- Joined
- Jan 4, 2002
- Posts
- 9,353
Last edited:
1994 NeoGeo proto by VISCO: Puzzlekko Club
- Thread starter Shito
- Start date
leGionellz
Pancho Villa is my Direct Ancestor,
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2002
- Posts
- 1,754
Ok.. Any more on this ?
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Posts
- 908
Monkey Wrench or Monkey Business?
I actually first saw this post early this morning, but wanted to do a little bit of research before posting.
First off, thank you very much for the pic. It's very nice to have that. As Shito said, yes we knew about the title, licensee, and location test (as documented in the paperwork provided by Xacrow back in January of 2005. However we never had anything more.
Personally, I had dismissed this entry (along with several others over the years) as a jamma board game. (not a neo-geo cartridge) And I had "evidence" supporting this conclusion by way of a Visco advertisement in an arcade industry magazine. But after seeing that photograph, I must say that I guess I was wrong.
There are however a few strange nuances with this title screen. (by NO means am I accusing Shito of ANY monkey business, it could be his source and not him, and/or I could be wrong with my observations) But some things are very odd.
--the other Visco game from this same time period (1994) has "VISCO GAMES" displayed above the copyright line in large original fonts. why would this one be different?
--the fonts used for the large "insert coin" text written above the copyright line are the fonts used by another neo-geo licensee, Video System, NOT Visco. (that's REALLY wierd!)
You can tell from the photo that it was taken at a show because you can see the reflections off the monitor glass of many industrial/warehouse building style lights high up in the ceiling. Also looks like the game is inside a typical Japanese style white metal candy type arcade cabinet.
(amazing how just one photo can give so much information huh?)
Anyhow, either way, we have absolutely no room left in the "1994/95 area" of the master list so this is a big monkey wrench to the work. But hey, how can we complain. Another neo-geo game title is always welcome, especially when it is not a fighting game!
Interestingly enough, being a Visco game could mean it would be "easy" for NCI to bring to us (assuming it exists of course) because of their obvious relationship with Visco and their unreleased neogeo products.
Fascinating...
I actually first saw this post early this morning, but wanted to do a little bit of research before posting.
First off, thank you very much for the pic. It's very nice to have that. As Shito said, yes we knew about the title, licensee, and location test (as documented in the paperwork provided by Xacrow back in January of 2005. However we never had anything more.
Personally, I had dismissed this entry (along with several others over the years) as a jamma board game. (not a neo-geo cartridge) And I had "evidence" supporting this conclusion by way of a Visco advertisement in an arcade industry magazine. But after seeing that photograph, I must say that I guess I was wrong.
There are however a few strange nuances with this title screen. (by NO means am I accusing Shito of ANY monkey business, it could be his source and not him, and/or I could be wrong with my observations) But some things are very odd.
--the other Visco game from this same time period (1994) has "VISCO GAMES" displayed above the copyright line in large original fonts. why would this one be different?
--the fonts used for the large "insert coin" text written above the copyright line are the fonts used by another neo-geo licensee, Video System, NOT Visco. (that's REALLY wierd!)
You can tell from the photo that it was taken at a show because you can see the reflections off the monitor glass of many industrial/warehouse building style lights high up in the ceiling. Also looks like the game is inside a typical Japanese style white metal candy type arcade cabinet.
(amazing how just one photo can give so much information huh?)
Anyhow, either way, we have absolutely no room left in the "1994/95 area" of the master list so this is a big monkey wrench to the work. But hey, how can we complain. Another neo-geo game title is always welcome, especially when it is not a fighting game!
Interestingly enough, being a Visco game could mean it would be "easy" for NCI to bring to us (assuming it exists of course) because of their obvious relationship with Visco and their unreleased neogeo products.
Fascinating...
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2000
- Posts
- 2,542
maybe if you take down Karate Ninja Sho from the list as it was in early development, possible it did not have a number assigned yet and place Puzzlekko Club on the spot 72, it makes sense as 71 is bang2 busters which is also a visco game.
