Shock Box Insert Printing Service - New info, $3 each.

loopyeddie · Dec 9, 2005

After setting up my site, I have been getting a bunch of requests from members and nonmembers to sell them inserts. I have always told them that they are free and they can print them themselves. Most people know this, they just don't want to bother with it. They would rather pay and have it shipped to them.

This kind of creates a gray area for me. I have been printing inserts at cost for Boog because he is unable to do it himself. I know it is illegal, immoral, and shady to sell inserts, but what about just selling the service of printing them?

If I totally explained how you could make them yourself but still offered a service for a cost where I would print them and ship them for convenience? Would this still be frowned upon? Would it get me into all kinds of trouble?

loopyeddie · Dec 9, 2005

Oh, I would also cut them out of course. Remember I would be selling the service, not the inserts. It may still be inappropriate in some people's opinions.

hermegildo · Dec 9, 2005

I see no problem in doing that if the inserts are your own, but I'd ask permission from Cver, le geek, Big Bear, etc, if you plan on selling theirs.

It is a gray area though and if one person starts doing it then I don't see what will stop others from doing the same. The shockbox scene will probably turn pretty ugly by then, things like this always do when money or profit is involved.

loopyeddie · Dec 9, 2005

hermegildo said:
I see no problem in doing that if the inserts are your own, but I'd ask permission from Cver, le geek, Big Bear, etc, if you plan on selling theirs.

It is a gray area though and if one person starts doing it then I don't see what will stop others from doing the same. The shockbox scene will probably turn pretty ugly by then, things like this always do when money or profit is involved.

I agree with you, mostly. It would be nice to ask permission of the designers before I printed the inserts, but technically they aren't their's either. I talked to my dad about this, as he owns a graphic design studio (and no, I didn't get any talent from him, shucks!). All of the artwork no matter how much it is chopped up and reworked is the property of the original owner (SNK, SNKP, etc.). And since I wouldn't be selling the inserts, just the service, there would be no reason to ask permission. The art isn't mine or theirs to sell.

See what I mean about gray area? But you are right, there would be nothing stopping others from doing it, just as there is nothing stopping each collector from doing it themselves. I can see how things could get ugly however, and would really like to avoid that. I feel I have a good standing here at n-g.com, and I would like to keep it that way. I know I already stirred things up by hosting everybody's inserts on my site to begin with. It almost killed my site. I don't want that to happen again.

zapatistab · Dec 9, 2005

I agree with hermegildo, as long as the other insert makers approve, then I say it's ok. I think members should keep some sort of honor system, and only buy from Cver, le geek, Big Bear, or loopyeddie. If any other members try to sell them, then buyers should ignore them.

loopyeddie · Dec 9, 2005

The more I think about this, the more it looks like it is going to get ugly. This is pretty much the same as burning CDs for people as a service, and I think most people would agree that you could get in shit loads of trouble with that.

Unless somebody comes up with some serious defense, I don't see this working out.

As far as the creator selling the inserts they made, that isn't really right either as I mentioned above. You can't chop up someone else's art, be it a insert or a painting and sell it as your own. These inserts are not the property of NeoCverA, le geek, BIG BEAR, myself, or anyone but the original owner (usually SNK). And as far as the service goes, I'm sure that is illegal too.

hermegildo · Dec 10, 2005

loopyeddie said:
All of the artwork no matter how much it is chopped up and reworked is the property of the original owner (SNK, SNKP, etc.).

You're absolutely right with that, I hadn't thought about it.

Still, if the big-time insert makers give you permission to do it, I see no problem in keeping it as a word of mouth thing. The moment you start advertising it on your site or something, is the moment it becomes a business and that's when things will start getting complicated.

El Capitan · Dec 10, 2005

Legally, this sounds like selling bootleg games and saying "I'm only selling the eproms and the service"

I'm not sure what the legality is tho - would it be illegal to make a KOF wallpaper (a Jpeg) and then charge £1 for it? Are you making the £1 from the SNK images or from your labour?

There was a guy before who said the print shop refused to print his inserts cos they were copyrite images.

I think you are unlikely to be found out, and the most that would happen is you would told to stop.

BIG BEAR · Dec 10, 2005

As long as it's not AES reprints, it's not a big deal imo. You're not printing out anything that can be used to deceive others in the resale of a commercial product currently sold on the US market.
Printing out a ShockBox insert is very low on the "grey area" totem pole imo.
This project has been around since 2001 & the only problem reported is that some Kinko's outlets across the country have refused to printout the works for no comprehensive reason.
The original artists don't complain because they usually sell the rights of their works to the companies that commission them to create it.
SNKP abandoned Neo Geo.....
Nobody's being hurt from offering a service to printout ShockBox inserts. It's only a matter of if you want to do it or not.
I'm sure your Printing Center wouldn't mind the revenue.
-BB

loopyeddie · Dec 10, 2005

Good point, BIG BEAR. Thanks

le geek · Dec 10, 2005

Yeah doesn't bother me, as long as you don't sell them on eBay like the big tymerz! :kekeke:

Cheers,
Ben

loopyeddie · Dec 10, 2005

le geek said:
Yeah doesn't bother me, as long as you don't sell them on eBay like the big tymerz!

Cheers,
Ben

Trust me. That isn't going to happen! Damn, I don't think I'm going to have time for this.

daybona · Dec 10, 2005

Just charge the printing fees.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Its not like you're twisting anyones arm to use your service.

ki_atsushi · Dec 10, 2005

I've always been wondering if someone would do a printing service for me. I've printed about six inserts, all with varying results (off-sizes, colors too dark/light, etc.)

