cautionary note (battery related)

ttooddddyy · Nov 29, 2005

A cautionary note, this is a piccy of the NEO-C1 custom chip on my MV1FS.

This board looked and worked well 18 months ago, I put it into storage and left the NiCd installed, subsequently its leaked and corroded the NEO-1C pins.

From now on Im removing the batteries when storing these boards.

Gummy Bear · Nov 29, 2005

ttooddddyy said:
A cautionary note, this is a piccy of the NEO-C1 custom chip on my MV1FS.

This board looked and worked well 18 months ago, I put it into storage and left the NiCd installed, subsequently its leaked and corroded the NEO-1C pins.

From now on Im removing the batteries when storing these boards.

Oooyah!!

That's pretty nasty, mate.
I've aways had a phobia of leaky batteries: be it on a board, in a cartridge... whatever. I hate the risk.

Hence the layout of the MVS Briefcase.

Spot the battery:

Miles away from the board.

MKL · Nov 29, 2005

Sorry to hear that toddy... Was it the original battery? It doesn't sound like a good idea to keep a 10-15yo battery on-board. I don't think this would have happened with a new battery.

Gummy Bear · Nov 29, 2005

Keep the batteries where you can see them, mate.
That's what I say.

You never know what they're doing.

That is really sour though, mate.
I take it the board no longer works...

ttooddddyy · Nov 29, 2005

MKL said:
Sorry to hear that toddy... Was it the original battery? It doesn't sound like a good idea to keep a 10-15yo battery on-board. I don't think this would have happened with a new battery.

It was the original and it looked in good shape, I should have known better.

SpamYouToDeath · Nov 29, 2005

Batteries, as said in a couple recent threads (mine included) seem to be the indirect cause of most of the cart recognition probs on 4-slots, too.
Hence why my board has the battery mounted sticking away from the board, off the edge. I already had to do one repair from corrosion.

MKL · Nov 29, 2005

Remote battery is a good idea if the board is kept in a cab but is not an option in case of a consolized unit...

Gummy Bear · Nov 29, 2005

MKL said:
Remote battery is a good idea if the board is kept in a cab but is not an option in case of a consolized unit...

Depends on how you consolize it, mate.

MKL · Nov 29, 2005

Gummy Bear said:
Depends on how you consolize it, mate.

exactly

SpamYouToDeath · Nov 29, 2005

MKL said:
exactly

I'd have agreed with you, if not for the rolling eyes. What's there to be sarcastic about? If you're consolizig something in a way like Ben Heck did, then you've got room in the case to mount the battery seperate from the board. If you're doing a "put it on a board and mount a video encoder behind the cart slot" conversion, then you won't.

MKL · Nov 29, 2005

SpamYouToDeath said:
I'd have agreed with you, if not for the rolling eyes. What's there to be sarcastic about? If you're consolizig something in a way like Ben Heck did, then you've got room in the case to mount the battery seperate from the board. If you're doing a "put it on a board and mount a video encoder behind the cart slot" conversion, then you won't.

Well, above I said "consolized unit" which is admittedly too generic a term, considering the wide variety of MVS motherboards and the various possibilities that they offer when it comes to consolizing them. If a mobo, notably one of the smaller 1-slots, is housed in a custom case it does make perfect sense to relocate that battery as far away from the board as possible since everything is hidden by the case. But when I replied to Gummy Bear I somehow had multi-slots in mind, probably because he has a consolized 6-slot. Anyway, with multi-slots what can you do? If the battery is kept on-board, even if in a different place, you don't solve anything: leakage can still reach the PCB and cause damage. if you put the battery away from the board and therefore in plain sight with wires, it sucks aesthetically... Gummy Bear apparently doesn't mind to have ugly wires in plain sight (if you've seen his 6-slot) but for me (and not only me) that's a big no-no, hence the rolleyes... satisfied?

ttooddddyy · Nov 29, 2005

Gummy Bear said:
That is really sour though, mate.
I take it the board no longer works...