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2005
- Posts
- 27,750
Cool. Thanks for the verification.
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2002
- Posts
- 9,353
You are welcome. 
Just to give you further bit of data, the interview is featured on NGF issue 10/1996.
I would like to point out another fact as well: the titles is nowhere to be seen after that. I mean: it never popped out in the game develop chart in the following months.
That may be a implicit confirmation that the game never got through its early development stage, despite the /b/w) screenshot published within the Yumekobo interview seemed quite detailed/polished, and the interview also states the game was already in playtest and o be released in the upcoming autumn...
According to what's written in the inteview, the game was featuring small playable character sprites in order to emphasize on the the feeling of 'tearing down big bosses using a much smaller hero'.
Title "KarateNinja Shou" (no, not 'show', for god's sake) is directly taken the name of the main protagonist. Japanese: 空手忍者 翔
There are four playable character in total, including cute female KarateNinja Ai [空手忍者 愛], tall male KarateNinja Gun [空手忍者 軍] and serious female KarateNinja Makoto [空手忍者 真琴]. All four are master of the secret "Hishouryuu Ninjutsu" fighting style. Also, please know each character bases it's own fighting style of some sacred beast guardian: Shou is the Dragon, Ai is the Tiger, Gun is the Phoenix, and Makoto is the Turtle. Yes, those four beast are obviously the four hell gate keeper from the Chinese legend (respectibly named Seiryuu, Byakko, Suzaku and Genbu), also featured in the Gekka no Kenshi series plus a shitload of Japanese popular narrative, including of course manga & anime.
Gameplay wise, the four charter represent a different balancing of power and speed. Shou is, of course, the most balanced of the four. Ai is the speed master. Gun in the most powerful, yet slower. Makoto is neither strong nor fast, yet focuses on powerful magic. Of course, there's a multiplayer co-operative gameplay, as you may expect from a side-scrolling fighting game. Also, characters sport 12 unique special attacks *each*.
While the moniker emphasize on the 'karate-ninja" concept, the setting is nothing like traditional Japan. It's like a futuristic techno-ninja scenario. The story involves the Earth being invaded by an alien race named 'Snaker', with the KarateNinja squad being the planet last and only hope. Each stage is supposed to take place in a difference country, thus of course affecting the backgrounds. BGs are also very interactive, as they are full of mechanisms or 'traps' which my be both harmful or useful to the player, thus being an active part of the gameplay.
Finally, the game has 10 different endings.
Just to give you further bit of data, the interview is featured on NGF issue 10/1996.
I would like to point out another fact as well: the titles is nowhere to be seen after that. I mean: it never popped out in the game develop chart in the following months.
That may be a implicit confirmation that the game never got through its early development stage, despite the /b/w) screenshot published within the Yumekobo interview seemed quite detailed/polished, and the interview also states the game was already in playtest and o be released in the upcoming autumn...
According to what's written in the inteview, the game was featuring small playable character sprites in order to emphasize on the the feeling of 'tearing down big bosses using a much smaller hero'.
Title "KarateNinja Shou" (no, not 'show', for god's sake) is directly taken the name of the main protagonist. Japanese: 空手忍者 翔
There are four playable character in total, including cute female KarateNinja Ai [空手忍者 愛], tall male KarateNinja Gun [空手忍者 軍] and serious female KarateNinja Makoto [空手忍者 真琴]. All four are master of the secret "Hishouryuu Ninjutsu" fighting style. Also, please know each character bases it's own fighting style of some sacred beast guardian: Shou is the Dragon, Ai is the Tiger, Gun is the Phoenix, and Makoto is the Turtle. Yes, those four beast are obviously the four hell gate keeper from the Chinese legend (respectibly named Seiryuu, Byakko, Suzaku and Genbu), also featured in the Gekka no Kenshi series plus a shitload of Japanese popular narrative, including of course manga & anime.
