Security Threat: Iraq or NK? Plus many more foriegn policy issues! Read & Join in!

aria

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I'm leaning towards NK, but I want to hear opinion.

[edit: This thread is actually covering some really interesting material not just involving the original question, I just thought to note that in the title.]

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Bobak ]</small>
 

Diavle18

Banger regnaB,
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I don't know who is a bigger threat but I am sure that Iraq will be the one attacked.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Diavle18 ]</small>
 

garou_d

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I don't think that iraq is a big threat. bush want the oil, nothing else. ben laden is a bigger threat I think, as well as NK.

but it's much more complicate than that. my geopolitical knowledge is quiet limited.

all I know is that US shouldn't decide alone.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: garou_d ]</small>
 

Lost Basura

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politics in a gamming forum, a formula for disaster.

Iraq by a long shot. NK just wants money, mostly. i'm not going to get into it, but they're not really going to do anything. they would need china to back them if they went to war (the whole commie thing) but china wont do it...there's much to be said but this is a small take.

Iraq, now lets recall history. There was an incredible man living once named Churchill. he lived in a time when there was a second world war. he said "hey there's a crazy man over in germany and he's up to no good. we need to fix this" the rest of the euros said beat it, then millions died. i dont think it necessary to draw the current parallel. just because you dont know enough about something doesnt mean its wrong, our president is out for trouble, he is working in the best intrest of the nation and there are many many things we dont know about.

also if you morons go on and on about how its about the oil blah blah blah, you are terribly not perseptive. it all comes down to and will come down to Israel. when we go to war, ironically the protesters are advancing it, we will not stop untill we have done away with iraq and cover palestine, so as to and the constant tumoil over there.......

now dont get silly and criticise my views, i actually haven't given but one of my view and it was small, the rest is fact w/ minor speculation.

as long as there are no America haters her i'll be fine, but if you mock the country you live in you have no soul.
 

Lost Basura

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oh and for the oil arguments. the coast of california and in alsaka, there's enough oil for the U.S. russia has a tremendous amount of oil in siberia and other regions.

the reason we dont use ours is simple. use everyone elses first, b/c they are willing to sell, then use ours and sell it to them at a premium. go U.S.A.
 

BlackSpy

Tsrgoihrea,
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This is a trick question right? Where is the evidence that either country is a threat to anyone?

You know Time ran a poll in Europe as to which country was the biggest threat to world peace, 78% went for the states.
 

Atro

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Lost Basura:
oh and for the oil arguments. the coast of california and in alsaka, there's enough oil for the U.S. russia has a tremendous amount of oil in siberia and other regions.

the reason we dont use ours is simple. use everyone elses first, b/c they are willing to sell, then use ours and sell it to them at a premium. go U.S.A.
That's because of that kind of behavior that your country have tons of haters. It only shows a selfish attitude.

USA don't need to do that. USA is big enough to live by their own. smirk
 

Atro

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BlackSpy:
This is a trick question right? Where is the evidence that either country is a threat to anyone?

You know Time ran a poll in Europe as to which country was the biggest threat to world peace, 78% went for the states.
Unless Bin Laden, we haven't heard about any threat from anybody before Bush declared he wants to bomb Iraq.

I still don't know why the americans are so confident with him. Bush is making the americans his puppets. He's a bastard.

US Dollar used to be the 2nd strongest currency of the world, now because of all that war thng, it drop already to 1.08 for €uro.

Was this what the fellow americans have expected by electing this president ? No. shame
 

BlackSpy

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Atrophyed:
Lost Basura:
oh and for the oil arguments. the coast of california and in alsaka, there's enough oil for the U.S. russia has a tremendous amount of oil in siberia and other regions.

the reason we dont use ours is simple. use everyone elses first, b/c they are willing to sell, then use ours and sell it to them at a premium. go U.S.A.
That's because of that kind of behavior that your country have tons of haters. It only shows a selfish attitude.

USA don't need to do that. USA is big enough to live by their own. smirk
Its total bollocks anyway, Iraq has nearly three times the oil reserves of the US according to industry estimates.
 

