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[OCEAN]
12-03-2014, 11:37 AM
Hi!

I recently purchased an "untested" King of Dragons B+C CPS1 board (which, of course, turns on dead ;) ) and, giving it physically looks pretty good and battery reads around 2v, I'm assuming it's dead and needs revival.

Now, I've done this before with a Captain Commando board, but when I headed to the dead battery society to grab the "replacement" rom images I encountered 2 doubts with this board...here hoping someone can help :)

1-I haven't got a clue of which of the 8bit/32pin versions it is: US 910910, ETC910711 or ETC90805. Is there any physical way to check it on the board? Will the revival work if I replace the eeproms with a different version?

2-My board has less sockets than it seems it should have. Checking some images on google it seems it's missing one whole column, but no eeproms are missing though. It's like the eeproms were placed in a smaller B board (Captain Commando Style) instead of the larger ones (Carrier Airwing style). Should there be any problem with this? Is it something common when it comes to CPS1?

Here's a picture of the board itself:

20996

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks :D

bustedstr8
12-03-2014, 02:16 PM
1- You need to match versions or it will probably crash.
You can pull one of the program roms that is not common to multiple versions
and run it through Romident. http://romident.coinopflorida.com/
...or just yank the 8bit roms and use a 16bit set.

2- Not sure exactly what you mean...but some boards would use multiple 8bit grfx roms and some would use less 16bit roms. They all work out the same.

Tyranix95
12-03-2014, 02:23 PM
I bet someone swapped your "B" board.

[OCEAN]
12-04-2014, 05:55 AM
Thanks for the reply!

Looking at the eeprom labels it seems I have an ETC version, since US ones seem to be labeled "KDU", whereas others I've found like mine are labeled "KDE"...too bad there are 2 different ETC sets :/

Romindent looks great for checking, I should ask someone to dump one of the roms for me (don't have a reader/writer).

Using a 16bit set sound like a good option too, but do you know which roms should be used? I've been googling boards all day and can't seem to find a pic of a one using the 16bit rom in socket 34!

What I meant in the second question was that my B board is smaller than the ones I've found around:

21020

While all eeproms are present, they don't match the socket numbers, since there are less sockets in the B board. Since in the "original" board none of the "missing" sockets are used, I assume the game will work anyway... but I'm not sure about it.

Thanks!

mikey
12-04-2014, 11:27 AM
Looks like one of the Japanese revisions uses socket 33 for one of the program roms, which must be under the C board. This is also verified by the MAME set kodj. I don't see any that use 34 though, and I don't see a MAME dump that uses 34 either.

21027

I don't think the type of board you have matters, as long as the roms end up where they're supposed to. Your board would likely work the way it is. If you changed those 8bit eproms for a 16bit ones, you just have to make sure the remaining 8bit roms would be in the correct spots. In your case, I believe eproms 28, 29, 35, & 36 wound become 22, and 30, 31, 37, & 38 would become 23. Someone would have to verify that though.

[OCEAN]
12-05-2014, 02:37 AM
Looks like one of the Japanese revisions uses socket 33 for one of the program roms, which must be under the C board. This is also verified by the MAME set kodj. I don't see any that use 34 though, and I don't see a MAME dump that uses 34 either.

I don't think the type of board you have matters, as long as the roms end up where they're supposed to. Your board would likely work the way it is. If you changed those 8bit eproms for a 16bit ones, you just have to make sure the remaining 8bit roms would be in the correct spots. In your case, I believe eproms 28, 29, 35, & 36 wound become 22, and 30, 31, 37, & 38 would become 23. Someone would have to verify that though.

Thanks for the answer!

Checking the dead battery society though ( http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/ ), I've found there is no revival option for the JAP board. The patch for the 16bit eeprom however does state that the rom to change is that of socket 34...but I haven't been able to find any pic of such type of boards :/

EDIT: Ok, I checked the rom files of all versions of KOD at the mame database ( http://www.mamedb.com/list.php?fuzzy_name=king+of+dragons ) and it seems that, judging by my eeprom labels and mame's rom naming, my romset is consistent with the ETC910805 version. I guess I'll try reviving the board using that version, maybe burn the fixed images in new eeproms just in case it doesn't work. And then pray it works ;) I'll let you know how it turns out.

Cheers!

[OCEAN]
12-22-2014, 01:43 PM
Well, I finally got some tome to revive the King of Dragons board but... sadly, it didn't work: when I turn on the game, I briefly get some garbage on screen and then black.

Now, since I didn't know if the game ran correctly before (since I bought it dead) I swapped all of the socketed roms & chips of a Captain Commando B-Board into the King of Dragons B-board and it worked flawlessly, so I can discard any problems related to the B-Board (and A-Board, since I tried it with several I have working well).