Gameplay wise, the four charter represent a different balancing of power and speed. Shou is, of course, the most balanced of the four. Ai is the speed master. Gun in the most powerful, yet slower. Makoto is neither strong nor fast, yet focuses on powerful magic. Of course, there's a multiplayer co-operative gameplay, as you may expect from a side-scrolling fighting game. Also, characters sport 12 unique special attacks *each*.
While the moniker emphasize on the 'karate-ninja" concept, the setting is nothing like traditional Japan. It's like a futuristic techno-ninja scenario. The story involves the Earth being invaded by an alien race named 'Snaker', with the KarateNinja squad being the planet last and only hope. Each stage is supposed to take place in a difference country, thus of course affecting the backgrounds. BGs are also very interactive, as they are full of mechanisms or 'traps' which my be both harmful or useful to the player, thus being an active part of the gameplay.
Finally, the game has 10 different endings.
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2000
- Posts
- 2,542
If it' 1996 karate ninja sho should be 99 and Puzzlekko Club 72.
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2002
- Posts
- 9,353
That's not so easy to guess, in any case.
NeoGeo protos to be logically included in the NGM/NGH list are:
1990 - Sun Shine / BLOCK PARADISE
1991 - DUNK STAR
1991 - FUN FUN BROS
1991 - MYSTIC WAND
[1992 - BUSTER BLAZE - Crossed Swords II - NGM-054]
1994 - Caribe no Zaihou
1994 - Puzzlekko Club
[1994 - ZUPAPA! - NGM-070]
[1994 - BANG^2 BUSTER - NGM-071]
1995 - ULTIMATE 4 / King of Athelete
1995 - Shinryuu Senki
1995 - ~PINBALL FANTASIA~ Last Odissey
1996 - KyokuChouGouken – THE EYE OF TYPHOON
1996 - Mahou Juku ~MAGIC MASTER~
1996 - Hebereke no Pair Pair Wars
[1996 - GHOSTLOP - NGM-228]
1997 - KarateNinja Shou
1997 - QP
2004 - Dance Rhythm Mix
2004 - SAMURAI SPIRITS ZERO SPECIAL KANZENSHIKI
These are the protos fairly confirmed by substantial evidence, official sources, screenshots and/or solid stuff.
I'm not even counting protos way more unconfirmed such as:
1995 - Maseki Taisen STONE
1996 - Kakutou Vollery (tentative)
1997 - Kijou ~ Nanairotoiki
Now, even not considering the last two (the latter of which may as well be a hack), those NGM should logically just follow-up the last official NGM of SSZsp, we still have 14 games/projects to fit in the NGM line.
Which are simply to much for the missing NGM in the line.
Now, what my point?
Well, take this for example:
1994 - Tenrin no Sho ~CHICAGO~ -> proto version of BREAKERS, finally published in 1997 with NGM-230.
Does this ring a bell?
A 1994 could never, never ever have been given the code '230' from the start.
Keep in mind that in 1994 Tenrin no Shou arrived to the point of having its (bilingual) flyer printed and distributed.
It was a complete game (quite different from Breakers though).
Those being *facts*, the only logical assumption is:
1) NGM-230 cannot be the code for Breakers 'original' version
2) Breakers was thus re-coded
3) SNK used to shuffle the projects code.
In fact, what is important to get is:
NGM, NGH and NGCD codes are NOT development codes. Those are publishing/distribution codes. Those are given to complete projects appraching their actual production, not to game in development.
That being said, it's quite natural to think any game never reaching it's FINAL production stage never had a code to begin with.
