Maradona vs. Pele - the eternal debate

metallizer

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If the 1986 argentina football team sucked, except for maradona, how did they won the cup? Maradona didn´t even scored at the final match.

Just to make an attempt to say maradona was the best required a downplay of the entire 1986 argentina football team.

fail.
 
evil wasabi

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metallizer said:
If the 1986 argentina football team sucked, except for maradona, how did they won the cup? Maradona didn´t even scored at the final match.

Just to make an attempt to say maradona was the best required a downplay of the entire 1986 argentina football team.

fail.
Click to expand...

So your impact from the article was that Maradona was the better player. Interesting. I thought the article was very balanced and didn't make any decisions on who was in fact better.
 
metallizer

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wasabi said:
So your impact from the article was that Maradona was the better player. Interesting. I thought the article was very balanced and didn't make any decisions on who was in fact better.
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he kills the article at the final paragraphs.

then he tells that video footage will help to choose, despite his previous argumentation that it´s unfair.
 
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evil wasabi

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metallizer said:
he kills the article at the final paragraphs.

then he tells that video footage will help to choose, despite his previous argumentation that it´s unfair.
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But he's right. Pele was probably the best player on his team, but the Brazilian NT was packed with talent that he could receive gifts easily.

What is funny is how Brazilians take it as an insult that their team, in a team sport, was so good that their "greatest" player was perhaps not as good as an Argentine.

If Pele had to play the game today through space and time, as a young man again, he'd be ranked lower than Ronaldinho (overweight Ronaldinho). If Ronaldinho played during Pele's time, and Pele was god, then god would be cut.
 
metallizer

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wasabi said:
If Pele had to play the game today through space and time, as a young man again, he'd be ranked lower than Ronaldinho (overweight Ronaldinho). If Ronaldinho played during Pele's time, and Pele was god, then god would be cut.
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only if he didn´t suffered an injury or a seizure during the said space and time championship.
 
Atro

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wasabi said:
If Pele had to play the game today through space and time, as a young man again, he'd be ranked lower than Ronaldinho (overweight Ronaldinho). If Ronaldinho played during Pele's time, and Pele was god, then god would be cut.
Click to expand...

That is also an eternal debate.

Football has evolute very much since the late 70's.

I guess the best team to follow to define "modern" football was late 80's AC Milan.

As an example of Pelé would do great, take Figo or Seedorf.
Both shined in their teams before moving to bigger clubs in 94.
Figo was a nightmare in a UEFA Cup match against Real Madrid and Barcelona hired him the next season.
In that same season, Seedorf won the Champions League with Ajax against AC Milan.

16 years later they still played great and adapted through different generations of football players and styles.
Figo is now professionally retired and Seedorf might be doing his last season ( at the calcio at least! ).

That said, could Pelé fit in nowadays football? perhaps not, but maybe he could have done extremely well in the 80's which wasn't too much far away from his retirement.

Players are humans. They evolute tactically so they adapt to different football eras, but they also age and become slower. That is the main problem.
Paolo Maldini started in AC Milan in 86 with only 16. He was already gifted.
His last season ( individual level ) was terrific for a almost 40 years old guy.
If Maldini could keep fresh, he'd still be a stronghold 10 years from now on.

And a last note, despite Pelé is considered to be the best player ever, it is namely due to his 3 World Cups victories and 4 different tournament appearances but, he never played in Europe. Brazil cooks the finest players ( overall, that is ) but their championship is slow as slugs and every striker has the chance of scoring tons of goals in there.

He's another legend that has never been around in europe when he should. That could have dictated him a different ending, but back then, his team beat Benfica ( Champions League holders ) in the intercontinental cup in Lisbon, and that was the best team in Europe back in the day.

Make your judgment.
 
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evil wasabi

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Atro said:
That is also an eternal debate.

Football has evolute very much since the late 70's.

I guess the best team to follow to define "modern" football was late 80's AC Milan.

