Requesting pics of MVS converter issues

Kyuusaku

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Would you guys mind taking some pictures of graphics/scaling problems in different games on different converters? I don't have MVS copies of any offending games. It would really help reveal what the converters are doing wrong. Since the actual tile fetching hardware is in the console, it's hard to understand why newer games are reported incompatible on older converters and why on some consoles signal adjustment is necessary to get correct scaling.
 

1980te72

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i can. i have a phantom i'll snap some so pictures of kizuna and wakuwaku7 as i know that they will have a issue when zoomed out. i use to have one of the really early ones(well i still do, but i think the chip burned out), it had no issue with any game scaling wise but it couldnt do any of the bigger games real bout 2 and last blade 2 were the max it could do.


Edit: hmm they dont mess up on mine(lower number 17116) but on my friends really high number the blue phantom has a lot of messed up graphics when zoomed out. ill try and borrow his to take the pictures and his super converter 2 which is even worse
 
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1980te72

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I also have kof 2003 but have never had the reseting issue with my phantom.
 

Kyuusaku

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If it's true the early converter (you mean Pranslation?) doesn't have any scaling issues, that is *great* news. What about the Phantom?

If anyone is willing to sell a Pranslation cheap (broken is fine) I'd be happy to take it off your hands. It's that, or I cannibalize my SMVSCII or I directly wire like 100 signals between a MVS and AES board...
 

1980te72

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If it's true the early converter (you mean Pranslation?) doesn't have any scaling issues, that is *great* news. What about the Phantom?

If anyone is willing to sell a Pranslation cheap (broken is fine) I'd be happy to take it off your hands. It's that, or I cannibalize my SMVSCII or I directly wire like 100 signals between a MVS and AES board...


no the one i have i belive is the black phantom but im not sure. it looks more like a prototype to me.

this is what it looks like.

P1040005.jpg
 

Shou-sama

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I can take pics of the offenders on SMVSII after I move to my new place next month.

Some games don't even boot for me with UniBIOS 2.2 though:
Baseball Stars 2
Galaxy Fight
Last Resort
League Bowling
Sengoku 1
World Heroes 2 Jet
 

Kyuusaku

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Any pics would be great.

BTW, are there any graphical issues BESIDES scaling? (Apart from KOF menus)

AFAIK all PROG board issues (not booting, resetting) are related to protection or hardware checks by the game; not much a converter can do about those.
 

joe8

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BTW, are there any graphical issues BESIDES scaling? (Apart from KOF menus)
I have a Phantom and there are no graphical issues with any game. The only downside is it can't play the newer Playmore games.
Besides the scaling issues, the Super MVS 2 can have a minor problem with a few of the pixels on the screen being the wrong color. But that's not really worth mentioning. Some AES consoles can have problems with the Super MVS 2 and certain games like Metal Slug X or Metal Slug 4.
There was a thread on here a few months ago about the Pranslation (with photos of it). It's rare to find one, it plays games without graphical errors (I think), but like the Phantom it can't play the newer Neo games.

Since the actual tile fetching hardware is in the console, it's hard to understand why newer games are reported incompatible on older converters and why on some consoles signal adjustment is necessary to get correct scaling.
The Super MVS 2 never has correct scaling, even when the signal adjustment knob is set to right setting. In my opinion, I only find the scaling issues really annoying on the two Last Blade games. Here is a list of the more affected games:

Last Blade series
Samurai Shodown series
Art of Fighting series
Fatal Fury series (except Mark of the Wolves)
 
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Official Ninja

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Also Gowcaizer has lots of scaling. I don't find the Super MVS 2 converter scaling issue to be much of a problem. I couldn't be happier with mine.
 

Official Ninja

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Here are pictures from Gowcaizer. This should give you a good idea of the scaling "issue" with the Super Converter II.

No scaling:


A little scaling out:


More scaling out:


I want to add that not all scaling on the Neo is that great to begin with. When I play this cart in the MVS cab it looks better, but still a little sloppy. It is scaling lowrez images after all....
 
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pranslation and !arcade! converter uses original SNK ASICs taken from mvs carts to give the home system hardware the correct set of signals it is expecting. When SNK started to include encryption, these ASICs where drastically changed to support it thus these converters don´t play encrypted games.

Super neo converter 1 & 2 are FPGA implementations of SNK ASICs, the programmer was able to overcome the issue that keeping encrypted games from working but his implementation is not perfect hence the scaling issues and other small problems, a simple firmware upgrade of the FPGA could have all those small problems ironed out but the unit has no service connector for it.
 

Xian Xi

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In video form it looks like normal scaling to me.
 

Kyuusaku

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pranslation and !arcade! converter uses original SNK ASICs taken from mvs carts to give the home system hardware the correct set of signals it is expecting. When SNK started to include encryption, these ASICs where drastically changed to support it thus these converters don´t play encrypted games.
The ASICs were expanded for bankswitching and encryption but the tile serialization is exactly the same.

