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TLH
12-11-2007, 10:19 PM
Hi,
After careful analysis of the insert of my MS1 AES game, I know that the box is not legit. In fact, it is a high quality lazer copy. Is there a way to tell if the cart is a boot as well without tearing it apart? I am reluctant to tear into the cart if there is another way to tell.

Thanks for any help,

TLH

terry.330
12-11-2007, 10:31 PM
No manual = BOOT

Tough luck dude.

TLH
12-11-2007, 11:41 PM
This game came to me in a collection of games. Out of 30 titles, this was the only one without instructions. After I discovered that the instructions were missing, I looked at the printing through a jeweler loop. Wow, the printing on this cart was clearly done with a lazer and not production SNK type printing equipment. I am now contemplating a lawsuit to force the individual to provide an original. Maybe that will dispel any future conduct.

BIG BEAR
12-12-2007, 12:07 AM
Can you provide a link to the auction?
BB

TLH
12-12-2007, 12:21 AM
I just found out today, that ebay has a division called trust and safety in Santa Clara CA that will spend the time to check out the boot and help go after the seller. I plan on traveling to Santa Clara and bring them the bootleg copy to show there investigators. I am going to offer to do this tomorrow when they open. Trust and safety division keeps regular hours. After I give ebay the chance to contact the seller, I will post to the neo community. Rest assured as a practicing lawyer, I plan on doing everything in my power, including prosecuting this seller, to protect legitimate collectors.

TLH

tony starks
12-12-2007, 08:09 AM
I just found out today, that ebay has a division called trust and safety in Santa Clara CA that will spend the time to check out the boot and help go after the seller. I plan on traveling to Santa Clara and bring them the bootleg copy to show there investigators. I am going to offer to do this tomorrow when they open. Trust and safety division keeps regular hours. After I give ebay the chance to contact the seller, I will post to the neo community. Rest assured as a practicing lawyer, I plan on doing everything in my power, including prosecuting this seller, to protect legitimate collectors.

TLH

This could get very intresting indeed. Keep us posted on any progress.

GohanX
12-12-2007, 11:18 AM
Can you post some pics of the insert and the cart label? There are a few things to look for on them that is the best way to identify a boot. I'm not expert in Metal Slug, but I'm sure someone else could take one look at the insert and tell you.

aria
12-12-2007, 05:01 PM
I agree, it smells as fishy as you say, but pictures would confirm the situation.

Pas
12-12-2007, 05:29 PM
Do you have a link to the auction page? Depending on how they worded the auction there might not be much you can do unfortunatly. It could be a conversion using original MVS chips but a sac AES cart which is at least slightly better than a total bootleg...yet still not good if they promised a 100% original legit cart to you.

TLH
12-14-2007, 01:18 AM
I am not sure what to do. I have contacted the seller, and I have arranged to take legal action through ebay and civil court. Now, the seller claims that he didn't know that the game wasn't original. The seller is trying to make me feel sorry for him. My wife does feel sorry for him. So, do you give this guy the benefit of the doubt? or do you demand recourse? The other thing that bothers me about this transaction, is the collection that I bought does include some good original games. But, the only reason I purchased this guys collection was to get my hands on what was purported to be an original MS1. The bottom line is that I paid big money for a collection that is worth considerably less without the original MS1 game included. What would you guys do?

BIG BEAR
12-14-2007, 02:19 AM
I just had a look at the auction and by the looks of it, you received a pretty good and or fair deal even with the converted MS1 imo. An original US MS1 would cost you between 2500 USD - 3000 USD alone.
His shipping and handling charges are also VERY reasonable. The auction definitely doesn't fit the profile of a seller trying to rip anyone off. It may have been a good idea to e-mail him first and confirm if the MS1 was legit and complete because In this age of converted carts,it is crucial that the manual be present with the original cartridge.
BB

TLH
12-14-2007, 09:53 AM
Prior to sale, I emailed the seller and asked him if he was sure that his collection was orginal. I also specifically asked him if his collection included any conversion carts. His reply was "I have had this collection for over 10 yrs and my collection contains only original AES carts I don't have any MVS conversions." I based my purchase on this information

Kpj
12-14-2007, 11:07 AM
Not trying to shit on your thread, but I was also inquiring about this bundle. I specifically asked to see pictures of certain games for this very same reason.

Keep in mind, not all people know when/if they have a conversion & the seller (in my opinion) did NOT advertise it as such. He was as informative as possible during our exchanges (to the best of his knowledge). I highly doubt he mislead you intentionally.