As an example of Pelé would do great, take Figo or Seedorf.
Both shined in their teams before moving to bigger clubs in 94.
Figo was a nightmare in a UEFA Cup match against Real Madrid and Barcelona hired him the next season.
In that same season, Seedorf won the Champions League with Ajax against AC Milan.

16 years later they still played great and adapted through different generations of football players and styles.
Figo is now professionally retired and Seedorf might be doing his last season ( at the calcio at least! ).

That said, could Pelé fit in nowadays football? perhaps not, but maybe he could have done extremely well in the 80's which wasn't too much far away from his retirement.

Players are humans. They evolute tactically so they adapt to different football eras, but they also age and become slower. That is the main problem.
Paolo Maldini started in AC Milan in 86 with only 16. He was already gifted.
His last season ( individual level ) was terrific for a almost 40 years old guy.
If Maldini could keep fresh, he'd still be a stronghold 10 years from now on.

And a last note, despite Pelé is considered to be the best player ever, it is namely due to his 3 World Cups victories and 4 different tournament appearances but, he never played in Europe. Brazil cooks the finest players ( overall, that is ) but their championship is slow as slugs and every striker has the chance of scoring tons of goals in there.

He's another legend that has never been around in europe when he should. That could have dictated him a different ending, but back then, his team beat Benfica ( Champions League holders ) in the intercontinental cup in Lisbon, and that was the best team in Europe back in the day.

Make your judgment.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying if he evolved, but the thing that I want to stress is that the game was not as evolved in the 1960s as it is today. So many players are extremely talented, faster, stronger, more reflexive. Those goals that Pele made in the video footage looked like primary school playground goals against children.

The stories around Pele are immense. Things like his free kick shooting are legendary. But then you see footage and it's simply not impressive. We are blessed to be living in an age where the game is so much more strategic and the abilities of players are so polarized.

It's like Steven Spielberg. The guy hasn't made a great movie in almost 25 years. People still think he's the best filmmaker. All his recent movies are garbage.
 
Atro

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wasabi said:
I get what you're saying if he evolved, but the thing that I want to stress is that the game was not as evolved in the 1960s as it is today. So many players are extremely talented, faster, stronger, more reflexive. Those goals that Pele made in the video footage looked like primary school playground goals against children.

The stories around Pele are immense. Things like his free kick shooting are legendary. But then you see footage and it's simply not impressive. We are blessed to be living in an age where the game is so much more strategic and the abilities of players are so polarized.

It's like Steven Spielberg. The guy hasn't made a great movie in almost 25 years. People still think he's the best filmmaker. All his recent movies are garbage.
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Indeed!
But you can also not judge it by that footage.
Pelé scored over 1,000 goals, and he was indeed gifted.

As for the free kicks, it's exactly like you said - goalies were like not in the mood to stop them ^_^'.

And if this is to prove if Pelé or Maradona are the best ever, than this is totally wrong - Messi ownz Maradona any day of the week, still 21 and can already do wonders Diego didn't.
 
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Also, we cannot watch Pele shoot goals on your large screen HDTV. In my opinion and many others he will always be the "King."
 
evil wasabi

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duo_r said:
Also, we cannot watch Pele shoot goals on your large screen HDTV. In my opinion and many others he will always be the "King."
Click to expand...

My problem with this point is that it sounds like faith in God. I have seen how incredible Messi is with a ball, and what he does to fool opponents, and how his skills draw attention from other players making them even better. Same for Ronaldinho a few years ago. But from the footage of Pele's greatest moments, I don't see that at all.

The difference between God and Pele is that there's no proof to the contrary on how powerful and great and lovable God is. For Pele there is plenty of proof to the contrary.
 
BlackSpy

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Maradonna>Pele.

If the two of them were lining up to be picked that's how I'd choose. But my life of watchign football overlaps with Maradonna's career and not with Pele's so it's probably skewed by that.