NeoGeo protos to be logically included in the NGM/NGH list are:
1990 - Sun Shine / BLOCK PARADISE
1991 - DUNK STAR
1991 - FUN FUN BROS
1991 - MYSTIC WAND
[1992 - BUSTER BLAZE - Crossed Swords II - NGM-054]
1994 - Caribe no Zaihou
1994 - Puzzlekko Club
[1994 - ZUPAPA! - NGM-070]
[1994 - BANG^2 BUSTER - NGM-071]
1995 - ULTIMATE 4 / King of Athelete
1995 - Shinryuu Senki
1995 - ~PINBALL FANTASIA~ Last Odissey
1996 - KyokuChouGouken – THE EYE OF TYPHOON
1996 - Mahou Juku ~MAGIC MASTER~
1996 - Hebereke no Pair Pair Wars
[1996 - GHOSTLOP - NGM-228]
1997 - KarateNinja Shou
1997 - QP
2004 - Dance Rhythm Mix
2004 - SAMURAI SPIRITS ZERO SPECIAL KANZENSHIKI
These are the protos fairly confirmed by substantial evidence, official sources, screenshots and/or solid stuff.
I'm not even counting protos way more unconfirmed such as:
1995 - Maseki Taisen STONE
1996 - Kakutou Vollery (tentative)
1997 - Kijou ~ Nanairotoiki
Now, even not considering the last two (the latter of which may as well be a hack), those NGM should logically just follow-up the last official NGM of SSZsp, we still have 14 games/projects to fit in the NGM line.
Which are simply to much for the missing NGM in the line.
Now, what my point?
Well, take this for example:
1994 - Tenrin no Sho ~CHICAGO~ -> proto version of BREAKERS, finally published in 1997 with NGM-230.
Does this ring a bell?
A 1994 could never, never ever have been given the code '230' from the start.
Keep in mind that in 1994 Tenrin no Shou arrived to the point of having its (bilingual) flyer printed and distributed.
It was a complete game (quite different from Breakers though).
Those being *facts*, the only logical assumption is:
1) NGM-230 cannot be the code for Breakers 'original' version
2) Breakers was thus re-coded
3) SNK used to shuffle the projects code.
In fact, what is important to get is:
NGM, NGH and NGCD codes are NOT development codes. Those are publishing/distribution codes. Those are given to complete projects appraching their actual production, not to game in development.
That being said, it's quite natural to think any game never reaching it's FINAL production stage never had a code to begin with.
Shito, that is the most interesting post I've read on here in years. I had never even considered your theory on CHICAGO / Breakers but it makes perfect sense.
Super Volley 94 / Power Spikes II comes to mind... it is a scary thing to think that NGH codes could be reassigned when lost titles were later resurrected. Why did they do this with Breakers and not Zupapa??
Super Volley 94 / Power Spikes II comes to mind... it is a scary thing to think that NGH codes could be reassigned when lost titles were later resurrected. Why did they do this with Breakers and not Zupapa??
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Posts
- 908
What's in a number?
NO.
I stated back in 2001, that Zupapa (NGM-070) was & is to be regarded as "the Rosetta Stone"
when it comes to unreleased NEOGEO prototypes & their corresponding product code numbers.
FACTS to support this:
To this day, we have discovered 5 of the lost protos and ALL 5 of them were discovered to
have the product codes within the PROPER area on the NGM Product Code List.
(Fun Brothers at 26, Zupapa at 70, Bang Busters at 71, Ghostlop at 228, Bang Bead at 259)
Pictures, Screenshots, Magazine Articles, Promotional Flyers & Literature, and even VIDEOS
mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The ONLY 100% acceptable PROOF of a product code for a game is an
ACTUAL 100% physicaly plugged in cartridge with visual confirmation via the DEBUG or UNIBIOS menu screen.
So, until a genuine documented unreleased proto is found with a "repeated", "non-sequential", or
"missing" product code number, we MUST adhere to this Zupapa standard.
YES.
You are correct that product codes are assigned at ONE point during the life of a game. The only question is
WHEN? Before, during, or after development and/or production? Nobody really knows? Yet.
You are also correct that there may end up being MANY more NEOGEO games at MANY stages of development that were canceled BEFORE they were assigned a product code number. And so it could mean that we are missing MANY more games then just the empty spaces remaining on the list. I have mentioned this many times before as well.
However, for me, personally, those titles do not interest me as much. My primary goal has always been to IDENTIFY the missing numbers, primarily by matching them with unreleased protos as they surface over the years.