Have you asked him for a refund? If so, what was his response?

I hope you are able to work things out peacefully; we've all been there before.

Kpj

TLH
12-14-2007, 01:17 PM
I am trying to decide what to do, and was hoping that others who checked out the bundle would comment. I appreciate your candid approach. This is a tough one because it wasn't the add that mislead me, but the emails from the seller during negotiations. Also as I said before, there are some really good carts in this bundle like Mark of the Wolves. The only boot was the MS1. I am trying to work it out with the seller, but I still feel that he was dishonest during our negotiations. I think that he knew his MS1 cart was a bootleg, and included that in his bundle to entice collectors, then played dumb when called on it. That said, his entire bundle isn't worth what I gave him without all of the games being original. I would imagine what interested you in his bundle was the opportunity to get an original MS game as well. By the way, did he tell you that MS1 wasn't original during your negotiations with him. Thanks for your reply TLH

Kuriakos
12-14-2007, 01:48 PM
Do you really think this guy is a pirate? I highly doubt that a pirate would go to the trouble to buy 29 legit games and try to scam you with one. You are the sort of jerk who abuses the system. In short, hasseling this guy makes you an asshole.

P.S. Please don't sue me for slander.

TLH
12-14-2007, 02:16 PM
I have been trying to collect games for a number of years, it is not very often that you come across a guy selling his entire collection and purports to have an orginal copy of MS1. That said, I wouldn't even have looked at this bundle for the price he was asking if he hadn't listed MS1 as one of the games included. Most of the games, were the low dollar non collectors interest type, except for a couple. What I expect to get when I negotiate a buy it now for thousands of dollars are original games. After careful review of all of our communications, I believe that this seller lied. It is too convenient of an argument to say, oh I didn't know. I believe that the seller included MS1 in this bundle to entice collectors to look and submit bids. That's all there is too it! He could have said in his reply to my inquiries, that MS1 was not an orginal. But he didn't! He told me " my entire collection is orginal." In repsonse to your statement, yes I do believe that he would include a boot to generate interest and try and pass it off as original. Simply put, that is what happened. And by the way, if was going to sue you for your comments it wouldn't be for slander it would be for libel. Slander is spoken, libel is written! FYI I wasn't trying to take advantage of this guy, I just had an expectation of honesty. I enjoyed your post...

Kuriakos
12-14-2007, 02:22 PM
Did you simply ask for a refund? If so, did he refuse? I think you are overreacting big time.

P.S. This isn't broadcast or print

TLH
12-14-2007, 02:29 PM
I am trying to work it out and have emailed the seller several times with no response. In short, he is ignoring my attempts to resolve this. Part of me wants to just forget it, busy schedule and all. On the other hand, I am upset that the guy flat out lied. Forget about the legal stuff, and put yourself in my shoes for a minute. What would you do? Let this go, lick your wounds and go home. Or force the issue? I might be willing to drop this thing if the seller would respond, and tell me where he got the game. So far, he won't even do that!

TLH

Kuriakos
12-14-2007, 02:34 PM
The problem for me is the 29 legit carts and BB's assessment that you got a fair dealeven without MS1. I understand that if all you wanted out of the lot was MS1 how this would be irritating. If you do sue, what do you hope to gain? I bet he'd give a refund if simply threatened with legal action.

TLH
12-14-2007, 02:56 PM
I don't want to sue, unless I can't work it out through the proper ebay channels.
Right now, I am waiting on this sellers response. I want to know where he got the game, and what he paid for it ect.... As far a value for the collection, that is in the eye of the beholder. You need to take into consideration, that my deal with this seller was for an immediate transaction for over two thousand dollars. As collectors, we have placed values on these old games based on internet info,ect... And, truth to tell these are somewhat accurate depending on economics ect.. But what a cart/collection is really worth, is only what someone is willing to pay for it at the time. When you trust someone enough to immediately Pay Pal a large sum of money, you should expect to get the benefit of your bargain, not a bootleg copy. Thank for your replies... TLH

galfordo
12-14-2007, 03:23 PM
All these fucking crying smilies ... reminds me of the "It can't be done!!" thread.

Why don't you tell us a little more about the auction?

What did the guy tell you about MS1? How much did you pay for the bundle? What games were included in the bundle?

Seems like you're flying off the handle.

