Prognosticators prognosticate: News impact of Shuttle v. Iraqi Situation

Okay,

We've had a shuttle tragedy, 16 years ago Challenger it dominated the news; for the last decade, until something goes really wrong, they really don't talk about the space program.

The whole "we're going to bomb Iraq rhetoric" is also going on, but really, IMO nobody in the US(save for a minority of true-hawks and doves) really care that much.

So what will happen now?

- we'll definitely have at least a week's worth of solid front-page/tv news dominant coverage of the shuttle tragedy

- Iraq news will start appearing later in the news, people won't pay attention as much. Saddam Hussien could say "I killed Tupac", and people wouldn't really notice

- the questions is, since this probably won't be as big as the Challenger disaster, I wonder how long it will divert public opinion away from the Iraqi/North Korean situations.

- Will Pres. Bush use this upcoming news divertion as an excuse to push forward action in Iraq (he'd probably be wise to do it)?

- If Bush does start to take action, his opponents in Congress will start yelling again, and the whole fracas could possibly backfire for both groups as people say "c'mon people, we just had a disaster, Iraq can wait a little longer"

Anyone want to give an opinion, either using or adding to what I've mentioned above? I really haven't stated my opinion, short of stating a few things to keep in mind.

I'd love to hear responses (unless you think Israel is going to bomb the US, in that case just hold off this time around):

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Bobak ]</small>

The thing that strikes me is that on the one hand people are saying its awful these seven people taking an enourmous risk died but seem not to give a flying fuck about the hundreds of thousands likely to die as the result of a war in Iraq who have done nothing to put themselves in harms way.

I believe that this disaster will divert peoples attention away from the issue of a possible war with iraq.

However, I don't believe that Bush would use this as an excuse to push forward even faster with his war plans. That would make him look dumb...and the president doesn't need to look like an asshole.

Remember when ENRON went under? That diverted attention from 9\11 didn't it?

I believe the same will hold true for the Columbian\Iraq affair.

But, thats IMHO

BlackSpy:
The thing that strikes me is that on the one hand people are saying its awful these seven people taking an enourmous risk died but seem not to give a flying fuck about the hundreds of thousands likely to die as the result of a war in Iraq who have done nothing to put themselves in harms way.

Click to expand...

Bush is killing two birds with one stone with this war...

He is gonna secure a shitload of oil, and he's gonna take out one of the biggest morons ever to grace the earth.

But seriously...I may sound really stupid in asking this question but, What has Saddam ever done to the USA? Has he bombed us? Has he killed any of our people?

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: BryLmoo ]</small>

BlackSpy:
The thing that strikes me is that on the one hand people are saying its awful these seven people taking an enourmous risk died but seem not to give a flying fuck about the hundreds of thousands likely to die as the result of a war in Iraq who have done nothing to put themselves in harms way.

Click to expand...

-Bingo-

Y'know what, and i really mean this, that most people really couldn't give a FUCK about what happened today. They just feel they are obligated to be upset because everyone around them is doing the same. Otherwise, if the value of human life meant so much to these people, like you said, they should be crying a fucking river by now at the prospect of war!!!

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Plisken ]</small>

Didn't Clinton start to bomb Kosovo while making a speech to America about the tradgedy of Columbine? It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bush did the same.

Then again, nothing can compete with the middle east.

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: SuperDuperSpork ]</small>

BryLmoo:

BlackSpy:
The thing that strikes me is that on the one hand people are saying its awful these seven people taking an enourmous risk died but seem not to give a flying fuck about the hundreds of thousands likely to die as the result of a war in Iraq who have done nothing to put themselves in harms way.

Click to expand...

Bush is killing two birds with one stone with this war...

He is gonna secure a shitload of oil, and he's gonna take out one of the biggest morons ever to grace the earth.

But seriously...I may sound really stupid in asking this question but, What has Saddam ever done to the USA? Has he bombed us? Has he killed any of our people?

Click to expand...

First of all, we dont get any of our oil from Irag. Russia, France, and Germany does. That's why they're against the war.

2nd, he publicly supports terrorism(atleast if its directed toward Isreal).Technically he has killed our people, but that doesnt count(first war). Most important, not only is he a future danger to us, he is a present danger to his neighbors and even his own people. If you saw some bully beating up your freinds in school and you were twice the size of the bully, wouldn't you kick his ass????

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: SuperDuperSpork ]</small>

Oil is a world market, you can't pretend that Iraq's oil, the second largest reserve in the world - twice what the US holds, is somehow indepent of the oil market the US operates in.

