics?

evil wasabi · Jun 19, 2001

Ah you see thats the thing,we dont need religion anymore as we have a legal system,we no longer need to threaten people with hell and damnation,we have prisons for that.
I will not email you,no offense but i feel youll preach the same old crap that ive heard before.
I was born from a father who would rather spend his money up the bar than treat his son,i came from a parent that knew everything he was doing was wrong but didnt do a thing about it,it killed him in the end
and due to his drinking he had debts,he conned my mum into sighning papers,so when he died he left my mum £12,000 in debt or more i think,he knew he was dying and we were poor,he died 7 years ago and my mum has only just paid off the debt.
As far as im conserned no god would let people suffer,i watched the cancer eat away at him ,i suffered i suffered at school
and was even bullied about it and was feeling suicidal,you have to realise that at that point i didnt beleave anything would help me i pleaded,when i didnt get answers and results from god i went into satanism,then i realised it was all crap
the lot of it we are just here to suffer,if your gonna beleave in that shite its up to you but if you cry to god and he doesnt hear you youll soon feel the same way.But then some of that christian poison will kick in
and convince you that your problem will be solved later on.you have to snap out of these conditioned beleifs,you can only save yourself,thats what i learnt,nothing will do it for you.Yeah i know what your gonna say,
god guided you along the way,that is bollocks
i have free will and freedom no one helped me.
I thought i deserved better,but then im only speaking of myself there are a lot of far worse off people than what my situation was
and they dont get much help.
And why doesnt god stop the wars,you cant keep saying gods will cos if thats gods will i dont want to beleave in him,and satan is just an easy made up target for all the worlds evils.

Im gonna guess what you say next and see if you say it.

Are you sometimes frightened by the actions of religious people?

Master of Disguise,

Handheld Hitter,

Master of Disguise,

Enemy Chaser

Master of Disguise,

Master of Disguise,

R.I.P.,, Dear Friend,

Whip's Subordinate

The Jongmaster

Bu, ,

Super Spy Agent

NEST Puppet

The Jongmaster

Master of Disguise,

Handheld Hitter,

Enemy Chaser

The Jongmaster

Hardened Shock Trooper, ,

Master of Disguise,

The Jongmaster

Hardened Shock Trooper, ,

Hardened Shock Trooper, ,

Master of Disguise,

Handheld Hitter,

The Jongmaster