BIG BEAR
12-14-2007, 04:10 PM
I pulled this link from he other thread.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170172747158
There are a series of questions that must be asked to verify that the Metal Slug game is real. Just for the fact that the MS1 didn't include the manual should have steered you clear from the auction. As I stated before,even an authentic copy of MS1 without the manual is devalued considerably.
I don't know if you have the time but you could always resell the items you have no interest in.
BB



All these fucking crying smilies ... reminds me of the "It can't be done!!" thread.

Why don't you tell us a little more about the auction?

What did the guy tell you about MS1? How much did you pay for the bundle? What games were included in the bundle?

Seems like you're flying off the handle.

TLH
12-14-2007, 05:39 PM
The seller stated in his add that his games and system was mint to near mint. In my emails to the seller, I inquried about whether or not his collection was original. As stated before, the seller stated in his email "all of my games are originals." I based my purchase on this information and the photos he provided. FYI I did not post this thread to whine about this unfortunate transaction. I posted the thread to get input from other collectors. How many of us can afford to pay over $2500 for a guys used neo collection this time of year, and justify it to the wife? How many times have collectors been ripped off in a similar fashion? Its simply is too convenient an argument to pass a boot in an ebay transaction, and feign confusion (the proverbial some other dude sold it to me this way). I don't accept that excuse, but I wanted to get input from others before I spend a whole lot more money trying to resolve this. Also, I have not threatend this guy, as some have suggested. I have tried to get him to tell me where he got this game from. I think that may be where this ends up. Wouldn't it be nice to reduce the amount of fraud and passing of bootlegs? This really sucks, but I recognize it is a reality. So far this seller has ignored my emails to him asking for additional information.

ttooddddyy
12-15-2007, 05:46 AM
Split the cart - lets see whats inside.

bulletnyourass
12-15-2007, 06:44 AM
I pulled this link from he other thread.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170172747158
There are a series of questions that must be asked to verify that the Metal Slug game is real. Just for the fact that the MS1 didn't include the manual should have steered you clear from the auction. As I stated before,even an authentic copy of MS1 without the manual is devalued considerably.
I don't know if you have the time but you could always resell the items you have no interest in.
BB

BB,

I tried to check out the link but it's coming up page not found. Can either you or KPJ send me the link again via PM ..or at least the contents of the bundle and the price that it went for?


Phillip

chris1
12-15-2007, 06:51 AM
Yea the link isn't working for me either...If you go to Site Map from the page the link goes to and put in(in search)
170172747158


It'll come up..

Kpj
12-15-2007, 07:01 AM
Try this link Philip:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170172747158


BB,

I tried to check out the link but it's coming up page not found. Can either you or KPJ send me the link again via PM ..or at least the contents of the bundle and the price that it went for?


Phillip

bulletnyourass
12-15-2007, 07:19 AM
Never mind. I can see the link. Price seems fair. I cant comment on whether this was intentional deception or if he genuinely didn't know that it was a conversion.

If you have been collecting games for some time then you are aware that between Garou, MS5, MS4, World Heroes Perfect, SS5 and the REI Console alone there was no way that the MS1 could have been real. MS1 goes for about $3000 by itself. I think that sometimes people want something so bad that they are willing to take unnecessary risks. Did you ask for separate pictures of the MS1? If so, you would have been able to find out beforehand.

As far as a lawsuit, it seems pointless. You wont get anything but the aggravation of knowing that you filed a law suit and gained nothing for your efforts. Take this situation as a learning experience and realize that when it comes to the Neo Geo, you wont get any stellar deals. People selling this stuff all think their crap is R@R3!! and worth a lot of money. Ask for numerous pics of all high dollar carts and never be afraid to ask us for help. There are a lot of us here that either have owned or still own complete collections that can help you out.

Phillip

Stellaking
12-15-2007, 07:31 AM
Split the cart - lets see whats inside.

Do it...
http://www.tiptonium.com/neogeo/projects_howtoopenaescart.htm

May aswell now and lets see some pics
but you have him bang to rights if you
still have those comms between you.

What do the bios throw up on that MS1 ?
He can swap out a bios to 2.0 but not tell a conversion or boot :annoyed:

He has a 7 day return for items and its been near 3 weeks now ?
Is there a chance you can do an exchange / refund.

You don't seem too happy with the deal...
From what time I spent checking his ebay for your stuff I got $1,300
minus 20 odd carts.

Welcome to the site BTW... Keep it in your favourites

EDIT: QFT Phillip.

