Cell Shading!!

10 in 2010 · Sep 14, 2002

just look at all those companies whorin' sega's ideas again! <img src="graemlins/tickled.gif" border="0" alt="[Tickled]" />

cell shading's getting old already, because it's being used wayyyyyyyy to much, in games that don't suit it. (a FPS, a robotech game? Zelda? WTF?)

opinions?

Blaine · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by 10in2010:
just look at all those companies whorin' sega's ideas again! <img src="graemlins/tickled.gif" border="0" alt="[Tickled]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Saying Cel Shading is Sega's idea is like saying all 3D games are a rip-off of Virtua Fighter because it was 'first'.

Sega didn't invent Cel-Shading.

SPINMASTER X · Sep 14, 2002

they are whoring the hell out of cell shading. Only certain games should use it namely games made after a cartoon series but they use it way to fuckin much. I thought it was so cool when i first saw it and now its starting to get on my nerves. And yeah I saw that cell shading stuff in commercials before i saw it on a sega game. Sega just gave it the "ok" and decided to use it in videogames.

Shin Guile X · Sep 14, 2002

I don't see anything wrong with Robotech using cel shading. It was a cartoon and the developers want to make the game look as close as possible to the show.

garou_d · Sep 14, 2002

what's the 1st game using cel shading ? JSR or another one ?

Bishamon · Sep 14, 2002

Sure, Sega may not have invented it, but it was Sega who made it 'trendy' for use in videogames.

I agree that it's being flogged to death now; JSR (JGR) suited it, and maybe that Cel Damage game, but that's about it.

Even Sega changed their minds when they were trying it out for HoTD3.

10 in 2010 · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by Blaine:


Saying Cel Shading is Sega's idea is like saying all 3D games are a rip-off of Virtua Fighter because it was 'first'.

Sega didn't invent Cel-Shading.<hr></blockquote>

i didn't mean it like that, i meant like now sega's done it all of them are doing it, whilst someone else should have gave it a crack first.

like they waited for sega to 'test the water' if you will.

Blaine · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by garou_d:
what's the 1st game using cel shading ? JSR or another one ?<hr></blockquote>

Jet Set Radio was the first commercial game to use cel-shading, to the best of my knowledge.

Cel-shading, cartoon shading, pen and ink shading or whatever you'd call it has been around for almost a decade.

Honestly I don't know 'who' invented it, but there's been cel-shading plug-ins for 3D programs since at least 1994. JSR was released in 2000.

It was still cool using a real-time cel-shading but a lot of that was the Dreamcast hardware itself that made it possible.

My opinion of cel-shading is it's is cool for certain games, One Piece Island for example looks beautiful and I really wouldn't have it any other way. House of the Dead 3, however I thought looked kinda stupid.

There's so many other NPR techniques that could be used in a game that it pisses me off no one else is trying them. The closest thing I saw was Mojib Ribbon for the PS2 which is using a watercolor type rendering. Similar mathematics and procedures but a totally different effect.

An all line art game would also be cool, might be a little controversial, but it'd be cool. Like a coloring book come to life. Or a Manga based title.

naitram · Sep 14, 2002

I think cell-shading is a welcome concept. I just got done looking at some old Gamefans on the can, and fuck man, 3-D games look like complete shit after about 5 years. How could Toshinden look like such sweetness when it came out, but look so incredibly horrible now? It's bizarre.

Anyways, I'm so sick of plastic-looking polygon games. Of course I say that while I drool over Soul Calibur 2 at the arcades (which will look like shit in 2007).

Uhh I don't where I was going with this, except that cel-shading is a good compromise for all the dumbfucks out there who think 2-D is a thing of the past. <img src="graemlins/angry.gif" border="0" alt="[Angry]" />

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: naitram ]

candycab · Sep 14, 2002

This thread is a pretty good example of how most people cant see past the graphics and just enjoy a game !
Actually now that I read back throught maybe that wasnt a very good observation ?

I will explain what I meant.

Yeah graphics are cool but its all about the gameplay !

Dont get me wrong I am not trying to insult anyone , but damn , whats the point of buying a game based on its graphics ?

Personally I like the cell shaded look ,and think it could lend itself to any type of game just fine.
As for what I am tired of seeing , that would be all the stuff flooding the market that is nothing but flash and very shallow to no gameplay.

There just isnt any point to a game thats beautiful if it plays like shit , unless you want to call it a tech demo maybe ?

Not to bash Sega , since I grew up playing their games and have owned every console they have evr made, but they can be a fine example of what I mean. They make some very cool games that look incredible but after about 5 minutes they get boaring as hell ! Im talking arcade here not home stuff , unless its a port.

Of course arcade machines are designed to suck the quarters off of you within 3 to 5 minutes and Sega usually does a good job at it.

These are the type of games we dont need more of on home consoles.

I enjoy Sega games , but the arcade ports can be rather boaring alone , now mulitplayer can be a different story.

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: candycab ]

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: candycab ]

K9999 · Sep 14, 2002

The Cel-Shading technique is a nice idea, if used for the proper games.

The JSR games are perfectly suited for it, same with the new Robotech game. But I think I can do without a Cel Shaded FPS and Driving Sim.

Blaine · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by candycab:
This thread is a pretty good example of how most people cant see past the graphics and just enjoy a game !<hr></blockquote>

I agree whole heartedly. I care to a degree, but that's just icing. I think a game may look good a certain way but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy the game itself, or more so what I consider to be the ultimate gamer-crime...not even try it because of how it looks.

It's a 'game', the game play is all that matters.

I just express an opinion about graphics only as an aside, since that's what this topic is about. Under no circumstances would I consider good graphics or lack there of to be a reason not to at least TRY a game.