It shows a blue screen with weird graphics.

At least it was not one of the six slots. The 1FS board I got as a freeby (couple of faullty 43256 rams) so that takes the sting out of it I guess.

Gummy Bear · Nov 30, 2005

MKL said:
Gummy Bear apparently doesn't mind to have ugly wires in plain sight (if you've seen his 6-slot) but for me (and not only me) that's a big no-no, hence the rolleyes... satisfied?

So basically you responded to a perfectly reasonable suggestion that you CAN have remote batteries on a consolized unit by lashing out at a system which took me a great deal of time and effort (and money) to complete.

Thanks for that.

Sorry you don't like it, mate.
If you read the thread about it though, you'll find my reasoning for leaving the hideous looms sticking out the sides.

MKL · Nov 30, 2005

Gummy Bear said:
So basically you responded to a perfectly reasonable suggestion that you CAN have remote batteries on a consolized unit

Many things can be done but they may not be good ideas.

Gummy Bear said:
by lashing out at a system which took me a great deal of time and effort (and money) to complete. Thanks for that. Sorry you don't like it, mate.

And I'm sorry you were offended but I was asked to elaborate on the rolleyes thing and had to be explicit. On the other hand what's the utility of posting projects if all you get are comments like "sweet" or "great job". Doesn't constructive criticism help to make progress, improve things, get better?

Gummy Bear said:
If you read the thread about it though, you'll find my reasoning for leaving the hideous looms sticking out the sides.

I know, that's for being able to take the unit apart so you can clean it, repair it, replace the unibios, etc. Yup, this is a big problem with 2-layer boards (4- and 6-slots) because when you have wires running from the bottom board to the top/cover and don't want them to be visible on the outside, thus ruining the look of the whole unit, you need to have them somehow pass through the upper board and as a result the unit cannot be taken apart anymore, that is without breaking or desoldering wires. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that such consolized units still have the same old unibios version they came with...

But I solved the problem altogether: units perfectly demountable as if they weren't consolized at all and no wires in sight. Will show how to do it in a future thread where you are welcome to express your criticism

channelmaniac · Nov 30, 2005

Well, when NiCd batteries start leaking... you get these strange blue crystal corrosion crap things all over the batteries & everything wired to them... Back in my old Radio Shack days, we'd see cordless phone batteries go bad and that corrosion would travel down the wires and still screw up the circuit boards... So keep an eye on any NiCd batteries, even if they are mounted off the board...

RJ

Gummy Bear · Nov 30, 2005

MKL said:
Many things can be done but they may not be good ideas.

And I'm sorry you were offended but I was asked to elaborate on the rolleyes thing and had to be explicit. On the other hand what's the utility of posting projects if all you get are comments like "sweet" or "great job". Doesn't constructive criticism help to make progress, improve things, get better?

I know, that's for being able to take the unit apart so you can clean it, repair it, replace the unibios, etc. Yup, this is a big problem with 2-layer boards (4- and 6-slots) because when you have wires running from the bottom board to the top/cover and don't want them to be visible on the outside, thus ruining the look of the whole unit, you need to have them somehow pass through the upper board and as a result the unit cannot be taken apart anymore, that is without breaking or desoldering wires. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that such consolized units still have the same old unibios version they came with...

But I solved the problem altogether: units perfectly demountable as if they weren't consolized at all and no wires in sight. Will show how to do it in a future thread where you are welcome to express your criticism

Haha!

I'm all for constructive criticism, mate.
You just have to be careful how you word it so that people don't flare up (I'm awful touchy when I think someone's slagging-off my work).
You have to bear in mind that if someone's spent days and days on a project, they probably aren't going to welcome the sight of - :rolleyes:

I'll be interested to see your innovative new methods.
Is this something you've completed ar are you in the process of doing it now?