TLH
12-15-2007, 08:44 PM
After reading all of the stellar posts, I have decided to follow the consensus and DO NOTHING!!!! I have gotten so much grief over this from my wife, I may just sell my entire collection! Yeah, I was hoping that the MS1 cart was an orginal, and I respectfully disagree with everyones comments about what certain carts are worth. These old video games are worth what someone will pay for them, and no more or less. I have seen neo geo collector carts in bargain bins, yard sales and I used to collect them from swap meets as well. I have seen people pay astronomical prices for some, and I have seen the opposite as well. The reason behind an ebay transaction is to get the best deal you can. That is what I was hoping to do. As it stands, I figure that I got enough stuff from this deal that I can re-sell for close to what I paid. If MS1 is worth $3000, why hasn't some collector snapped up the one that has been on ebay from a trustworthy dealer for some time? I would speculate that no one is willing to spend that much this time of year. Sometimes you can get lucky and get a really good cart in a bundle. Sometimes, like this time, you don't get what you thought you were bargaining for. In every case, you don't get ahead unless your willing to take the risk. It is my feeling that the seller either knew or didn't care about misleading me. By not taking action against sellers who pass boots, how do we as collectors prevent this kind of thing happening in the future. Thanks so much again for all of your thoughtful comments. TLH -

bulletnyourass
12-15-2007, 09:40 PM
If MS1 is worth $3000, why hasn't some collector snapped up the one that has been on ebay from a trustworthy dealer for some time? . TLH -

I can easily answer that question for you.

1) Most collectors (including myself) want to purchase a 100% MINT copy. Once you are going to drop a few thousand dollars you want to go ahead and get a near flawless one similar to the ones forum member Kiselgof or TonK have owned in the past. I'm not saying that Kenny's copy is bad but for a little more money a person would rather have a Mint- or better (if possible). I am referring to the slight wrinkling and water marks on the insert. I do commend him on mentioning it because you cant see any problem in the picture. He could have easily not mentioned it.

2) There are some people on these forums who don't like Kenny for whatever reasons so they wouldn't purchase it just because of their personal dislike for him.

3) Your speculation is correct. With the current holiday season at hand, people are spending so much money for their holiday travels and gift purchases that this is a bad time for anyone selling high priced carts. However, we are approaching income tax season within the next couple of months so Kenny may move this and a few other of his items once people start receiving their refund checks.

4) Metal Slug is one of the most bootlegged home carts there is. There are a lot of people out there who know how to make some damn near identical fakes. You have to remember that not every Neo owner is a member of this site and ( most importantly) not every member of this site owns a neo geo home console. A lot of people are hesitant about making high dollar transactions over the internet because of all the horror stories of people who have ended up with fakes. Not everyone knows to come to this website and ask for help beforehand.

5) Patience is a virtue in this hobby. With the amount of people that use Ebay the odds are that you are going to have a decent amount of unsavory members. Everyone thinks Ebay is the Bible of price guides for all items. So you have to be prepared that there are people looking for an opportunity to take advantage of you. People want deals but don't want to give deals. Collecting home carts isn't like collecting Pokemon. You don't have to catch them all right away. Here's an example:

I need 3 home carts to complete my US collection. One of those is Euro Double Dragon. For about 2-3 years I have been looking for one. They normally go for about $1000 (give or take a few dollars depending on condition). There was one in the Neo Store not too long ago and it was around $1100. I almost caved in but when I was going to ask Shawn more info about it, the game had been sold. About 2 weeks ago I found a copy for $788 Shipped that was in similar condition to the Neo Store copy.

Had I came across this deal after I bought the cart from the Neo Store, I would have been pissed off at myself. As for Kenny's MS1. That would be an acceptable copy for me ...but maybe not for someone else's collection. I'm not saying you shouldn't look for deals .... I'm just saying that in todays society, people selling Neo stuff know what it's worth and if they wanted to scam you, they know just how to do it ... especially with the ones who know how to make near identical replications.

Phillip

werejag
12-15-2007, 09:44 PM
Just send me all your carts i want anything i can get ahold of

TLH
12-15-2007, 11:02 PM
Yeah, I have though about buying Kennys' MS cart. I would probably be happy with it for the right price. The thing is, I may be better off waiting until after the first of the year as well. Things have been very slow at the office. I have some carts that I am going to be offering up soon. All orginals with instructions, nice clean boxes, but maybe not the quality you would be after. Most of my carts are between really good and mint all originals with manuals. I have about 100 or so now, most of the cheap ones covered. Just recently, I bought MS3,MS4 US and SVC Chaos from neo store, and I have more than one copy of MS4, Samurai 3 and some other misc.. duplicates. I am going to offer up on ebay, a really nice set of Jap Sam. Spirit 1-5. I don't have a duplicate of Zero though. Anyway, collecting is a fun past time. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. By the way and I may do this in another post, but do you know what MS1 CD is worth unopened in the original SNK wrapper? I have about 25 or so CD's unopened that I might trade for carts. TLH

