Discussion on the clash of Civilizations and the prize of the Holy City of Jerusalem

I just thought I would start and intellectual discussion on the history of the Christian and Islamic histories over the past thousand or so years. Over a thousand years ago it was Christian Europe who was wollowing in the dark ages and the Muslim world of the Middle East was advancing in all facets on many fields like science, math, the arts, architecture etc. and it was Europe that was wollowing in the dark ages where superstitions abounded due to the fact that it was the Age of Faith. Europe was economically and financially "backward" compared to the Middle East who was flourishing with wealth and prestige. Europe was plagued by repeated barbarian invasions from a host of marauders like vikings, magyars, etc. But it was fortunate that these "barbarian" invaders eventually settled in to the cultures of the local inhabitants. It was also during this "Age of Faith" that Europe was calling to take the Holy land through various crusades and popes were promising eternal life to those crusaders fighting the "heathens". But a few centuries later the Middle East was devastated over a period of years by Ghengis Khan and his hordes and the Arab world could never recover while Europe only a few centuries later saw the seeds of the Renaissance as it started with the arts in Italy and spread in other fields like medicine, law, science, and other important areas that affect people's lives. From this point on the muslim world and the Christian world of Europe reversed roles so to speak with Europe becoming more advance and the Arab world getting stunted in their advancement. And now we see muslim extremists advocating the same thing that the popes were promising to the crusaders that of eternal life if they fight to get back the Holy City due to the fact that the muslims were thrown out of Jerusalem for the first time in centuries in 1948. And the creation of the state of Israel in their war of Independence against the Palestinians and a host of other countries. We see the revers of what was going on a thousand years ago, especially since the crusaders also slaughtered the inhabitants of Jerusalem as they broke through the gates of the city in the first crusade. Your thoughts and Opinions. I thought we could just start an intellectual discussion on the subject.

I thought you were talkin about civilization 3

Sadly, a video-game forum ain't the best place to start a political discussion unless you start bashing either jews or muslims. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

I think the only thing that held the middle-east back was religion. Just as the vatican attempted to halt all progress in the west the high-"priesthood" of the middle-east were a bit more successful. Oh, and the west had more scholars in an earlier stage.

I'll go do some homework on this a bit later <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

// Bhm

both muslims and jews are bad news.

both muslims and jews are bad news.

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And christians aren't?`

// Bhm

Religion is a primitive crutch that panders to our fundamental selfish Human needs and fears.

Therefore, the idea that people would slaughter each other in the name of some supernatural 'spirit' that doesn't actually exist is more than a bit disturbing to most intellectuals.

Anyone who quarrels with his or her fellow Human beings in the name of their 'God' is a throwback to our whacked, primitive past.

Christians, Jews, Muslims- it's all really the same in the end. All groups who live their lives according to the imaginary 'Laws' of some imaginary 'God' are equally misguided.

We, as the Human race, will probably never make this world a nice place to live in peace for all of Earth's inhabitants. And one major contributing factor to this is our primitive-ass religions.

It's all such folly.

Originally posted by Bhm:
<STRONG>And christians aren't?`

// Bhm</STRONG>

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maybe but christians didnt bomb the wtc.

Originally posted by neobuyer:
<STRONG>Religion is a primitive crutch that panders to our fundamental selfish Human needs and fears.

Therefore, the idea that people would slaughter each other in the name of some supernatural 'spirit' that doesn't actually exist is more than a bit disturbing to most intellectuals.

Anyone who quarrels with his or her fellow Human beings in the name of their 'God' is a throwback to our whacked, primitive past.

Christians, Jews, Muslims- it's all really the same in the end. All groups who live their lives according to the imaginary 'Laws' of some imaginary 'God' are equally misguided.

We, as the Human race, will probably never make this world a nice place to live in peace for all of Earth's inhabitants. And one major contributing factor to this is our primitive-ass religions.

It's all such folly.</STRONG>

Click to expand...

how can you be so sure of that anyway? what if your wrong and God exists and sends you to hell when you die for not living your life according to His laws? then youd be screwed.

Originally posted by flint:
<STRONG>maybe but christians didnt bomb the wtc.</STRONG>

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Yeah,

But Christians bombed Oklamhoma city federal building, Mr. Short-Attention-Span.
Oh, and Hitler WAS a Christian.

Does that say something about all Christians? No. It just means idiots come in all the colors and beliefs of the rainbow.

You prove that ignorance knows no bounds too <IMG SRC="smilies/smirk.gif" border="0">

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Bobak ]

Originally posted by neobuyer:
<STRONG>Christians, Jews, Muslims- it's all really the same in the end. All groups who live their lives according to the imaginary 'Laws' of some imaginary 'God' are equally misguided.</STRONG>

Click to expand...

Christianity: Crusades, 1-5 (depending on who's counting; Inquisition (it wasn't just Spanish); serious bouts with anti-Semetism; sporadic lunatics...
-Do you remember when...A religious fanatic in LA openned fire on a Jewish day care center in 1999?

Judaism: The Old Testament ("and God told Moses to go to Canaan and 'fuck them all up'" -I'm paraphrasing); guerrilla attacks on the Palestinians in the 1930s and 40s; sporadic lunatics...
-Do you remember when...This past Dec. the leader of the Jewish Defense League was arrested for planning the bombings of a mosque and US Congressman's office?

Islam: Wahhadi Muslims; the Taliban; sporadic lunatics...
-Do you remember when...No example needed. Of course you do.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Bobak ]

Originally posted by neobuyer:
<STRONG>Religion is a primitive crutch that panders to our fundamental selfish Human needs and fears.

Therefore, the idea that people would slaughter each other in the name of some supernatural 'spirit' that doesn't actually exist is more than a bit disturbing to most intellectuals.