I also plugged the recently modified King of Dragons C-Board into Captain Commando and the game worked without a problem, so the revival modification of the King of Dragons C-Board went fine too and I can discard problems in there.

The eeproms used to burn the replacement are the same kind I used for the Captain Commando revival (went to the same electronics shop), so I guess it isn't a problem related to the type of eeproms either.

So... I basically don't know where to go from here. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks!

mikey
12-22-2014, 02:07 PM
Sounds like an issue with the roms for sure if the b and c boards are working with another games roms installed. Either a rom is bad, an incorrect type of rom is being used somewhere, or the order/placement of the roms are wrong. Did you end up using the 16bit set to revive your board, or the 8bit set? Either way, what eeprom(s) did you use for the revived set, and what does it say under the socket for the type of rom needed (should be something like HN27C4000)?

bustedstr8
12-22-2014, 03:46 PM
It could also be slow eproms, did you use 150ns or faster?

mainman
12-23-2014, 01:12 AM
So the A, B and C boards work. The only thing left is the KOD pal and to reconfirm your program roms. I assuming you confirmed the mask roms are in their proper sockets.

[OCEAN]
12-23-2014, 04:35 AM
Thanks for the answers!

So I checked the order of the mask roms and program roms and they are consistent with the rest of board pics I've found out there, so that shouldn't be the problem.

Now, as Mainman suggested, I checked the pal and, while the KD29B pal is indeed present in socket 1A, I just found there's the CCPRG pal in socket 11D and the IOB1 in socket 12D. CCPRG is one of Captain Commando's pals, so it seems the original owner of this board put a King of Dragons romset in a Captain Commando B-Board and left one of the former pals...wonder why the hell did he do that.

Anyway, King of Dragons is supposed to have the IOB1 in socket 11D, so I took away the CCPRG and put in the IOB1 in place. Still no luck, the game shows garbage and then goes to black.

Since the original King of Dragons B-Board doesn't have a 12D socket, I left it empty... but this makes me wonder again if the King of Dragons romset can really work on this B-Board which is missing the whole 3rd column of mask roms, even if they're empty in the original:

21509

Anyone has any kind of experience with this? Should it work anyway? Unfortunately, none of the B-Boards of any of my other CPS1 games (GNG, SF2CE, 3Wonders, KOTR, Megaman, C.Airwing, CCommando, Pang3) has exactly the same shape/sockets as the original KOD to try it :/

As for the replacement roms I burnt with the "fixed" code for the revival, they are the same I used for Captain Commando, so I'm assuming it shouldn't be a problem of speed or type. They are labelled "M27C1001/10F1 L/96005 V5/MYYS 96 035"

Thanks again

bustedstr8
12-23-2014, 08:34 AM
Put KD29B in 1A this for grafx decoding.

In 11D try running BPRG1. By the name it seems like this socket has something to do with the program roms.
CCPRG sounds like Captain Commando Program
BPRG1 sounds like Basic Program 1...this seems like the default PAL in late CPS1 games.
You can pullone from your Knights board.

In 12D put IOB1 (Input Output Buffer 1...maybe?)

Asure
12-25-2014, 06:34 PM
The larger sockets, above the cluster of 8 eproms (27C010) in the bottom right, two 27C4096 make up eight 27C010.
For example 28/29 & 35/36A combine in a certain way into a single 27C4096, which goes into slot 21 if i am not mistaken. (The game would use 2x27C4096 into slots 21 and 22.)

Get a desuicided set of your choice, for 27C4096. Remove the 8 eproms, and burn 2x 27C4096 for 21 & 22. Done.

Join code for dos using http://www.neillcorlett.com/cmdpack/ stuff (byteshuf)


rem For program rom on 89624B-3 boards
rem
rem [ 1=28 ] [ 3=33 ]
rem [ 2=29 ] [ 4=34 ]
rem
rem GFX rom on 89624B-3
rem
rem [ 1=10 ] [ 3=20 ]
rem [ 2=11 ] [ 4=21 ]

copy /b 33_E09H.bin + 34_E10H.bin def0
copy /b 28_E09F.bin + 29_E10F.bin def1

byteshuf -s 32_8H.bin def0 def1

The resulting "32_8H.bin" is for a 27C4096 or 27C400 in my case as i had a different game/romboard, i forget which one.

I've had mixed results with the dead battery society files. Not all fixes work 100%, some do not even boot. (I remember Captain commando was one of them.)

