Best possible video quality out of the Sega Saturn for a HDTV?

Well I was playing my Saturn today and noticed how god awful the video quality looks next to newer game systems. I have all my new systems hooked up via component and the Saturn via S-video.

I know that a lot of people do not like the filtering that emulators offer and such, but I am not one of those people. Is thier a way that I can upscale the Saturn video over to 720p or 1080i (even 480p for crying out-loud) and use some kind graphics filter?

I do not care if I have to use to or three methods for the results such as an RGB mod that goes into a device that converts RGB to Component as well as upscaling to 480p or above.

Any ideas of what method I can use to get te best image quality over component on my saturn?

I really wouldn't mess with actually trying to upscale the picture.

You could run the RGB from the Saturn into something like the XRGB2 type device if your TV supports VGA input.


Personally, I would just build an external box that has a NeoBitz or newer JROK in it and then you can encode the RGB signal into Component to run to your TV. Then your could swap that box with other, older consoles and they could all benefit from the component video lovin'.

Like Todd says, you can make a universal converter to encode all RGB signals. Below is my actual unit. It's also used as a SuperGun & Digital Sound encoder.

If I m not mistaken is that a tosslink connection I see? How did you make that?

broken said:

I really wouldn't mess with actually trying to upscale the picture.

You could run the RGB from the Saturn into something like the XRGB2 type device if your TV supports VGA input.


Personally, I would just build an external box that has a NeoBitz or newer JROK in it and then you can encode the RGB signal into Component to run to your TV. Then your could swap that box with other, older consoles and they could all benefit from the component video lovin'.

Click to expand...

How much of an improvement should I see on a Saturn if I am currently using S-video with this method?

Do I have to tap into the Saturns RGB signal or is there just a scart cable that can be plugged into a NTSC Saturn?

my saturn looks pretty good on my sony LCD via s-video, just as good as my DC does, however even the few DC and saturn games that support a widescreen mode don't fill the whole screen, it looks better but there are small black bars on the sides.

s-vid is as good as you'll get, unless your hdtv supports rgb, and i'm sure your tv's upscaler is better than one youd buy for anything external.

my saturn my neogeo looks good on my samsung LCD via s-video full screen

Low res system on high res tv=crap picture.

I hook my low res systems to a commodore monitor (low res) and my high res systems to a vga monitor (high res).

Only thing that sucks is that you've got lots of monitors kickin around, I've yet to find one unified solution that EVERYTHING looks good on.

X said:

Hey KPJ does that little converter also do analog sound to digital fiber optic? If I m not mistaken is that a tosslink connection I see? How did you make that?

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Yes, that is a toslink connector (optical digital sound). Above it is Coaxial digital sound. The front silver sound inputs (along with the JAMMA input/8-Pin DIN connector) feed into the Analog to Digital converter. They output a clear/powerful signal via the digital connectors.

X said:

How much of an improvement should I see on a Saturn if I am currently using S-video with this method?

Do I have to tap into the Saturns RGB signal or is there just a scart cable that can be plugged into a NTSC Saturn?

Click to expand...

If you were to buy a Saturn RGB cable (that is if the Saturn's multi-AV connector outputs true RGB), you could easily wire this cable to a universal encoder (as mine) & get a beautiful component picture on your set.

daybona said:

Low res system on high res tv=crap picture.

Click to expand...

I've heard many people say this, but my Neo/Genesis/SNES look stunning on my 50" HDTV Plasma. I can't complain....

Kpj said:

Yes, that is a toslink connector (optical digital sound). Above it is Coaxial digital sound. The front silver sound inputs (along with the JAMMA input/8-Pin DIN connector) feed into the Analog to Digital converter. They output a clear/powerful signal via the digital connectors.



If you were to buy a Saturn RGB cable (that is if the Saturn's multi-AV connector outputs true RGB), you could easily wire this cable to a universal encoder (as mine) & get a beautiful component picture on your set.



I've heard many people say this, but my Neo/Genesis/SNES look stunning on my 50" HDTV Plasma. I can't complain....

Click to expand...

I know it may be asking for to much but if you have time could you take a pic comparing a 2d Saturn game (lets say Guardian Heros if you have it) with S-vid and component using your method?

What I am trying to get at is if it will make a differnce like ACEM77's mod here for NES.

Linkt to Mod

I know that going from composite to RGB is huge and I wont get such a leap from S-video to component but will I at least see more defined sprites and better colors ?

X said:

I know it may be asking for to much but if you have time could you take a pic comparing a 2d Saturn game (lets say Guardian Heros if you have it) with S-vid and component using your method?

What I am trying to get at is if it will make a differnce like ACEM77's mod here for NES.

Linkt to Mod

I know that going from composite to RGB is huge and I wont get such a leap from S-video to component but will I at least see more defined sprites and better colors ?

Click to expand...