Stellaking
12-16-2007, 05:00 AM
This is one I was looking at... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180191296808&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D 180191296808%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1

But... http://www.neo-geo.com/guides/cd/cdguide.html

TLH
12-16-2007, 02:47 PM
Again, it might be the time of year. It would seem that Metal Slug CD's would be considered appreciating though. 100 to 150 ? Is that for an unopen version? Or would that price be based on an open still mint version. It would seem to me that unopened CD's would be more valuable as collectors items. I know that I never plan on opening the ones that I have. Although, I must say that I have been tempted to open them on more than one occasion. TLH

Stellaking
12-16-2007, 03:25 PM
Yeah I'm kicking myself I didn't pick that up :crying:

TLH
12-16-2007, 06:52 PM
BTW, I just got in another cart from the neo store. I am wondering how the neo store gets these like new carts. These carts are just stellar, mint (new except they are not wrapped) and a good buy in this condition. I wonder how much longer they can get SVC Chaos's, Samurai Specials and the like. It would seem these should be drying up soon. The neo store rocks....

Neo Alec
12-17-2007, 12:31 AM
You were just being naive if you thought that Metal Slug in that lot was an original at the price you got. There had to be a voice in the back of your head the whole time telling you there's no way. You know what your mistake was, and you're learning a hard lesson from this. I think you should be glad you didn't get completely ripped off.


What do the bios throw up on that MS1 ?
The Unibios check isn't going to be able to tell if you have a conversion. The roms are the same.

Everyone trying to buy an original AES Metal Slug... get an MVS. You will be very happy with it. If you need the nice presentation of the AES, get a conversion with a reprint manual -- the chips are still legit.

Stellaking
12-17-2007, 06:42 AM
Yeah, a test on a boot may come up as NG right ?

Like Alec says you can get conversions with erm...
An improved looking insert and a manual.

I have seen a few posted in the marketplace here, one
not so long back.

Dunno about Shawn, I know he can build houses with home carts.
Plane ticket to the neo store...

"Excuse me sir, have you ever heard of the neo geo ?
Could we take a few moments of your time and speak to you
about the love of neo ?" Have a quick look round lolz.

Agreed, I'm definitely giving the store more pennies next year.

Lovergoat
12-17-2007, 02:02 PM
this situation is a total stalemate and IMO totally fair after everything is settled. If you had got that nice little bundle for that price and the MS1 was original you would have totally fleeced the guy.

However I also feel the seller was trying to pull a fast one. Didn't he say he has had all these carts for ten years? To my knowledge an MS1 conversion hasn't been possible for that long. Somebody please correct me if I'm talking arse though.

Superfamifreak
12-17-2007, 02:31 PM
To my knowledge an MS1 conversion hasn't been possible for that long. Somebody please correct me if I'm talking arse though.

Technically, it's been possible since 1996 but I doubt there were many people who at that time would have had the knowledge to do a conversion.

Also, with the home cart selling new for around 300 at the time, who would have paid the 800+ for an MVS kit and 100+ for the Fatal Fury 3/Samurai Shodown 3 to sac for it. It just wouldn't have made sense.

Lovergoat
12-17-2007, 03:10 PM
Technically, it's been possible since 1996 but I doubt there were many people who at that time would have had the knowledge to do a conversion.

Also, with the home cart selling new for around 300 at the time, who would have paid the 800+ for an MVS kit and 100+ for the Fatal Fury 3/Samurai Shodown 3 to sac for it. It just wouldn't have made sense.

There you go, confirmed scammer if he claimed they where ten years old.

Cheers Andy.

Neo Alec
12-18-2007, 01:10 AM
The seller's comments following the auction regarding the cart may have been less than honest, but for the price, a non-conversion wouldn't have made sense. Of course the scammer is always in the wrong, but if you're going to use ebay you have to be at least wary enough to realize when a deal is just way too good to be true and approach it with caution. You can't shop online without a healthy sense of skepticism.

TLH
12-18-2007, 10:11 PM
after communication with the seller, who told me "all carts were original" I decided to proceed. I recognize Bears point that for the price I got some really nice carts, but I was hoping that the seller was including an original MS1. I have every slug except 1, and have been waiting for a bundle that might include it. You and the rest of the forum are correct that I was way to naive in my approach.

Thanks for the reply, TLH