Crovax

Rasputin's Rose Gardener
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North Korea, easily.

NK has a nuclear program capable of churning out 2 bombs a year. furthermore, they have been testing a rudimentary intercontinental ballistic missle program. That means that given enough time (a shorter time scale than iraq), they could strike continental US targets. From an economic perspective, they threaten to destabilize the entire region, which has become a critical member of the world economy.

Iraq, on the other hand, only has the weapon capability to threaten Israel and Europe. Yet, they aren't targeting Europe. Thus, they aren't any more of a threat to the continental US, than any other terrorist group (read: still a threat, just not as much of one as NK).
 

Crovax

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Lost Basura:
also if you morons go on and on about how its about the oil blah blah blah, you are terribly not perseptive. it all comes down to and will come down to Israel. when we go to war, ironically the protesters are advancing it, we will not stop untill we have done away with iraq and cover palestine, so as to and the constant tumoil over there.......
now dont get silly and criticise my views, i actually haven't given but one of my view and it was small, the rest is fact w/ minor speculation.
No, I think I will criticize your views Basura. Most of what you espoused may not be your views, but they are hardly fact. It seems you have bought into the pro-war propaganda in a big way. otherwise, you would see that it is indeed about oil. Everything in that region is about oil. Now, it is not always about securing oil sources directly, but rather the surrounding politics.

Plain and simple, we hate Iraq because they won't just lay back and allow us to exploit their oil as we please. I mean, if this wasn't the case, then we'd be after Saudia Arabia right now. All of the 9/11 hijakers were Saudi, and Al'Quida is getting money from Saudi sources. However, because Saudi Arabia is letting us get as much oil as we want from them, we choose to turn a blind eye.

I hear the concept of regime change being thrown around a lot, and frankly, I find it laughable. It is all propaganda to gain support for a percived "rightous" cause. Around the world, there are regimes that are as oppressive as Saddam Hussein's. Yet, you don't see us pounding the war drums to replace those regimes. As a matter of fact, in some cases, we prop up the regime if it means we get some benefit. It is pure hypocrisy. Case in point is pakistan. Gen. Masharaf (sp?) seized power and has established an autocracy, yet we were willing to work with them, and even give them aid, because they allowed us to use their country as a beachhead for Afghanistan. Another example is Afghanistan itself. The Taliban had been in power, and had been committing human rights violations since the mid-80s, yet there was no reason to change that regime until after 9/11, and even then, we have done little to establish true democracy there since.

In all honesty, I think that those who buy into the propaganda, and truly believe Iraq is a threat for the reasons we keep hearing about are the morons. the whole iraq issue is for purely selfish interests, and I'm sorry some can't see that. Frankly, I find all the demonizing comparisons to Hitler laughable. Hussein is hardly the threat Hitler became.

Lastly, the only reason the turmoil in the region is as bad as it has become, is because we're in the region, and because the state of Israel was established. If we did not rely on them for oil, and did not protect Israel, then the region would not hate us so much. It is NOT some inherent evil in Iraq and palestine.
 

BlackSpy

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In fact, at the time of the much publicised gas attacks on the Kurds Rumsfeld was in government and decided that it didn't mean the US should even stop giving Iraq miliary aid.

Pakistan has nukes, it even has a first use policy, its run by a dictator who has broken several promises to hold elections, its nuclear industry has lost several lights to questionable orgaisations and still nothing.
 

RabbitTroop

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Atrophyed:
Was this what the fellow americans have expected by electing this president ? No. shame
Um, we didn't elect him... don't you remember what happened? And for the general consensus I think 95% of all Americans hate Bush... and guess what, it's an election year! We will see what happens now won't we,

-Nick

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: nruva ]</small>
 

rugal2000

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North Korea. They are tough bastards.......I mean look at their karate team in best of the best 1.
 

aria

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Allow me to throw another piece of evidence on the table:

- NK missles can hit Japan (and the expansive American presense there), Taiwan, and it's known that they're working on weapons that could hit Alaska and even (via a polar-route) Northern US.

