SNK blew it.

If there's anything incredible about the neo-geo platform, it's the great software available. I am contemplating getting either an AES, CD, or CDZ, but the situation pretty much sucks from any side.

AES:
+ Instant load times, still supported
- Prices and availability for top titles

CD:
+ Inexpensive Software and Hardware, large game library
- No new games made, unbearable load times

CDZ:
+ Expensive console, inexpensive software
- No new games made, slow load times

We all know that the AES is the ultimate solution, but how many of us can actually afford to collect most of the games worth a damn? If SNK had just stuck to the CD platform, and provided it with updates such as a 8x reader, and more memory for less frequent loads, every neo fan would have been better off. <IMG SRC="smilies/ohno.gif" border="0">

Why don't you buy an AES and a MVS Converter if you want to play ALL the games? Or just by a neo geo candy.

I prefer cartridge... You know this brings up a good comparison... I bought a Night Striker arcade cabinet in 1997 for $150. The board could probably be had for $50 or so. Now the game is from 1989, but I still think it looks really cool today, with the psuedo 3d graphics and very fast game play. Recently I found it for PSX. You know what, it loads on every board and before bosses... it is quite annoying (but it is a perfect, and I mean perfect port... I have played through every possible ending on the arcade machine many, many times.) I bet that it could have been done on Genesis with a cart and played perfectly! I don't know, I just like the faster loading and durability of a cart system. Besides, no matter how good the laser lens is, it will break down. It is a case of simple physics. As argon is released under the lens (decay) it will score and stain the glass causing the laser to no longer focus it's reader. Soon the lens is shit and no games will load. In time all laser systems will die, but I bet you an atari 2600 will last longer than we do!

-Nick

kogo:

You make some valid points. Being a Neo gamer is expensive if you have AES (Which I do. However, I don't have as many games as I would want and some of them are pretty old.) Neo CD and Cdz have long loading times which turns most people off form the system. I do love anything the SNK makes though. If I had the money I would definetly buy all of these systems.

It's nice that you'd try to defend silicon as a viable data medium, but it's just not practical for the average gamer. A 4200 Megabit CD-R(700MB) costs approximatly 10c. It's perfectly suited to game distribution, as it can be rapidly produced, and store a large amount of data inexpensively. These are all traits which plague AES carts. A 20x cd reader should eliminate most load time concerns. Remember you can pick up a 50x PC CDRom for under 30$. Cartriges just might worth it if the costs were reduced to a reasonable level. MOTW costs approximatly 500$. We can probably attribute 80% of it's price to physical memory, about 700 Megabits, or 90Megabytes worth. On the open market, you can get 512 MEGABYTES of PC 133 memory for around 50$! That's 4096 Megabits... offering roughly 6 times as much storage capacity for 1\8 of the price. I'd imagine the price for the game MOTW, after you cover the overhead of the cart's memory value, is more than enough to cover the expenses of producing the game. So why are AES carts still so expensive? I'd like to see some hard data on values of the roms inside a common AES cart. It seems like SNK is not only shorthanding their own customers by charging so much for software, but themselves. The cost of NEO software will prevent it from ever garnering even limited mainstreme success.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, 2D games simply do not handle and perform as nicely when they are drawn from a CD source, there is something about data drawn from the ROM of a cartridge that cannot be replicated......

Lee (garg7) http://www.neogeotemple.com

Originally posted by kogo:
<STRONG>It's nice that you'd try to defend silicon as a viable data medium, but it's just not practical for the average gamer. A 4200 Megabit CD-R(700MB) costs approximatly 10c. It's perfectly suited to game distribution, as it can be rapidly produced, and store a large amount of data inexpensively. These are all traits which plague AES carts. A 20x cd reader should eliminate most load time concerns. Remember you can pick up a 50x PC CDRom for under 30$. Cartriges just might worth it if the costs were reduced to a reasonable level. MOTW costs approximatly 500$. We can probably attribute 80% of it's price to physical memory, about 700 Megabits, or 90Megabytes worth. On the open market, you can get 512 MEGABYTES of PC 133 memory for around 50$! That's 4096 Megabits... offering roughly 6 times as much storage capacity for 1\8 of the price. I'd imagine the price for the game MOTW, after you cover the overhead of the cart's memory value, is more than enough to cover the expenses of producing the game. So why are AES carts still so expensive? I'd like to see some hard data on values of the roms inside a common AES cart. It seems like SNK is not only shorthanding their own customers by charging so much for software, but themselves. The cost of NEO software will prevent it from ever garnering even limited mainstreme success.</STRONG>

Click to expand...

