How much input lag makes a difference

Ok so i'm probably just looking for an excuse here but I was wondering what other people would call an unnacceptable amount of lag from a tv? I've been doing a bit of research about my TV (a samsung le32b54) and apparently it suffers about 30ms of lag. Now would anyone else think this makes a difference? I think i've got an old crt sitting about somewhere so i'm gonna try and put my supergun through that instead and compare.

Do you notice it while playing?

Well i'm not sure tbh. I've been playing a lot of windjammers and super dodgeball and i'm finding timing shots really difficult and so I was wondering if it was down to some lag.

I notice when it gets to about 4-5 frames. Don't trust any thing you read. Test it yourself.

for 1P games, timing is just something your reactions get used to. The lag shouldn't matter, your body will adjust to compensate. It will just affect you if you try to play the same game one one TV, then switch to another, your timing will be all off.

Lag hurts doing things on reaction. For example in fighiting games: teching a throw on reaction, DPing a jump in on reaction, etc.

It goes like this as a general rule of thumb as far as lag is conserned (no lag to lots of lag)


CRT > Plasma > TFT LCD > TFT LED

I was gaming (Tekken 6) on a LG 32LG5600 which had quite a bit of input lag. Advanced Juggle combos where a no go

Now on the Panasonic 46S20E things are much more lag-free. I also have a panasonic 32 inch CRT so I can compare my gameplay side by side to notice any lag difference. The panasonic plasma is quite lag free and has around 15ms input lag which is quite ok with me

I wouldn't sweat 30ms.

That 30ms only stands for native resolution, aka 720p/1080p. For resolutions below your native resolution, expect more. If game has vsync, add another frame of lag. Good rule of thumb is 16.6ms

Couple this with most lcds/plasma recognizing neo geo as 480i instead of 240p, you get an additional 2 frames of lag or more.

Investing in a scaler is really the best thing you can do if you play vintage games on new HDTVs. Not only will it reduce input lag to the lowest it can be on any given tv, It makes a big difference in picture quality. Especially noticeable on my Panasonic Plasma.

Makes me sad that most displays in native resolution aren't even one frame. Heck, my plasma is 1.5ish frames, which is considered fast by many but far from perfect. Add my scaler onto that, which is 6ms, and it is relatively lag free. The only monitors that are lag free are most CRTs (some lag because of comb filtering), and very few LCDS, mainly ones use in street fighter IV cabinets.

If only more people made a fuss about this, it wouldn't be an issue, but most people choose not to acknowledge it due to ignorance or skill.

A great site to read up on all this terminology and reviews of upscalers.

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

Good info here man ... i know that site

One question though : Which is the most lag-free of all those upscalers? Which one would you recommend? I also have a panasonic plasma tv set (46S20E)

I would say XRGB3 or DVDO Edge. DVDO edge has some ringing artifacts, but another cool feature is it can auto switch devices and act as a hdmi switch.

DVDO edge is also a very good deinterlacer, probably the best for under $1000. So it would make Standard definition DVDS look great and improve cable boxes.

XRGB on the other hand is much more suited for gaming. IT just sometimes doesn't like certain displays. It has a japanese SCART plug, so you will need to convert any european scart to japanese scart. The reason behind this is because the pins are different, and by plugging in a european scart into the japanese scart will short that plug

DVDO edge on the other hand takes SCART, but not in the SCART you're familiar with. You will need a SCART to 4x RCA plugs, more commonly called RGB+sync.

Also keep a look out for the frame mesiter XRGB. It is supposed to be coming out in a few months and should be priced lower than XRGB3/DVDO Edge. I will be picking it up if Fudoh gives it the thumbs up

I have the DVDO EDge. Both scalers are essentially line doubling, which is taking the original 240p image and multiplying it by 2 to 480p. So basically 6ms-8ms of lag. I know the DVDO edge can also upscale to 1080p, the XRGB3 is kinda finicky when doing so.

So all in all, your input lag should be less when connected to DVDO EDge/XRGB3 then hooking stuff up directly to the tv. The only exception is 480i games, like ps2, as the DVDO edge deinterlacer, while good, creates 3.5 frames of lag.

http://shoryuken.com/f177/new-definitive-hdtv-lag-faq-174085/

Great information there.

Frame Conversion:

1 frame is approximately 17 milliseconds.
Ideal (unnoticeable) delay for fighting or rhythm games is 8 milliseconds or less, or 1/2 of a frame.

Acceptable (playable) delay is 9 to 34 milliseconds, or 1/2 of a frame to 2 frames. Note that while gameplay will still be affected by a delay of 2 frames, most people will still have a difficult time noticing the difference immediately.

Unacceptable (unplayable) delay is over 34 milliseconds, or anything higher than 2 frames. Typically, this is a point when timing-sensitive gamers will even feel a delay at the menu screen or with the cursor when selecting a character.

Panasonics tend to be really great with minimal lag.

I've had hit or miss with Samsung and LG.

I had some input delay on the highest end 2010 Samsung Plasma (PN65C8000) but not on their top of the line 2010 LED (UN55C9000)

Despite making the Playstation, I've noticed TONS of delay on most Sony models. From the EX500, XBR9, HX909. All with unplayable delay.