- Iraq is just trying to keep it's own vultures at bay, and as was mentioned earlier, has only the capacity to hit parts of Europe (which they don't want to hit, save maybe the UK, but that's too far away).

Of course, there's an expansive American military presence at both borders (particularly NK)

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Bobak ]</small>
 

Galford Forever

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I won't even address the anti-US thing. I'm sick of that crap. We're not the reason for the world's problems, just everyone uses us as a handy scapegoat.

I actually saw someone on a news interview say that they don't like the US cause they don't give us enough money. I think it was someone from Brazil. How ludicrous is that? Well, I don't like any foreign country cause they've never given me any money either. Get a life.

Anyway, I'm honestly worried about NK. Not cause I think they'll hit the US, but, like you said Bobak, that they might hit Japan. The Koreans and Japanese absolutely hate each other and I think it just might happen. I've got a fionce and friends in Japan that I'm worried about :(. I guess I need to import her before the shit hits the fan.....
 

tsukaesugi

Holy shit, it's a ninja!,
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To be honest,

I don't think either is a very imminent or real military threat to the (mainland) USA.

-Iraq lacks the range. While they are capable of attacking other countries in the region, if left to their own devices, I doubt very much they would do so. Saddam Hussien is aware that an Iraq attack or invasion on a neighbouring country would justify another US/UN intervention which would result in the defeat of the Iraq military and more importantly the end of his regime. Again, I doubt seriously he is willing to give up power. (If left completely alone, however, he would probably go back to eradicating the Kurds, which is why the no-fly zones should be kept in place.)

-N.Korea currently lacks the range and the arsenal. Even after another ten or twenty years of weapons development, they would still pose only a fraction of the nuclear threat that the Soviet Union did. In the current crisis, if war did break out, and they wanted to attack the US, at best, they would only be able to launch the one or two (highly innaccurate) missles they have at Alaska, and possibly Hawaii. They are far more likely to use their limited nuclear arsenal against Korea or here in Japan.

That being said, N.Korea does pose a very real threat to Korea and Japan. They have on many occasions threatened to turn Korea into a 'Sea of Flames' if war broke out. Their artillery alone could do this (Seoul is only about 60km from the border). It is estimated that over a million would die in the first month of a war on the Korean penninsula.

However, a second Korean war would lead to the total destruction of the N.Korean regime. There is no way they can win and they know this. The people in power in N.Korea, Kim Jong Il and the group of generals and high ranking party members that support him, are not foolish enough to risk losing their power and lives in a war they can't win. The N.Koreans can be said to be belligerent, bullying, and bellicose, but one thing they are not is stupid. This is why they will not make the first move.

In summary:
-Iraq poses no military threat to the USA. This is one of the reasons why the US is willing to invade in an attempt to displace the Hussein regime.

-N.Korea poses no military threat to the USA, but a great threat to Korea and Japan, and American interests in Asia. However, they are not likely to start anything. This is why the US is keen on using diplomacy instead of the threat of force. And unlike Iraq, the N.Korean regime is also very unstable. There is a chance that in another decade or so the country will either collapse in on itself, or peacefully reunite with Korea (much like Germany did). This is another reason to hold off from any military intervention.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I encourage anyone interested in reading more about the past and future of global conflicts to check out a journalist by the name of 'Gwynne Dyer'. He writes mostly on this topic, and his essays tend to be very realistic, impartial, and well-thought-out. He is also very good at avoiding the kind of sensationalism and scare-mongering common to magazines like Time, and Newsweek.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: tsukaesugi ]</small>
 

Kid Aphex

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*start reasonable thought*

Crovax was a genius in this thread. I agree with everything he said...he basically beat me to it.

But i'd like to add...some of you who think that Iraq is not a threat to the US are kidding yourselves. I'm 100% aware this is a war for oil...but that doesn't mean that Iraq is completely innocent of having ties with terror cells.

*end reasonable thought*

*start unreasonable rant*

It's proven that psychotic, idiotic, desperate, and fucking worthless muslims will go to any length to further their cause...

What do you want to happen to the United States before we act?