I equally abhor what happened today with the shuttle AND a possible war with Iraq. Both involve needless loss of life. Iraq isn't a threat to anyone, let the asshole die of old age. Pull out of Saudi Arabia and let those rich sheiks defend their own country against Saddam. Can anyone here say 'alternative fuel'? You make oil worthless, you make the entire Middle East a non-issue. Let's use our technology to rise above all this bullshit and leave those religious fanatics behind. Won't happen though...big oil owns Bu$h lock, stock, and barrel.

Interesting responses.

Thank you.

Loopz:
I equally abhor what happened today with the shuttle AND a possible war with Iraq. Both involve needless loss of life. Iraq isn't a threat to anyone, let the asshole die of old age. Pull out of Saudi Arabia and let those rich sheiks defend their own country against Saddam. Can anyone here say 'alternative fuel'? You make oil worthless, you make the entire Middle East a non-issue. Let's use our technology to rise above all this bullshit and leave those religious fanatics behind. Won't happen though...big oil owns Bu$h lock, stock, and barrel.

Click to expand...

First off there is no way to compare what happend to the shuttle to what is happening with Iraq. The death of those people is terrible but they went into space with full knowledge that something like that could happen. And if you look at how many people have been succesfully sent into outer space and returned safely versus the number that have given their life in pursuit of knowledge and exploration of space. I can only think of about 17 people that have died so far.

Saddam has shown several times before that he has no regard what ever for human life. Anyone who torture and kills their own people should not be allowed to continue to infect this world with hate. Do you really think if we start using fuel cell cars and other alternate fuels that the middle east will just go away quietly? Lets see we make the one thing the have lots of unessary to the world they now have nothing of value. A region that has been brainwashed into believing they are doing GODs work is rendured redundant even the rich people end up with nothing and as we have seen they already have no regard for even thier own lives. So do you really think they would just wither away if we no longer needed their oil? Doubtful more than likely with nothing left to loose they would try to execute more attacks like the ones on 911.

Ok, a couple points:
Because of their current weapons Iraq IS a threat to the USA. The thinking is to stop this before they are used against us.

Frankly, I'm sorry to say this but this tragedy won't mean a damn thing in terms of the space program and politics (except set it back even further). While NASA is starting their investigation I'm already hearing Congressmen on BOTH parties placing blame on each other, etc. the same as usual. 7 Great people lost their lives and everyone uses it as a vehicle to blame each other, or worse, uses it to make money. It really wouldn't surprise me to see people selling pieces of the Columbia on eBay in a few days (if they aren't doing it already).

Because of my interest in Astronomy, etc. I'm still upset by this. I still never really got over what happened to the Challenger 17 years ago...

Something else: you know why I hate the Middle East nowadays? Because it's a bunch of people killing each other over RELIGIONS. America has been guilty of the same thing, as have essentially every other country on this planet. As far as I'm concerned, all Religions (yes, even Christianity) are POINTLESS. Religions are a crutch that years ago gave people hope that their horrible lives would get better after they died. Most wars have been started over Religion.

And frankly I don't care if everyone knows that I'm proud to be an Atheist.


I have a few other opinions but I don't think they're appropriate for this forum (or probably any forum for that matter).

Phoenix Down:
Ok, a couple points:
Because of their current weapons Iraq IS a threat to the USA. The thinking is to stop this before they are used against us.

Click to expand...

What do you mean the American weapons that were given to Iraq as erm a nice present for a puppet dicatator (mmm rambo 3 type fun).

oh yeah don't forget Maggie Thatcher and the supergun fun (not a jamma one either).

Frasermozz:

Phoenix Down:
Ok, a couple points:
Because of their current weapons Iraq IS a threat to the USA. The thinking is to stop this before they are used against us.

Click to expand...

What do you mean the American weapons that were given to Iraq as erm a nice present for a puppet dicatator (mmm rambo 3 type fun).

oh yeah don't forget Maggie Thatcher and the supergun fun (not a jamma one either).

Click to expand...

No argument there, it's common knowledge that we supplied Iraq with a bunch of these weapons back when we thought Iraq was nice and Iran was our mortal enemy (no one said we were smart in the 80s). Another concern is that the USA is doing the exact same thing with the new government in Afghanistan. One wonders if the USA may have the same problem with the new Afghanistan government in 20 years that we do now with Iraq. frown

I think the US has played a key role in arming a lot of the people we've had to disarm or are on bad terms with.