Look through your settings. Turn off ANY post processing you might have. Digital Noise Reduction turn it off, set the video mode to standard, turn on game mode if you have it. All that adds to lag. Then run the rockband test.

Many thanks all, I actually own an upscaler, but haven't worked out how to set it up yet so i'll give that a go, see if it makes any difference. Didn't get round to tryin it on a crt yesterday as I'd had a few.... Gonna do that today.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=747832

According to this :

Conclusion:

While small, the built-in delay to my HDTV on non-HD material is unacceptable out of the box. The iScan VP20/VP30 + ABT102d is the best option hands-down for eliminating input delay, with the $200-$300 MSRP XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 at a close second. The $3000 MSRP iScan VP50 comes in at a distant third due to its current issues with progressive sources. Unless DVDO cleans up the code for handling Progressive sources, you're much better keeping your wallet fat and purchasing an iScan VP20/VP30 or XRGB-3 for your HDTV Gaming video processing needs.

But this info is from 2007 ... how does DVD0 Edge compare to DVDO VP20/30 in terms of input lag?

Mr aize, what upscaler do you have?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=747832

According to this :

Conclusion:

While small, the built-in delay to my HDTV on non-HD material is unacceptable out of the box. The iScan VP20/VP30 + ABT102d is the best option hands-down for eliminating input delay, with the $200-$300 MSRP XRGB-2+/XRGB-3 at a close second. The $3000 MSRP iScan VP50 comes in at a distant third due to its current issues with progressive sources. Unless DVDO cleans up the code for handling Progressive sources, you're much better keeping your wallet fat and purchasing an iScan VP20/VP30 or XRGB-3 for your HDTV Gaming video processing needs.

But this info is from 2007 ... how does DVD0 Edge compare to DVDO VP20/30 in terms of input lag?

Click to expand...

From my reading, VP20/30 causes 10ms of lag compared to 6-8ms of lag for DVDO Edge.

The guys test, Fubarduck used adaptive deinterlacing (thats the term if I remember correctly) for 480i inputs, which basically means no deinterlacing. It is basically just line doubling 480i to 480p and the results when something is not deinterlaced is shaking of the screen. This is especially noticeable on text.

So yeah, basically play 480i games on a crt if you care about input lag. As there is no getting around deinterlacing unless you force the games into 240p.

The real problem stems from manufacturers not caring about input lag, even on native resolution. Heck, look at the PS3 with SF4 input lag PS3 vs Xbox 360.

I guess all we can do for now is wait for technology to advance and video cards to become faster. If companies really wanted, we could get input lag down to sub one frame, even for vintage games (except 480i games). Its just we are a niche market.

Kinda sucks we can't have our cake and eat it too.


In any case I would ask Fudoh on that page. He would know the best answer as he has reviewed all these machines. He will probably ask what you want connected to it and the like, which will narrow down your choices.

yeah, it really sucks that input delay isn't a big deal to most tv makers.

The new toshiba's are supposed to be designed around input delay, and current toshiba's are actually advertising the game mode so they're probably pretty confident in their minimal input lag. I haven't personally tried them.

And here is how some games look through DVDO Edge

Blue's Journey




Streets of Rage 2



Super Metroid



Super Mario World

XxHennersXx said:

yeah, it really sucks that input delay isn't a big deal to most tv makers.

The new toshiba's are supposed to be designed around input delay, and current toshiba's are actually advertising the game mode so they're probably pretty confident in their minimal input lag. I haven't personally tried them.

Click to expand...

That is nice to hear. Another thing that irks me is the lack of proper 240p detection on component. Heck, some HDTVs don't recognize it on composite/s-video. My panasonic flickers on 240p component, which is a shame. Thankfully I have the scaler.

So which consoles output 480i? PS2?

To put it simple, you're telling me there is no way i can hook up a ps2 to my plasma in order to look good and have minimal input lag?

Well, 480i is determined by the game. Heck, there are a few 480i SNES games/N64/PS1 games as well. Most are 240p. Really depends on what the developer did.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/742/742965p1.html

You can always force them into 240p from 480i with varying degrees of success with Xploder HDTV. That right there eliminates the major cause of input lag.


But yeah, can't have your cake and eat it too.

In fighting games, anything no matter how minor makes a difference. If you are confirming three hits, and those hits are jabs and are prebuffering a qcf x 2 type motion to do a super. Ala gato in garou, and you got delay, it won't work as much. Input delay no matter how minor hurts your gameplay in ways to where you either adapt to it and compensate stuff you should be doing, or you drop stuff entirely to cope with it.

Bad all around. HD sucks, get a crt for fighters.

Theres delay even if you are using the same native res's from console and game. There is delay. Unless you got hospital level technology there is delay.

CRT is always the best thing. I play no fighters in any form of HD.

I just picked up an insignia 42" LED, I tried to play COD4 via HDMI and it is seriously unplayable. I'm guessing like 10 frames bad, it's hard to control and COD4 doesn't have any kind of lag compensation setting like some newer games might.

We have 30 days to return it and I will. What is a good brand that's around 42" and doesn't have input lag that bad?

Any of the Magical Drops is probably the best test.