[OCEAN]
12-29-2014, 10:17 AM
Well, I finally got some time to try this: removed the CCPRG PAL, switched IOB1 to 12D and used Knights of The Round's BPRG1 in socket 11D.
As a result the board is now working but with major graphical errors: controls, sound and gameplay are working fine, but the graphics are all messed up.
There are like black bars in the image, which affect both background and sprites. Here are a couple of pics:

21631

21632

Any ideas of what can be causing this?
I double checked the order of the mask roms (where I think the graphics are stored) and it matches the ones I've found around.
From what I see in pictures the original and bigger King of Dragons B-boards don't have a socketed BPRG1, so I guess it's somehow embedded in the board.

Looks like this thing is slowly getting closer to working, big thanks for the help!


Put KD29B in 1A this for grafx decoding.

In 11D try running BPRG1. By the name it seems like this socket has something to do with the program roms.
CCPRG sounds like Captain Commando Program
BPRG1 sounds like Basic Program 1...this seems like the default PAL in late CPS1 games.
You can pullone from your Knights board.

In 12D put IOB1 (Input Output Buffer 1...maybe?)

[OCEAN]
12-29-2014, 10:30 AM
This is interesting, I guess I should try this in order to discard any problems with the "fixed" 8-bit versions of the ROMs, right?

From what I see in the dead battery society and pictures of the 16bit version of KOD, there is only one 16bit rom in socket 24. So, just to clarify, you are suggesting to use this one AND merging 28/29/35/36 into a second one?

Could the messed up graphics shown in the pics above be related to a faulty fix?

Strange that the Captain Commando fix from the dead battery society didn't work for you, it actually did for me!

Thanks!


The larger sockets, above the cluster of 8 eproms (27C010) in the bottom right, two 27C4096 make up eight 27C010.
For example 28/29 & 35/36A combine in a certain way into a single 27C4096, which goes into slot 21 if i am not mistaken. (The game would use 2x27C4096 into slots 21 and 22.)

Get a desuicided set of your choice, for 27C4096. Remove the 8 eproms, and burn 2x 27C4096 for 21 & 22. Done.

Join code for dos using http://www.neillcorlett.com/cmdpack/ stuff (byteshuf)


rem For program rom on 89624B-3 boards
rem
rem [ 1=28 ] [ 3=33 ]
rem [ 2=29 ] [ 4=34 ]
rem
rem GFX rom on 89624B-3
rem
rem [ 1=10 ] [ 3=20 ]
rem [ 2=11 ] [ 4=21 ]

copy /b 33_E09H.bin + 34_E10H.bin def0
copy /b 28_E09F.bin + 29_E10F.bin def1

byteshuf -s 32_8H.bin def0 def1

The resulting "32_8H.bin" is for a 27C4096 or 27C400 in my case as i had a different game/romboard, i forget which one.

I've had mixed results with the dead battery society files. Not all fixes work 100%, some do not even boot. (I remember Captain commando was one of them.)

bustedstr8
12-29-2014, 04:48 PM
The boards probably use a different memory map. Compare the memory map of KoD to a game that originally uses that game.
By the looks of it you have 4 correct and 4 wrong placed roms.



http://www.mamedb.com/game/kod

[OCEAN]
12-30-2014, 11:49 AM
I just compared the rom offset against Knights of the Round and Captain Commando, which use the same type of B-Board, and reordered the mask roms accordingly (5,1,7,3,6,2,8,4 in the 1st column) but the result is more or less the same: black bars and messed up graphics.

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but I basically checked which offset corresponds to each socket using the Knights and CCommando boards and mameinfo and reordered the King of Dragons ones accordingly. I also tried a few different combinations to no avail.

Kinda stuck here now :/

Thanks again for the help!


The boards probably use a different memory map. Compare the memory map of KoD to a game that originally uses that game.
By the looks of it you have 4 correct and 4 wrong placed roms.



http://www.mamedb.com/game/kod

Rot
12-30-2014, 12:23 PM
Captain Commando is hard find on cps. Any way to restore it on the board.. as this looks like an uphill battle right now with the KoD?

Kid Panda
12-30-2014, 12:25 PM
Captain Commando is hard find on cps. Any way to restore it on the board.. as this looks like an uphill battle right now with the KoD?

Hard find? I have two.

[OCEAN]
12-30-2014, 12:28 PM
I already have a working copy of Captain Commando, so I'd rather have one of KoD too ;) Plus, having all the original KoD roms and C-Board, I think it's a pity not to get it working!


Captain Commando is hard find on cps. Any way to restore it on the board.. as this looks like an uphill battle right now with the KoD?

Rot
12-30-2014, 12:38 PM
Hard find? I have two.

I will gladly buy 1 of tem from you... seriously I am looking for it. :D


;3835183']I already have a working copy of Captain Commando, so I'd rather have one of KoD too ;) Plus, having all the original KoD roms and C-Board, I think it's a pity not to get it working!