Now I'm just too busy to do it myself anymore, and Kinko's even called my house and tried to get in contact with me the last time, probably to tell me to stop having them printed like some of the other members have mentioned. I don't know for sure what the call was about because I wasn't home at the time and the Kinko's rep said she'd call back and never did.

Anyways, to make a long story short, it would be cool if you would do a printing service for us, Eddie. It looks like you have the blessing of some of the major insert makers, and as long as you're only charging for the service and not the inserts themselves, I don't see a problem with it. Trust me, I'd have you print me about 15 inserts if you would!

BTW, if you do decide to do this, how much would you charge?

OmegaSaber · Dec 14, 2005

I thought about offering something like this as well, since I have access to the graphic design studio at school. I couldn't really think of any problems with it other than the ones mentioned and what if they didn't meet people's expectations / varied results (I know if I didn't know better I'd expect flawless inserts), different papers - some people may want really nice stuff, while others wouldn't care, and just what do you charge for time spent doing it? I don't know how your father's printers work but the ones at school took approximately 3 minutes each to process the files themselves and finally print. Now if someone wants 10-15 inserts you're looking at a fairly nice chunk of time even if you get them going one after another. Then of course you gotta factor in if one comes out with a flaw (sometimes little things happen) and you gotta go back and reprint it.

Basically it's a lot of little things that would make me apprehensive about it. It's a nice thought, but in the end it sounds like a big headache.

loopyeddie · Dec 14, 2005

OmegaSaber said:
I thought about offering something like this as well, since I have access to the graphic design studio at school. I couldn't really think of any problems with it other than the ones mentioned and what if they didn't meet people's expectations / varied results (I know if I didn't know better I'd expect flawless inserts), different papers - some people may want really nice stuff, while others wouldn't care, and just what do you charge for time spent doing it? I don't know how your father's printers work but the ones at school took approximately 3 minutes each to process the files themselves and finally print. Now if someone wants 10-15 inserts you're looking at a fairly nice chunk of time even if you get them going one after another. Then of course you gotta factor in if one comes out with a flaw (sometimes little things happen) and you gotta go back and reprint it.

Basically it's a lot of little things that would make me apprehensive about it. It's a nice thought, but in the end it sounds like a big headache.

I don't mind doing them. I don't use my dad's studio, I just go to Kinko's. The more I think about it though, the more it sounds like a bad idea.

El Capitan · Dec 14, 2005

Just found a colour A3 laser where I work - if the inserts didn't take so damn long to send to the printer, I'd probably offer the service to some of the UK guys here I know.

Each pdf, even if it's just a 3mb download goes to about 20mb when you send it to the printer, and it's taking forever!

still, i do have some really nice prints now

OmegaSaber · Dec 15, 2005

El Capitan said:
Just found a colour A3 laser where I work - if the inserts didn't take so damn long to send to the printer, I'd probably offer the service to some of the UK guys here I know.

Each pdf, even if it's just a 3mb download goes to about 20mb when you send it to the printer, and it's taking forever!

still, i do have some really nice prints now

Yeah, when I sent some they went up to like 40 or 50mb! I was just lucky no one else was printing in the studio.

Lagduf · Dec 15, 2005

I honestly don't think it would be worth your time if you weren't making at least some kind of profit for the service aspect of it. I mean lets face it, your time is worth money, and i think you should charge for printing cost + a small fee for your time. Still its a gray area. That said, if you were to do this i'd get a few inserts made

SoloFenris · Dec 16, 2005

I don't know if you were around when Nick was or not but he listed a printing faq on his site. This is one of the reasons he didn't do prints for other people:

Taken from:http://nickthfury.cjb.net/

"And if I sold them at cost, all it would take is for the post office to
mangle one, and then I would be obligated to replace the print. Without
selling for a profit, I cannot recoup my printing costs. That adds up if
I wind up filling the many requests that I have received via Email.
Thanks, but no thanks."

If I were you, I wouldn't bother.

Jeff

Konig · Dec 16, 2005

I didn't have any issues at Kinkos...I was waiting for them to say something though. I made 3 trips...about 30 inserts...no issues.

I don't see anything wrong with what you're saying. I sold a few MVS games with pro-printed inserts on ebay.... I just made sure to list the insert as a free extra.
Since thats what it was anyhow... its not like they are worth something outside of the printing fee.

loopyeddie · Dec 16, 2005

I've got a lead on getting these really cheap. Maybe $3 a copy, printed and cut. Then just pay shipping which is cheap if you get a few at once. WOuld this interest anyone?

le geek · Dec 16, 2005

loopyeddie said:
I've got a lead on getting these really cheap. Maybe $3 a copy, printed and cut. Then just pay shipping which is cheap if you get a few at once. WOuld this interest anyone?

Yeah that sounds pretty cool actually

Lagduf · Dec 16, 2005

loopyeddie said:
I've got a lead on getting these really cheap. Maybe $3 a copy, printed and cut. Then just pay shipping which is cheap if you get a few at once. WOuld this interest anyone?

I would be interested, but again I think you need to charge something for your time. You don't want to get swamped with requests only to see nothing.

loopyeddie · Dec 17, 2005

Lagduf said:
I would be interested, but again I think you need to charge something for your time. You don't want to get swamped with requests only to see nothing.

That does include labor cost.

Shock Box Insert Printing Service - New info, $3 each.

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