(of course, SNK could answer this question in 10 seconds with a simple piece of paper from their records.)
But this has yet to happen. For some reason, this stupid meaningless information is guarded like nuclear missile launch codes. Absolutely RIDICULOUS. Especially when you consider that now the NEOGEO is retired anyway.
So of course, over the years we have been limited to using our best logical speculations to determine the most suitable locations for only the most promising titles. And as discoveries are made, changes are implemented. But regardless of that, mistakes will be made. (that is what happens with guessing)
In the case of "1994 chicago", which became "1995 crystal legacy", which became "1996 breakers", heh well yes this can present quite a confusion! But please remember that we also have evidence of the OPPOSITE.
1991 Dream Over was delayed and became 1992 Mutation Nation...but original NGM# was retained.
1992 Crossed Swords 2 delayed until 1995 (original NGM# retained)
Alpha Mission 2, Sengoku 2, Savage Reign, etc. all delayed an entire year as well.
We don't know yet what causes a product number to be assigned, when it is assigned, or if it can ever be changed and/or re-assigned. But, we do know that every single GENUINE game found so far, has a unique number, in the proper sequence, and NOT repeated. (yet!)
NO.
I stated back in 2001, that Zupapa (NGM-070) was & is to be regarded as "the Rosetta Stone"
when it comes to unreleased NEOGEO prototypes & their corresponding product code numbers.
FACTS to support this:
To this day, we have discovered 5 of the lost protos and ALL 5 of them were discovered to
have the product codes within the PROPER area on the NGM Product Code List.
(Fun Brothers at 26, Zupapa at 70, Bang Busters at 71, Ghostlop at 228, Bang Bead at 259)
Pictures, Screenshots, Magazine Articles, Promotional Flyers & Literature, and even VIDEOS
mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The ONLY 100% acceptable PROOF of a product code for a game is an
ACTUAL 100% physicaly plugged in cartridge with visual confirmation via the DEBUG or UNIBIOS menu screen.
So, until a genuine documented unreleased proto is found with a "repeated", "non-sequential", or
"missing" product code number, we MUST adhere to this Zupapa standard.
YES.
You are correct that product codes are assigned at ONE point during the life of a game. The only question is
WHEN? Before, during, or after development and/or production? Nobody really knows? Yet.
You are also correct that there may end up being MANY more NEOGEO games at MANY stages of development that were canceled BEFORE they were assigned a product code number. And so it could mean that we are missing MANY more games then just the empty spaces remaining on the list. I have mentioned this many times before as well.
However, for me, personally, those titles do not interest me as much. My primary goal has always been to IDENTIFY the missing numbers, primarily by matching them with unreleased protos as they surface over the years.
(of course, SNK could answer this question in 10 seconds with a simple piece of paper from their records.)
But this has yet to happen. For some reason, this stupid meaningless information is guarded like nuclear missile launch codes. Absolutely RIDICULOUS. Especially when you consider that now the NEOGEO is retired anyway.
So of course, over the years we have been limited to using our best logical speculations to determine the most suitable locations for only the most promising titles. And as discoveries are made, changes are implemented. But regardless of that, mistakes will be made. (that is what happens with guessing)
In the case of "1994 chicago", which became "1995 crystal legacy", which became "1996 breakers", heh well yes this can present quite a confusion! But please remember that we also have evidence of the OPPOSITE.
1991 Dream Over was delayed and became 1992 Mutation Nation...but original NGM# was retained.
1992 Crossed Swords 2 delayed until 1995 (original NGM# retained)
Alpha Mission 2, Sengoku 2, Savage Reign, etc. all delayed an entire year as well.
We don't know yet what causes a product number to be assigned, when it is assigned, or if it can ever be changed and/or re-assigned. But, we do know that every single GENUINE game found so far, has a unique number, in the proper sequence, and NOT repeated. (yet!)
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2002
- Posts
- 9,353
Billy, it's indeed true that we saw more than one former 'proto' eventually released still with its original product code. Just as you say, that's just a fact.