You're not asking too much The only problem is that I don't have a RGB cable for the Saturn (which is why I said "if the saturn outputs true RGB thru it's connector") I don't have my saturn hooked up this way (yet), nor have I ever fiddled with a Saturn besides installing the language/region mods.

I'll have a look at it's pinout & get back to you. I'm sure it'll be a nice difference.

Kpj

lol teh legend

daybona said:

Only thing that sucks is that you've got lots of monitors kickin around, I've yet to find one unified solution that EVERYTHING looks good on.

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CRT-based HDTV. Think along the lines of a 15/31 capable arcade monitor.

To the OP: Since we're talking about video games, there's only so much you can do to increase the video quality. If it were a non-interactive medium like a LD player, I'd say use an intelligent scaler like a computer + Dscaler, but the lag would ruin games.

The AV output of the saturn includes rgb. Search the European ebays or something for a scart lead or import a jap 21pin rgb cable. Might want to try and google for a better source though.

My two cents...

Right now, there's just not a good, cheap way to get a Saturn/SNES/Genesis/TurboDuo looking nice on HDTV.

Some video conversion is going to occur on NTSC signals (like the one out of the Saturn) going to HDTV. There may be a CRT HDTV out there that scans to 480i (haven't seen a true one, yet). But me, I'd rather not spend my money on a really obscure feature, or a CRT HDTV, for that matter. Especially since it sounds like you already have an HDTV.

The problem is, the Saturn, like other systems of the time, only outputs an interlaced signal, even in RGB. The video output of a JAMMA system is much more akin to that of a PC video card, and runs in different resolutions, with non-interlaced sync. This means that any converters built for arcade RGB conversion, like the new JROK, probably won't work. If they do, all the outputs, even component, will still be 480i.

So you still run into the same problem as with S-Video right out of the Saturn. The output resolution is still 480i, and the HDTV usually runs 1080i, 720p, and sometimes 480p.

Now, somewhere in there, right out of the graphics processor, the Saturn is running in PC resolutions, like 320x240, non-interlaced. That signal wouldn't do you much good, though, because game systems change actual resolutions a lot. You can run any emulator without stretching turned on to see that. But it might get you closer to progressive scan on some games, with a converter...

...I'll file that under "not worth the trouble".


Once Saturn emulation has matured (it's almost there, so I hear), you could fiddle with emulator scaling, and output in a HDTV resolution from your PC. That'd be nice.

But as far as expensive converters go... I'm finding out that any really good converter box is going to induce lag in the video signal, and that pretty much rules out using them for videogames, like TerryMatthews says.

Anyways, this is the major problem with HDTV, for us gamers. We kind of got stiffed on backwards compatibility. But that's how it is with progress, unfortunately.

You could always just buy a separate TV.

- Ven

Ven said:

Some video conversion is going to occur on NTSC signals (like the one out of the Saturn) going to HDTV. There may be a CRT HDTV out there that scans to 480i (haven't seen a true one, yet). But me, I'd rather not spend my money on a really obscure feature, or a CRT HDTV, for that matter. Especially since it sounds like you already have an HDTV.

Click to expand...

I can't say I've played with HDTVs much, but that'd be weird if CRT-based HDTVs didn't support scanning at 480i... It's like they went out of their way to disable a feature.

It's weird, how a nice and well-tweaked SDTV is far more capable than an HDTV. Sure, I don't get quite the same crispness on my KV36FV16 Sony Wega that some bloke gets on a Plasma, but my TV doesn't look like ass playing Neo or Saturn either.

Yeah, right on. You're lucky to have the WEGA. It took me 2 years to figure out that Sony had many LEVELS of WEGA, and that the cheapest had awful geometry. So I settled for a Toshiba 27 inch regular tube, and I love it. I've seen uglier HDTVs, by far.

As far as CRT HDTVs go, I was in the market for one about 2 months back, and spent a whole lot of time researching and going to stores. Eventually, I just gave up, because nothing good was within my price range.

I was just as surprised to find out none of the consumer models scan 480i, at first. But as I looked into it, I figured out why they don't bother.

For starters, to appease the FCC and the consumer, all the new HDTVs only really need two modes, EDTV (480p) and HDTV (1080i, nowadays). Some have 540p, which is just progressive on a 1080i tube, and some of the plasmas and LCDs like 720p, due to them being non-interlaced by nature. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir here, we've all been to the stores.

So it's a lot cheaper to just have two modes and convert everything else. Probably a lot cheaper.

And then, if you read the PR at the stores and such, "upconverting old television signals" is a super-dee-duper feature, not a defect. They seem to have no problem convincing the average consumer that "Digital Reality Creation II" or "super sharpening engines" or whatever are the most awesome thing to have in your TV, ESPECIALLY if you're watching "the big game!"

Note sarcasm. :P

It's a win/win situation for the manufacturer.

But I went looking to find the "scans everything" monitor, because, like you say, it has to exist SOMEWHERE.