Lots of other great players down the ages, all great in their times in their ways.
 
metallizer

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Brazil already at the World Cup.

Argentina won´t go to the world cup if they keep maradona as their coach.

Argentina vs Paraguay should not be missed, btw.
 
evil wasabi

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metallizer said:
Argentina won´t go to the world cup if they keep maradona as their coach.

Argentina vs Paraguay should not be missed, btw.
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Msaradona needs to just wake up and play his best players. Not the ones playing locally. He's not playing serious football.
 
bloodhokuto

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Playing conditions in the late fifties and sixties were terrible.

Furthermore, you ever seen a ball used during that era, Ronaldo would break his foot trying to kick it.

That fact that Pele could play magnificantly and had such ball skills despite that should be borne in mind.

Plus he didn't tend to handle the ball. ;)
 
Takumaji

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wasabi said:
The stories around Pele are immense. Things like his free kick shooting are legendary. But then you see footage and it's simply not impressive. We are blessed to be living in an age where the game is so much more strategic and the abilities of players are so polarized.

It's like Steven Spielberg. The guy hasn't made a great movie in almost 25 years. People still think he's the best filmmaker. All his recent movies are garbage.
Click to expand...

That's because people back in the day weren't as interested in technics as they are today. Just watch any late 60s or 70s WC match, looks like a slightly quicker game of chess in comparison to today's run-and-gun high speed footy but that doesn't mean the matches of yesterday weren't as exciting as the current ones.

Pelé and Maradona are legends because they did the right things at the right time and were gifted players who could foresee a situation and exploit it immediately with their high technical skills, that is which sat them apart from any other player of their time. In this light, they would be just as successful today as they were back then because even a technically inferior player with clever ideas and a big heart is 100x better than a technician without brains and soul.
 
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Takumaji said:
That's because people back in the day weren't as interested in technics as they are today. Just watch any late 60s or 70s WC match, looks like a slightly quicker game of chess in comparison to today's run-and-gun high speed footy but that doesn't mean the matches of yesterday weren't as exciting as the current ones.

Pelé and Maradona are legends because they did the right things at the right time and were gifted players who could foresee a situation and exploit it immediately with their high technical skills, that is which sat them apart from any other player of their time. In this light, they would be just as successful today as they were back then because even a technically inferior player with clever ideas and a big heart is 100x better than a technician without brains and soul.
Click to expand...

Well said Tak.
 
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Everything evolves. To compare the two or even paired them up against modern players is not right at less you factor in the evolution of football itself. Just think about it in other terms that might make more evident sense, like video games and comics for example, artists evolve, thus you could never say that Ross is better than Frazetta, or that Kirby is better than Perez, it just doesn't work that way. Same thing goes for developers like Toaplan and Cave and so on.

If you count this very important factor in then without a doubt Pele is the greater athlete, not only was he the best among an elithe team of Football Gods, he was also the most charismatic of them all.

Maradona is a formidbale player as well, a one man army, a gifted man indeed, but for all that might he leaves a lot to be deisred as a true athlete and a gentleman in and out of the field.

I remembered vividly his "hand of god" during the finals of Mexico '86. I watched as he bloated beynd proportion his efforts duirng Espain '82 and I watched his arrogant attitude when the hurse walk him away from the field being accused of drug abuse during USA '94. I also watch him rebell in jealousy about the America Cup 2000 'cause Argentina was absent and it was plced in COlombia nonetheless.

There's always the BS that people say that you will only remember a hero fall, well in my case that couldn't be farther from the truth, Pele has been in trouble a few times, but alas he's always been a gentleman. Do you want me to tell you hwat I remember about Pele? The biggest thing I remember that was kind of a scandal was when he married Xuxa 'cause apparentlty she was some sort of pornstar, well that isn't bad, if I had the money I would marry a pornstar as well, hell I only want the best tricks played out in bed, how can you blame the guy.
 
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