Very valid points kogo. Like I said before, if you want to play the games on the AES and are short on cash, just shell out the money to buy a MVS Converter. The reason the prices are so high for some games is due to their rarity. You can't just go into EB and buy a neo geo home cart. Stick around longer and you might understand better <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

One other thing... Why the hell didn't SNK design MVS and AES carts to be identical?

Kogo, at one period of time AES games were less expensive than MVS games so SNK did not want arcade owners to use AES games in MVS machines.

Kogo,
Collectors are responsible for Garou costing $500, not SNK. Garou debuted with a price tag of (roughly) $300. The price of RAM is cheap, but Neo-Geo
cartridges use ROMs (Read Only Memory) to store game information, not RAM chips. RAM (Random Access Memory) is only temporary, and any information
that is stored in RAM disappears once the computer / system is turned off. ROMs house permanent information, and it is costly to manufacturer them. When you
turn off a cartridge system, does the information in your game cartridge disappear? No, it doesn't, hence the difference between the two. Try doing a search on
ROM manufacturing, and you'll soon discover that 96megs of ROM would cost you a pretty penny. Imagine the production costs involved to produce 1,000 home
cartridges each with 96megs of ROMs, and you can easily understand why Neo-Geo games cost so much. CD storage can be a Godsend, but even DVD is
limited to about 1 Gigabyte of uncompressed storage (more can be stored using compression techniques). In which case, ROMs allow the Neo-Geo system to have
a limitless storage capacity. SNK could release a 3,000 Gigabit cartridge (375megs), but the price would be phenomenal. 2D games benefit from being stored on
cartridge anyway.
Footnote: ROMs can be erased with a very expensive piece of equipment called a ROM eraser, but the average consumer doesn't have access to this technology.

[ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: NeoLord ]

Lord Akidadus is right.
If you are let down by AES carts' high prices go for MVS. Like i always say:
MVS is for gamers
AES is for collectors.
That's it.

The MVS system is a cheap alternative, but don't expect newer releases like Sengoku3 to be any cheaper than a home cartridge.

Hey:

kogo, everything you have said is fairly accurate and a valid point, but you know what? To some people, games are worth more than their price tags, and I don't mean collectors. I don't want to sound sappy, but there's a thrill that I get every time I see an MVS in an arcade or when I see the SNK logo somewhere. And if you can afford it and you truly LOVE great games, SNK is the way to play.

-SakurabaStyle

Neo-Lord:
#1: DVD-Roms are 4.5 Gigabytes uncompressed.

#2: 512 Megabit Flash-Roms can currently be attained for 70$, and this it at retail. Lord knows how much cheaper they'd be in bulk. My point was, SNK should have stuck with the CD route, as they probably would have had greater mainstream success.

I guess you guys are right about AES cart prices being driven by collecters. Do you guys have any reccomendations for cheap mgs->aes converters? I don't need anything complex like the phantom because I won't be playing the newer ecrypted games.

Originally posted by kogo:
<STRONG>Neo-Lord:
#1: DVD-Roms are 4.5 Gigabytes uncompressed.

Click to expand...

Computer software stored on DVD only use 1Gig of if its storage capacity (this is where my comparison comes from). For example: have you ever played Under The Killing Moon for PC? It used to come on 4 CDs, but now you can buy it on 2 DVD Roms.

#2: 512 Megabit Flash-Roms can currently be attained for 70$, and this it at retail. Lord knows how much cheaper they'd be in bulk. My point was, SNK should have stuck with the CD route, as they probably would have had greater mainstream success.

Click to expand...

Don't forget production costs and the money spent developing the actual game.

you guys are right about AES cart prices being driven by collecters. Do you guys have any reccomendations for cheap mgs->aes converters? I don't need anything complex like the phantom because I won't be playing the newer ecrypted games.</STRONG>

Click to expand...

You might want to buy a Pranslation. This convertor can only play games up to KOF '99, but you said the newer games do not matter to you.

Kogo, I actually still have my old converter that I mounted in a home cart, I'm selling it for $150 shipped. Here are some pics:
http://www.mindspring.com/~leeja/p1.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~leeja/p2.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~leeja/p3.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~leeja/p4.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~leeja/p5.jpg http://www.mindspring.com/~leeja/p6.jpg

It plays all carts up to KOF98......

Email me if interested <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Lee (garg7) http://www.neogeotemple.com

PS - sorry for the sale post in the 16-bit Neo forum, but hey, its on topic! <IMG SRC="smilies/glee.gif" border="0">

Kogo, youre right about the AES games being way too expensive. However, I think that the fact the games cost so much makes the neo geo that much more interesting. The waiting for a good deal to go through...The months of saving money....The salivating when the title arrives...This is what makes the neo geo great. After all, I doubt that as many people would be interested in the neo geo if everyone had all the games on a cd. Just my 2 cents