And I found it exactly where I expected to find it. I dabble in video editing and production, poorly, and I remembered seeing a monitor from this series in a studio.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=0&p=8&sp=20073&id=57474

It's a "whopping" 32 inches, and it scans from 480i to 1080i, with everything in between.

For around $40,000, it had better cook my friggin' breakfast too.

- Ven

X said:

Do I have to tap into the Saturns RGB signal or is there just a scart cable that can be plugged into a NTSC Saturn?

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The saturn outputs RGB straight out of the box.You just need to use the correct scart cable.

http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/sea.../&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=saturn+rgb&category0=


If you do get one,just make sure that it is an rgb lead by taking to cover off the scart end and seeing how it is wired.Some people automatically assume that a scart cable is rgb when sometimes they can just be wired for composite AV.

If theres only about 5 wires upto the scart block its comp AV,if theres 8 or 9 connected (especially pins 7,11,15 as they carry the red,green,blue).

But then what happens,you plug it into a box that you then plug back into your tv set still using an s-vhs connector.I can't see how that is going to make the picture better as all it does is downgrade the rgb signal down to s-vhs.Unless of course the little box is component compatible and you are going to use an HD connection then you will get the benefit you were after.

Thank you all for the information and opinions. I think the problem is that all my systems are running in component (so I am use to a level of clarity) and the Saturn has very poor S-video output.

I already have a CRT HDTV,it is a Sony KV-34HS420 which I have had for awile already and dont plan to replace it until SED a few models of SED sets have been released (or a better tech).

I guess I will buy a scart cable of ebay and get a RGB to YUV converter to see how that works out. It kind of sucks having to go from component to s-video on my TV when ever I want to play (I have 5 remotes and I am always missing the TV one for some reason).

Has anyone ever used a capture card and Dcaler for this purpose?

X said:

Has anyone ever used a capture card and Dcaler for this purpose?

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Yes. Don't waste your money, or time. An uber-fast computer, 3GHz+, only running Dscaler with the lightest filters available, is still going to introduce roughly 0.5sec of lag.

TerryMathews said:

Yes. Don't waste your money, or time. An uber-fast computer, 3GHz+, only running Dscaler with the lightest filters available, is still going to introduce roughly 0.5sec of lag.

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Under what circumstances? I play my consoles through my Hauppague's S-Video jack and I never notice any lag at all. I use greedy high motion and the only filter is the Gamma filter. It's on a 2.2ghz Sempron with 512MB of RAM. When this card was in a 600mhz Celeron with 128MB of RAM there wasn't any lag either with DScaler with the same settings.

Ven said:

There may be a CRT HDTV out there that scans to 480i (haven't seen a true one, yet).

Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on what you mean by a "true one"? I have a 40 Wega XBR, and when I run my game systems (including the oder ones) there's a considerable improvement when running in the "Progressive" advanced video mode vs. the interlaced mode.

I use my Saturn with S-video on this TV, and I've always thought the picture was outstanding.

DanAdamKOF said:

Under what circumstances? I play my consoles through my Hauppague's S-Video jack and I never notice any lag at all. I use greedy high motion and the only filter is the Gamma filter. It's on a 2.2ghz Sempron with 512MB of RAM. When this card was in a 600mhz Celeron with 128MB of RAM there wasn't any lag either with DScaler with the same settings.

Click to expand...

You might not notice the lag, but I can assure you its there; it's the way Dscaler works. It has to have 2 fields before it can begin to process a frame, so right off the bat you're looking at 1/43 lag, before processing.

For certain types of interlacing, it may need 4 fields; I know certain animes use that drawing method, but I don't know what the Saturn (or any other game system) uses.

RiotoftheBlood said:

Can you elaborate on what you mean by a "true one"? I have a 40 Wega XBR, and when I run my game systems (including the oder ones) there's a considerable improvement when running in the "Progressive" advanced video mode vs. the interlaced mode.

I use my Saturn with S-video on this TV, and I've always thought the picture was outstanding.

Click to expand...

A "true one" would be an HDTV that acutally stats scanning the CRT at 43 hertz once you connect a SDTV video source.

I wouldn't bother buying an RGB cable or a device that converts RGB to HD modes for the saturn. I have no picture proof but me and my mate did some cable comparisons for the saturn using his Sony Bravia 40 inch S-Series, first used an s-video cable to play Soukyugurentai, no pixelation suprisingly sharp, then we immediately switched to RGB and the picture was worse in the sence there was quite a lot of pixelation. The same with the Dreamcast playing Guilty Gear, looked almost 480p, tahn using an RGB cable. Both systems were Japanese and were original RGB cables for Japanese systems.
I have heard of many occasions of an s-video cable outputting a slightly better picture to RGB.

Out of personal interest what was the device someone previously mentioned to upscale or improve the quality of a Laserdisc player?