Anyone who quarrels with his or her fellow Human beings in the name of their 'God' is a throwback to our whacked, primitive past.

Christians, Jews, Muslims- it's all really the same in the end. All groups who live their lives according to the imaginary 'Laws' of some imaginary 'God' are equally misguided.

We, as the Human race, will probably never make this world a nice place to live in peace for all of Earth's inhabitants. And one major contributing factor to this is our primitive-ass religions.

It's all such folly.</STRONG>

Click to expand...

Five things. Number one: Just because you say it doesn't make it so. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

Number two: So what's your solution? Ban all religions? Hunt down anybody who proclaims the existence of God, Yahweh, Allah, Jah, etc., and burn him/her at the stake? Yeah, that seems so much better.

Number three: Atheists are hardly better. Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung... countless millions died by or through their decrees.(Cultural Revolution, the 15-25 million who died under Stalin, etc.)

Number four: Let's agree, for a moment, that people use religion as a tool to control people. Under Hobbesian philosophy, mankind will become ultimately self-destructive when left to his own devices. So, man needs some control. Hence religion. Even if you don't like it, it's a necessary evil. Unless, of course, you want existence to be "nasty, brutish, and short."

Number five: Let's say there's somebody you loved very much, and couldn't bear being apart from even for five seconds, say a father or a girlfriend. Now say that that person died a tragic, premature death. Would you rather a) think you'll never see that person again, or b) believe that you will see that person upon your death? Personally, and I'm just speaking for myself here, I would go for b.

Athiest are such idiots and are so predictable. Ya'll need Jesus!! Jesus is top tier!! heh. Jesus owns Ignis, Goenitz, Zero, Krizalid and all the rest of them fools.

Originally posted by Gemini061176:
<STRONG>Your thoughts and Opinions. I thought we could just start an intellectual discussion on the subject.</STRONG>

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Gemini,

I think you've made a rather good assessment of Jerusalem's position in drawing from the movement of the West and East since the dawn of the Millenium. I always found it facinating that, if an alien historian were to look at Earth in 1000 AD, they would've picked the Chinese civilization as "most likely to succeed", followed by the Middle East, and rolling down the list to Western Europe in dead last (being the end of the Dark Ages). If you want to read a really facinating book on the subject, I highly recommend Millenium, by Felipe Fernandez-Armesto. You'll dig it (I sort of paraphrased the beginning in my comments).

John I couln't agree with you more. When I made my first post I didn't read what you had posted and I had almost posted everything you said, then I came back and looked. I was even gonna mention Stalin and Mao Tse Tung cuz they had communist governments and communism doesn't support Religion. Basically everybody is guilty, athiests, Religious fanatics, everybody.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: SPINMASTER X ]

Originally posted by John:
<STRONG>Number two: So what's your solution? Ban all religions? Hunt down anybody who proclaims the existence of God, Yahweh, Allah, Jah, etc., and burn him/her at the stake? Yeah, that seems so much better.</STRONG>

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Well, unlike many of the actions of followers of the aforementioned religions, I do not propose we burn anyone at the stake, so to speak.

Originally posted by John:
<STRONG>Number three: Atheists are hardly better. Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung... countless millions died by or through their decrees.(Cultural Revolution, the 15-25 million who died under Stalin, etc.)</STRONG>

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That's one of the main arguments I get from my Father and other religious people I talk to regularly. But the tyrants you mention are not the product of Atheism. They are the product of other secular philosophical dogma- in this case, Communism. It's the same Human nature flaw that makes people worship deities that causes them to cling to hardcore secular 'faiths' like Communism, hard left Liberalism and ethnic radicalism. Unfortunately, most people have a real hard time not holding to some irrational philosophy that makes them feel better about, and more secure in, the world. But that is not Atheism. All being an Atheist means is that I do not believe in a 'god' and I do not believe in the supernatural. (i.e.: Ghosts, spirits, psychic powers, etc.) that's it. Atheism entails no more than a lack of belief. It is the presupposition of many religious people that Atheism is a 'religion' because they do not wish to be seen as irrational for basing their lives on the rules of some supernatural 'deity'. Claiming that Atheism is a religion is a quick, easy way to put Atheists on the same extreme level as devout religious people.

Originally posted by John:
<STRONG>Number five: Let's say there's somebody you loved very much, and couldn't bear being apart from even for five seconds, say a father or a girlfriend. Now say that that person died a tragic, premature death. Would you rather a) think you'll never see that person again, or b) believe that you will see that person upon your death? Personally, and I'm just speaking for myself here, I would go for b.</STRONG>

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Well I would go for B too!

Hell, I wish very much that B IS true. B would be great. But B isn't true. I would just be kidding myself to think that there's a sort of 'supernatural' afterlife. Like it or not, the world is an unfair, disturbing, unsafe place. Some people, like my own Father, tell me they think Atheism is some sort of 'easy' choice and that not being religious frees you to live in some sort of world without rules. That's bullshit, though. I live in a world very much full of laws, both ethical and imposed on my be being a member of a civilised sosiety. I also do not have the massive sense of imaginary safety and security that comes with the belief in a loving 'God' and an afterlife of magical 'rewards'. There's alot of benefits to be had as an individual as far as peace of mind goes by being religious- that's one of the main reasons people ARE religious. But it still is nothing more than fantasy and wishful thinking. I choose not to believe things based on wether I 'want' them to be true or not.

But in the end I certainly don't condemn people for being Spiritual or believing in God or the afterlife. What I critisize is the strict adherance to any organised faith where a set of arcane 'rules' are followed in 'return' for a supernatural 'reward' in the afterlife. I oppose any group thinking that they are the chosen people of 'god'.

And I oppose war and conflict based upon supernatural beliefs or anticipation of a spiritual 'afterlife'.