- Manuel Noriega (directly)
- Saddam Hussien (directly)
- Osama bin Laden (directly)
- The Taliban (we gave it to the people who later formed the Taliban)
- all those Warlords currently giving us shit in Afghanistan (directly)
- Iran (we gave a ton of weapons to the Shah, who was "our man" before Saddam, when he was overthrown the Islamic regime took all of them)

I'm sure there's more, but it's been a while since I've thought about it

I think your argument Bobak! is wishfull thinking. In truth, most people care not for this Shuttle disaster. It'll be the big news for a couple days, but in the end most people will just shrug this off as another disaster that doesn't affect their lives in any way. More people care about the impending War against Saddam because MORE people have direct connection to the whole ordeal. Many people have family members and friends in the military who will be involved in this War. To the contrary, their are only few people to whom this Shuttle disaster directly has an impact on their lives, namely NASA employees and family members of the deceased. A far less number than that of those of us who have links to the War.

I think the US has played a key role in arming a lot of the people we've had to disarm or are on bad terms with.

Click to expand...

Ugh. We were also on Stalin's side in WWII. We fought Cold War with his form of government for 40 years directly after winning a war WITH STALIN.

The US is not the sole entity responsible for Saddam's WMD. Germany is also directly responsible for aiding the Iraqi's in the development of Nuclear weapons. France has the biggest percentage of trade with Iraq over any other nation. France has the 3rd largest budget with Iraq in the Oil for Food program(which everyone knows is not working, Saddam isn't feeding his people with that Food money). That's why these two nations oppose action because when its over, they will end up with Egg on their faces.

Saddam supports Terrorism. We have proof he offers sanctuary and trains members of Hamas. We know that. Hamas carries out terrorist acts against Isreali's. We have many many Jews in the Senate, and the Congress. These Jews have dual citizenship in the US and Isreal. Theres a connection to the US and Iraq right there. So, Saddam only offers aide to Hamas members? He tells Al-Quaida members to find somewhere else to get weapons and training? Saddam has some kind of conscience about the Islamic terrorists he supports?

Saddam also tried to assasinate Bush Sr. with a Scud Missile attack when he was visiting Kuwait in the 90's. We also know for a fact that he has Chemical weapons because in 1998 he USED THEM on the Kurds. He showed the Whole World he had these weapons. Saddam says they do not possess these weapons, and he has no proof to show they were destroyed. Hmm. The US and Russia has a long history of proving to eachother the destruction and dismantling of kinds of weapons in our disarmament treaties. Nuclear warheads, Naval Vessels, ballistic missiles etc. So we are supposed to believe that Saddam just snapped his fingers and his weapons magically disappeared?

Now, whether or not I agree with the reasons with going to war with Iraq or not, I have friends stationed in bordering countries to Iraq Right Now. I have to support them. I mean, I don't want them to die, unlike some people on these boards.

Then there are the people who say we shouldn't war with Iraq because of the fear that their may be counter attacks here in the USA. Yes, there may be in the short term. Don't be a weenie all your life and try to appease. Just think if after Pearl Harbor happened the American people said, "Fuck This, you guys win, don't attack us anymore pretty please?, lets just all smoke weed and play frisbee"

Just to build on GunstarHero's facts:

GunstarHero:
We also know for a fact that he has Chemical weapons because in 1998 he USED THEM on the Kurds. He showed the Whole World he had these weapons. Saddam says they do not possess these weapons, and he has no proof to show they were destroyed. Hmm.

Click to expand...

He also used them repeatedly during the Iran-Iraq conflict in the 80s, during the heyday of US support. It was the first time since WWI that they had been used in combat.

Bobak:
Just to build on GunstarHero's facts:

GunstarHero:
We also know for a fact that he has Chemical weapons because in 1998 he USED THEM on the Kurds. He showed the Whole World he had these weapons. Saddam says they do not possess these weapons, and he has no proof to show they were destroyed. Hmm.

Click to expand...

He also used them repeatedly during the Iran-Iraq conflict in the 80s, during the heyday of US support. It was the first time since WWI that they had been used in combat.

Click to expand...

We also supplied Stalin's army with food and munitions during WWII, so I still don't see the relevance in your point.

Honestly, I don't really care about the shuttle. When I heard about it my first reaction was "Aww, that's too bad" then 3 seconds later I was going about my business again. If anything it got me thinking the next day about a comment Bush made, "Our journey into space will continue" or something like that and I was like WTF have we been doing up there all this time? Why the hell are we up there, what's to gain? Shit, we've been to the moon so unless we plan on living there anytime soon spend all that fucking money that goes into the space program on something else. Unless we are going to fly into some black hole and find it to be some sort of portal or some shit or find oil or something, I say WTF we don't need to be in space.