Then go ahead.. sadly I know almost nothing about your issue so I can't be much of a help here. Fingers crossed you make I work.

Kid Panda
12-30-2014, 01:00 PM
I will gladly buy 1 of tem from you... seriously I am looking for it. :D

Nope.

Asure
01-02-2015, 05:11 PM
You need to use sockets 1-8, (4A -10A) and put the KD pal in the upper left socket.
This board 91635-B maps rom different, so you should probably use this rom order:

1M (4A)
7M (5A)
3M (6A)
6M (7A)
8M (9A)
2M (8A)
4M (10A)

Put them this order, and show us what it looks like on screen.. :)

[OCEAN]
01-05-2015, 08:25 AM
Thanks Asure,

I already checked the memory map of the board and tried that order (check out my last post in the thread, it's the same maskrom order as CaptCommando and KOTRound) with the KOD PAL in place though, but still shows the graphics all messed up.


You need to use sockets 1-8, (4A -10A) and put the KD pal in the upper left socket.
This board 91635-B maps rom different, so you should probably use this rom order:

1M (4A)
7M (5A)
3M (6A)
6M (7A)
8M (9A)
2M (8A)
4M (10A)

Put them this order, and show us what it looks like on screen.. :)

Pasky
01-05-2015, 11:00 AM
Gonna agree with everyone else here, looks like the graphic roms are not being addressed correctly. Either you have them out of order, the PAL is not operating correctly (or is incorrect), there's some bad connection on one of the slots, or the mask rom itself (or several) are damaged.

[OCEAN]
01-05-2015, 01:58 PM
Well, after one more stone in the road, I finally got this thing working properly!!!! Thanks guys for all the help.

So here's what I got: ordering he mask roms according to the different B-Board memory map and using the King Of Dragons KD29B PAL didn't work, BUT keeping that order AND using either Knights of the Round KR63B or Captain Commando's CC63B PALS it DID work.

Checking MAME's CPS1 driver it seems that PAL establishes the memory map for the mask roms, so I'm guessing either the KD29B pal is broken or it just isn't compatilbe with that type of B-Board (somehow misses the extra slots?). Since CCommando and KOTR use the same memory map I guess it makes sense.

Now, the damned thing still wasn't working 100% properly: one layer of background was missing as you can see in this pic:

21782

The graphics that were showing were correct, so I tried replacing the "fixed" eeproms from the dead battery society with the original "dead" ones one by one. It turns out that the game was working identically using th original KDE_31a or the "fixed" KDEX_31a from the ETC 910805 set. I re-burnt KDEX_31a to discard a problem with the eeprom and it did the same.

Finally I burnt the 32Mb 40pin ETC 910711 version and used it on slot 32 (34 in the original board). And, finally, everything works correctly!

21783

So, I'm guessing the KDE_31a fixed rom is wrong...or somehow that board just doesn't get along with it.

To summarize (in case anyone runs in a board like this one):


Got a working Captain Commando B-board with an original set of King of Dragons roms and C-Board in it.
"Revived" the board fixing the C-Board and using the ETC 910805 eeproms from the dead battery society, but the game didn't start
The B-Board was still carrying CCPRG, one of Captain Commando's 3 PALs
Replacing CCPRG with the BPRG1 PAL found in many other games made the game run, but with corrupted graphics
Altering the order of the maskroms to fit the different B-Board's memory map and replacing the KOD's KD29B PAL with CC63B or KR63B made graphics look fine, but with a missing layer
Using the 32Mbit fixed eeprom from set ETC 910711 instead of the 4 8Mbit ones from set ETC 910805 made the board work again


So, now I have a working King of Dragons set, but it needs a BPRG1 PAL and either CC63B or KR63B PALs to work. It would be ideal to get replacement ones, so I don't have to swap them from the other games every time I want to play.

Anyone knows of these PALs can be cloned in some way?

Thanks again for the help! :)

Pasky
01-05-2015, 02:24 PM
PAL dumps exist, there's an archive for them, just search the web. It's also possible to create your own if you know what you're doing. Then you can just burn them to a GAL16V8, which is basically a re-writable PAL, similar to what a FPGA is to a CPLD :P.

bustedstr8
01-05-2015, 03:33 PM
So much win :)

[OCEAN]
01-07-2015, 01:26 PM
Great, just found it. Will try to burn a duplicate of those so I don't have to keep changing them between boards.

Thanks!


PAL dumps exist, there's an archive for them, just search the web. It's also possible to create your own if you know what you're doing. Then you can just burn them to a GAL16V8, which is basically a re-writable PAL, similar to what a FPGA is to a CPLD :P.