I've only ever been guily once of bad-graphic-prejudice. Iron Soldier for The Jaguar. It's really bad, so much so that I had a hard time enjoying it. Maybe I wouldn't enjoy the game normally but we'll never know. I'd like to think I just didn't like the game. Bad 3d is just...bad.

But you're right, graphics aren't the alpha and omega channels. Graphics for me make up less than 20% of my overall 'enjoyment': they can enhance it but not detract from it enough to destroy the game for me.

candycab · Sep 14, 2002

Thats funny Blaine , I used to like Ion Soldier for some reason ? I tried to play it about a month ago and it dawned on me that the controll was absolute crap ! The one on the cd is even worse.

I guess I was just trying to love my Jag back then ?
Its really very sad to think about what the Trammiel family did to Atari !

BlackSpy · Sep 14, 2002

I like cell shading as its one developers can exploit hardware to drive towards 'better' or more interesting visual style rather than just more realistic looking graphics - something that I find very tedious.

When you look at the concept art for some games it is so impressive, then at the end of it you get another brown and gray game with realistic weapons.

On the line art game you theroise on Blaine, there is a PS2 motorbike game that has that as an unlockable reward, looks quite cool (they have loads of filters as rewards actually).

chimpmeister · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by SPINMASTER X:
they are whoring the hell out of cell shading. Only certain games should use it namely games made after a cartoon series but they use it way to fuckin much. I thought it was so cool when i first saw it and now its starting to get on my nerves. And yeah I saw that cell shading stuff in commercials before i saw it on a sega game. Sega just gave it the "ok" and decided to use it in videogames.<hr></blockquote>

I agree 100% with your comments. Cel shading is great for cartoon-based games like Looney Tunes Space Race (which is excellent on the DC), but games like Celda and the new cel-shaded FPS look to be really lame. They should just stick to cartoon-based games for cel-shading, rather than trying to all jump on the bandwagon . . . <img src="graemlins/ohno.gif" border="0" alt="[Oh No]" />

EVIL NICK · Sep 14, 2002

Best use of cel-shading will be Klonoa 2 when it comes out...
It just suits that game...

evil wasabi · Sep 14, 2002

I love Cel Shading.

It's like playing Anime.

K9999 · Sep 14, 2002

Has anyone seen the pics for a Japanese MMORPG called True Fantasy, its for the X-Box.

Its a cel shaded game that actually looks very promising, only the characters and enemies are cel shaded while everything else is 3D. I was pretty surprised when I first saw it, because it seems very fitting. A nice twist on the MMORPG games, only problem is that no plans of a US release has been stated.

Daisuke Jigen · Sep 15, 2002

Originally posted by chimpmeister:


I agree 100% with your comments. Cel shading is great for cartoon-based games like Looney Tunes Space Race (which is excellent on the DC), but games like Celda and the new cel-shaded FPS look to be really lame. They should just stick to cartoon-based games for cel-shading, rather than trying to all jump on the bandwagon . . . <img src="graemlins/ohno.gif" border="0" alt="[Oh No]" /> <hr></blockquote>

I don't think you've seen Zelda in action, have you? <img src="graemlins/spock.gif" border="0" alt="[Spock]" />

SPINMASTER X · Sep 15, 2002

Zelda is fine cel shaded. its the cartoony style of if that looks all lame and stuff. But I gradually started to like it. However First Person Shooters look lame Cell Shaded.

EDIT: I shouldn't say it looks lame cuz it would prolly look cool. I should say it wouldn't fit a FPS. I tend to go for extremes when i say things, sorry.

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: SPINMASTER X ]

Shin Guile X · Sep 15, 2002

Originally posted by K9999:
Has anyone seen the pics for a Japanese MMORPG called True Fantasy, its for the X-Box.

Its a cel shaded game that actually looks very promising, only the characters and enemies are cel shaded while everything else is 3D. I was pretty surprised when I first saw it, because it seems very fitting. A nice twist on the MMORPG games, only problem is that no plans of a US release has been stated.<hr></blockquote>

I have seen it and yes it does look incredible. I hope they do bring it out here. The Xbox could use all the help it can get when it comes to RPG's.

Nesagwa · Sep 15, 2002

So when are we going to see KOF 2003 Cel Shaded Edition???

(Oh man just imagine how bad that would be)

Verbatum · Sep 15, 2002

Gun Grave is half cel-shaded, half traditional. Personally, I think the style of the game lends itself well to use cel-shading. I would like to have seen it purly cel-shaded, but it still gives the gameplay and such some nice candy!

Loopz · Sep 15, 2002

Cel-shading is just like any other graphic technique, like digitized gfx or rendering. It all depends on whether or not the subject matter and style of gameplay suits it. Jet Set really takes the cake, the cel-shading really helped pull you into that ultra-cool futuristic anime-inspired alternate universe. After seeing it in action at E3, I can safely say that Zelda also benefits from this new technique as well. People need to stop bitching about this game based on screenshots. I played it at E3 and thought it looked drop-dead amazing, easily the sweetest artistic effort yet on the Cube. One example of cel-shading abuse would have to be Auto Modellista...I played it and thought it was a piss-poor GT clone that would be garnering ZERO attention if not for the cel-shading. I definitely prefer a more realistic appearance for a racing game that features real cars. We just have to realize that it's all just one more phase the game industry is going through. Someone else will try some new technique, and then everyone will forget all about cel-shading and ape whatever's new and trendy. Doesn't everyone remember the legion of shitty rendered games inspired by Donkey Kong Country and Killer Instinct? It's the exact same thing.

Cell Shading!!

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