I'm sorry, but I don't think we did enough damage after 9.11. There is a very angry side of me, that says we should be disassembling entire fucking countries to further our cause, and disrupt terrorist activity. I could care less about their shitty, lazy-ass ways. The entire middle east is a fucking trash-bin full of oil, that we simply need to clean out. Its a society of dirty bums whose culture revolves around the principles of laziness. Their culture refuses to modernize for no reason other than they're LAZY...LAZY...LAZY.

PUSSY France and Germany think we should keep our nose out of the rest of the world's business when it's not our own, but it's high time they realize that in a world this interconnected...everything is everyone's business.

Sorry for all that, just a bit of aggression.
 

JHendrix

Jello Pudding Pop, Y'know? Like that whole Bill C
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We have to stop Iraq from BECOMING North Korea. We can do that if we act now.

We must act now to stop Saddam and then we can take care of North Korea. Hopefully we won't have to resort to Military action to stop north Korea.

-JHendrix
 

Daisuke Jigen

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Kid Aphex:
*start reasonable thought*

*start unreasonable rant*

It's proven that psychotic, idiotic, desperate, and fucking worthless muslims will go to any length to further their cause...

What do you want to happen to the United States before we act?

I'm sorry, but I don't think we did enough damage after 9.11. There is a very angry side of me, that says we should be disassembling entire fucking countries to further our cause, and disrupt terrorist activity. I could care less about their shitty, lazy-ass ways. The entire middle east is a fucking trash-bin full of oil, that we simply need to clean out. Its a society of dirty bums whose culture revolves around the principles of laziness. Their culture refuses to modernize for no reason other than they're LAZY...LAZY...LAZY.

PUSSY France and Germany think we should keep our nose out of the rest of the world's business when it's not our own, but it's high time they realize that in a world this interconnected...everything is everyone's business.

Sorry for all that, just a bit of aggression.
That's the biggest bag of racist crap I've ever read here, barring anything Rugal2000 has written. Congratulations. I now have 0 respect for you. shame
 

tsukaesugi

Holy shit, it's a ninja!,
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JHendrix:
We have to stop Iraq from BECOMING North Korea. We can do that if we act now.

We must act now to stop Saddam and then we can take care of North Korea. Hopefully we won't have to resort to Military action to stop north Korea.

-JHendrix
JHendrix, attempting any sort of offensive military action against N.Korea would result in a holocaust.
 

Kid Aphex

samus' love slave,
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Daisuke Jigen:
Kid Aphex:
*start reasonable thought*

*start unreasonable rant*

It's proven that psychotic, idiotic, desperate, and fucking worthless muslims will go to any length to further their cause...

What do you want to happen to the United States before we act?

I'm sorry, but I don't think we did enough damage after 9.11. There is a very angry side of me, that says we should be disassembling entire fucking countries to further our cause, and disrupt terrorist activity. I could care less about their shitty, lazy-ass ways. The entire middle east is a fucking trash-bin full of oil, that we simply need to clean out. Its a society of dirty bums whose culture revolves around the principles of laziness. Their culture refuses to modernize for no reason other than they're LAZY...LAZY...LAZY.

PUSSY France and Germany think we should keep our nose out of the rest of the world's business when it's not our own, but it's high time they realize that in a world this interconnected...everything is everyone's business.

Sorry for all that, just a bit of aggression.
That's the biggest bag of racist crap I've ever read here, barring anything Rugal2000 has written. Congratulations. I now have 0 respect for you. shame
I really don't care what Jigen, the internet wonder thinks of me.

PS: Why don't you actually participate in the discussion instead of just criticixing me from the sidelines?

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Kid Aphex ]</small>
 

DIY

Loyal Neo-Disciple
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Kid Aphex:
PUSSY France and Germany think we should keep our nose out of the rest of the world's business when it's not our own, but it's high time they realize that in a world this interconnected...everything is everyone's business.
Yeah, and thats why the US is one of the few countries that refuses to sign international acts to <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1456088.stm" target="_blank">stop biological warfare</a> and then goes on to invade Iraq on the premise that Saddam is hidding small pox virus.

Kid Aphex please remove your head from your ass.
 
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