On the other hand, the CHICAGO/Breaker case is also a fact. Please let me know what you think about a 1994 finished project with a 230 code.
This is obviously the case of recoding.
I'm not saying recoding was the norm. I'm saying it happened once (fact), hence it *may* have happened other times as well.
You are right. Only real confirmations are from actual working protos.
Btw, is FunFunBro really *confirmed* as NGM-26? I missed that.
Finally, to answer Geddon's "Why did they do this with Breakers and not Zupapa??", I would just say let's not forget when 'SNK' is involved, a big crazy random variable quota is involved.
About codes being 'product codes' in the term of distribution, not development, of course you know the final extra zero SNK added in those in 1997 strating from RBS (2230) is for the NGCD alternate limited editions of games got a 1 in place of the 0. So you get two codes for one single project/game in different packaging.
You aso know along with NGM/NGH/NGCD Neo games were also coded with othre ALH, ADH, MOH, DEH etc according to their own distributor.
So yes, all in all those are product distribution code, most likely assigned to products just when they first fitted in any internal tentative release schedule, or approached it at least.
On the other hand, the CHICAGO/Breaker case is also a fact. Please let me know what you think about a 1994 finished project with a 230 code.
This is obviously the case of recoding.
I'm not saying recoding was the norm. I'm saying it happened once (fact), hence it *may* have happened other times as well.
You are right. Only real confirmations are from actual working protos.
Btw, is FunFunBro really *confirmed* as NGM-26? I missed that.
Finally, to answer Geddon's "Why did they do this with Breakers and not Zupapa??", I would just say let's not forget when 'SNK' is involved, a big crazy random variable quota is involved.
About codes being 'product codes' in the term of distribution, not development, of course you know the final extra zero SNK added in those in 1997 strating from RBS (2230) is for the NGCD alternate limited editions of games got a 1 in place of the 0. So you get two codes for one single project/game in different packaging.
You aso know along with NGM/NGH/NGCD Neo games were also coded with othre ALH, ADH, MOH, DEH etc according to their own distributor.
So yes, all in all those are product distribution code, most likely assigned to products just when they first fitted in any internal tentative release schedule, or approached it at least.
Last edited:
kuk
Benimaru's Hairdresser
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2005
- Posts
- 792
i don' know if the NGH are developpement ou commercial nomber, but i's ineresing to note than SS RPG are very low nomber, between Kof 95 and SS3
And SNK was annonced he was edited for 1995 and after he said 96 and finaly the game was edited in 1997
so we could said the NGH was gived during the developement
And SNK was annonced he was edited for 1995 and after he said 96 and finaly the game was edited in 1997
so we could said the NGH was gived during the developement
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2002
- Posts
- 9,353
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2011
- Posts
- 812
I've yet to see any of the found prototype PCBs - is this off limit to the community to?
With regards to the prototypes that Xacrow has got, don't you think he just has the game code rather than the physical protoype PCBs?
With regards to the prototypes that Xacrow has got, don't you think he just has the game code rather than the physical protoype PCBs?
Nightmare Tony
*Account control passed, on to Tony's family.Ex Ro
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
- Posts
- 1,029
As a small aside for whatever it be worth, the product code is also embedded into the code header within the game program. So I would bet that it was assigned at the start of design.
(favorite protos I had played with back then, Ghostlop and Neo Mr. Do!)
(favorite protos I had played with back then, Ghostlop and Neo Mr. Do!)
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2009
- Posts
- 3,073
Awesome discussion here! I love to see the debate points from both Billy and Shito. Who knows - maybe this is the first step towards us getting our hands on yet another proto. While I'm less of a crazed Neo fanatic now that I've played all the available titles (minus Fun Fun Bros and a few quiz and mahjong titles,) I would be VERY eager to play any new Neo titles, even if they were incomplete.
If that's so, one could relatively easily answer Billy's question regarding the NGH of Fun Fun Bros being verified