Super neo converter 1 & 2 are FPGA implementations of SNK ASICs, the programmer was able to overcome the issue that keeping encrypted games from working but his implementation is not perfect hence the scaling issues and other small problems, a simple firmware upgrade of the FPGA could have all those small problems ironed out but the unit has no service connector for it.
Does a SMVSC1 even exist? I don't think so. Anyways, they don't contain a FPGA, but a mask ASIC by NeoFlash (at least it's badged that way). In the prototype they used an Altera CPLD. The PROG board also has a PAL and buffers used to gate the data bus presumably to thwart copy protection, I haven't bothered to factor the logic. The CHA conversion logic does nothing but serialize the tiles, it's not necessary to do anything for encrypted games.

The actual necessary logic for a converter is pretty small, 15x 74 series chips, or a 32+ flip flop PLD with sufficient I/O.

BTW, I think any difference in compatibility between revisions (and possibly the scaling) would have to be because of changes in the fetch state machine. The serialization logic is kinda strange (it goes way back to early arcade games) so it's understandable they took a little liberty with the implementation and didn't carry out exhaustive tests.

It's hard to tell what the artifacts in the photos/video are from. It could be that bitplanes are fetched in a different order for scaled tiles or the converter can't flip the tile mid shifting bits out. I'm confident though that my logic will work exactly like the real thing, I just have to hack up a converter :\ If only the SMVSC2 did contain a FPGA I'd JTAG it immediately.
 
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Xian Xi

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Did some testing today. It seems almost like any game that did not have a home release or maybe has a slightly different P rom(s) will not play on the converter as is it has preset encryption or something.

Metal Slug X
Irritating Maze

These were on a +9v system with a hefty 36 watt PSU. So their claim of a stronger PSU to make the games work is total BS.

I'll test on a +5v system later today as well.

On a side note the scaling isn't that bad, of course this was testing with SS1, SS2 and SS3. When I test the +5v system I'll try AOF, FF, LB and also MSX to see if the rumor is true that it only works on a +5v system.
 
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Xian Xi

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Small update. Ironclad works but had a few minor glitches, don't know if it was my converter or something but the game worked.
 

joe8

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Super neo converter 1 & 2 are FPGA implementations of SNK ASICs, the programmer was able to overcome the issue that keeping encrypted games from working but his implementation is not perfect hence the scaling issues and other small problems, a simple firmware upgrade of the FPGA could have all those small problems ironed out but the unit has no service connector for it.
would it be possible to just unsolder/remove the FPGA chip, then update the chip and then resolder it onto the PCB?
 

Kyuusaku

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Sure, if it were a FPGA... You wouldn't even need to desolder it, just solder on a JTAG header. Who's going to match the VCC/GND/IO pinouts to all TQ100/144 FPGA/CPLD just to find it's a mask ASIC?
 

Xian Xi

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Testing is done. Tested on both 5v and 9v consoles and scaling was the same on both, tested on a 1st gen AES and last rev AES.

Made a video and put it on youtube. I'll upload it to my site as well since youtube compresses the videos.
 

Xian Xi

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Just a weird update.

Did a Phantom 1 test with Last Blade and had scaling problems on a +9v console but not on a +5v console. Also tested Sam Sho 1 MVS and had scaling problems on the +9v console and then checked with a Sam Sho 1 AES cart and had no scaling problems on the +9v AES.

On a side note, converting the +9v console to a +5v console reduced the scaling artifacts by about 70%, put the LM2576T back in and all the scaling artifacts were back.

I checked the 5v levels during that conversion and they were at 4.86v when running as both 9v and 5v units. So I thought maybe it's a voltage drop issue with the LM2576T since the output was only 4.86v so I lifted the feedback leg and added a 150ohm resistor tied to VCC and the output from the LM2576T was bumped up to 5.1v, even at 5.1v the scaling effects were the same as if it was still at 4.86v.

I just ran these tests to prove that it isn't a voltage issue with the P1 converter.

So in short:

Phantom 1 Scaling Problems:
+9v (Includes 10v,11v,12v): Yes
+5v: No

Super MVS C2 Scaling Problems:
+9v (Includes 10v,11v,12v): Yes
+5v: Yes
 

Kyuusaku

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Since the Phantom 1 uses SNK hardware I don't get how it could have the scaling problems :S
 

Neo Alec

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Did some testing today. It seems almost like any game that did not have a home release or maybe has a slightly different P rom(s) will not play on the converter as is it has preset encryption or something.

Metal Slug X
Irritating Maze

These were on a +9v system with a hefty 36 watt PSU. So their claim of a stronger PSU to make the games work is total BS.

I'll test on a +5v system later today as well.

On a side note the scaling isn't that bad, of course this was testing with SS1, SS2 and SS3. When I test the +5v system I'll try AOF, FF, LB and also MSX to see if the rumor is true that it only works on a +5v system.
I didn't know about this thread. On my system (which had all the issues) Metal Slug X wouldn't run, but Irritating Maze did.
 
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