I mean, are there any benefits to being #1 in space? Are all those satalites and shit really helping us? I want results damnit, something that would get people like me behind the space program. I don't need some fucking headline stating so and so shuttle crashed to remind me we are in space.

Will it divert attention from the war? Probably. I don't think Bush is going to act on it though. The public's opinion of him is already on the rough side with ALOT of criticism so he really doesn't need anything else to fuel the flames. He will prolly do this war by the book, using anything that can be turned against the ME to gain public approval to further advance his cause. Then he be sniping like a madman to get me some oil. drool_2

FeelGood:
Honestly, I don't really care about the shuttle. When I heard about it my first reaction was "Aww, that's too bad" then 3 seconds later I was going about my business again. If anything it got me thinking the next day about a comment Bush made, "Our journey into space will continue" or something like that and I was like WTF have we been doing up there all this time? Why the hell are we up there, what's to gain? Shit, we've been to the moon so unless we plan on living there anytime soon spend all that fucking money that goes into the space program on something else. Unless we are going to fly into some black hole and find it to be some sort of portal or some shit or find oil or something, I say WTF we don't need to be in space.

I mean, are there any benefits to being #1 in space? Are all those satalites and shit really helping us? I want results damnit, something that would get people like me behind the space program. I don't need some fucking headline stating so and so shuttle crashed to remind me we are in space.

Will it divert attention from the war? Probably. I don't think Bush is going to act on it though. The public's opinion of him is already on the rough side with ALOT of criticism so he really doesn't need anything else to fuel the flames. He will prolly do this war by the book, using anything that can be turned against the ME to gain public approval to further advance his cause. Then he be sniping like a madman to get me some oil. drool_2

Click to expand...

Yeah we should just say the heck with going into space since we don't really get anything out of it. Sarcasm off.

<a href="http://technology.nasa.gov/" target="_blank">NASA Tech</a>

FeelGood:
I mean, are there any benefits to being #1 in space? Are all those satalites and shit really helping us? I want results damnit, something that would get people like me behind the space program. I don't need some fucking headline stating so and so shuttle crashed to remind me we are in space.

Click to expand...

one of the biggest results of space satellites
are reconnaissance missions that used to be
accomplished by planes like the sr-71 f117 and the good ole u2 dragonlady.
i dont know if f117s are still in commission as much
anymore. but satellites are pretty important.
as for what else they do up there from the space
program end of it i m not totally sure anymore.
but the event was a tragedy.
i remember when i was a kid and the challenger blew up.
the whole school watched the fucking news in the gym.
it was a real tragedy.
to downplay this with the iraq situation would be typical
politics. and that i think thats sad. just because
it really is a tragedy.
to think that its just old news in the wash.
and no one cares kinda sucks.
it reminds me of when princess diana died and she
received 4 months of media coverage while mother teresa
died on the same day and there was fuck all no news about it.
hardly a mention. and shes a fucking saint.

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: rarehero ]</small>

GunstarHero:

Bobak:
Just to build on GunstarHero's facts:

GunstarHero:
We also know for a fact that he has Chemical weapons because in 1998 he USED THEM on the Kurds. He showed the Whole World he had these weapons. Saddam says they do not possess these weapons, and he has no proof to show they were destroyed. Hmm.

Click to expand...

He also used them repeatedly during the Iran-Iraq conflict in the 80s, during the heyday of US support. It was the first time since WWI that they had been used in combat.

Click to expand...

We also supplied Stalin's army with food and munitions during WWII, so I still don't see the relevance in your point.

Click to expand...

The point is I'm NOT arguing with you.

Bush has a lot on his hands.... The world is critical of him... yet no one else could do a better job I think.

I mean come on, look at the pressure he is in. He is in the eyes of everyone across the world. 1 False move.. everyone yells at him. If he does something right... people argue over that anyone.... or they say... good move this time.. don't screw it up.

either way... he is in a lose/lose situation. No one gives Bush the credit he deserves.. and no one else could fill his shoes either.... I would like to see 1 person that would want to at this time.

†B†V†

Hmm, looks like we may have a little bit of both.

If you've been paying attention to this thread, you'll get a kick out of the headline on Monday's NY Times (exactly how it was printed):

NASA FINDS CLUES IN SHUTTLE DISASTER;
NO DELAY ON IRAQ PLANS, BUSH AIDES SAY

Looks like they're trying to spin both. Its definitely interesting to note that the NASA line was first, I admit I almost didn't notice the Iraq part until the second time I glanced at it (particularly since the main picuture on the cover is a memorial service to the Columbia victims)

Let's see how the paper looks at the end of the week.