Gummy Bear · Nov 30, 2005

channelmaniac said:
Well, when NiCd batteries start leaking... you get these strange blue crystal corrosion crap things all over the batteries & everything wired to them... Back in my old Radio Shack days, we'd see cordless phone batteries go bad and that corrosion would travel down the wires and still screw up the circuit boards... So keep an eye on any NiCd batteries, even if they are mounted off the board...

RJ

Really? I've never heard of that.
I use long wires and they almost invariably have a soldered joint somewhere down the line.

Gummy Bear · Nov 30, 2005

ttooddddyy said:
It shows a blue screen with weird graphics.

At least it was not one of the six slots. The 1FS board I got as a freeby (couple of faullty 43256 rams) so that takes the sting out of it I guess.

Are your 6-slots still using the original batteries?

Might be time for a little mod, if so.

NGT · Nov 30, 2005

you can slide the wires for the battery through various components to get it from the bottom to the top without going around the side of the board. Just look for them They are usually on whatever plugs go around the edges. Sometimes it's a bitch to get them through, but you can do it. I still don't know if that would help on a 4-6 slot with getting the battery to not be out in the open or near anything it could leak on, but there are paths to get wires through.

channelmaniac · Nov 30, 2005

Gummy Bear said:
Really? I've never heard of that.
I use long wires and they almost invariably have a soldered joint somewhere down the line.

Yup... it's a strange sight to see blue crap all over the plug-in connector and all over the corner of the circuit board...

I wonder if it would be easier to remove the NiCd batteries and modify the circuit to remove the charging voltage to the battery and use a solder-in type or a socket and plug-in type of 3.6v Lithium battery like they used to use in the old Macintosh computers... Hmmmm... Those things never leaked and I mean NEVER. I used to work at a grey-market Apple repair shop doing component level repairs and never had a board come in with a leaky battery - Dead ones, yes... but no leaks.

Removing those NiCd batteries and modifying the circuits so Alkaline or Lithium batteries could be used are popular modification on old arcade games, especially Midway games. They were notorious for NiCd corrosion damage.

As for that damaged board of ttooddddyy's, I'd be curious to see if the chip could be removed, the pads cleaned up, and if the chip could be replaced. I doubt the chip could be cleaned/retinned as the corrosion probably went up into the chip's innards.

RJ

Gummy Bear · Nov 30, 2005

I suppose you could always sit the battery in a small tray or something similar.

An uninflated balloon with the hole glued shut. :drool:

As long as it's out of the way (i.e. not visible) you should be able to make it safe and not have to worry about it looking a sod.

MKL · Nov 30, 2005

Gummy Bear said:
Haha!

I'm all for constructive criticism, mate.
You just have to be careful how you word it so that people don't flare up (I'm awful touchy when I think someone's slagging-off my work).
You have to bear in mind that if someone's spent days and days on a project, they probably aren't going to welcome the sight of -

LOL the rolleyes has an incredible power, it never fails to piss people off

Gummy Bear said:
I'll be interested to see your innovative new methods.
Is this something you've completed ar are you in the process of doing it now?

In a few weeks, I still have some stuff to finish.

As for the lithium batteries being more reliable, SNK apparently realized that too since the newer boards use lithium batteries. Actually the NiCd is only used on the MV-1, MV-1F, 6-slot and older 4-slot... But I think the best way to avoid leakage problems with the NiCd type is to just replace the battery often, say every year or two... but now that I think of it, didn't the RoHS directive ban cadmium? Everyone seems to be concerned with lead but I think cadmium is on the list of banned substances too. So perhaps these batteries will no longer be available in Europe in the near future? :annoyed:

TerryMathews · Nov 30, 2005

With the amount of current we're talking about, I think you could just wire in a lithium cell in place of the NiCD - 30mA isn't going to make a lithium explode.

If you really want to be anal about it, a diode in series with the + line would take care of any charging effect.

Only thing with off-the-shelf lithium cells is that getting ahold of the proper socket/holder for them isn't necessairly as easy as walking into RadioShack.

I personally plan on using the lithium cells you see used in SLR cameras, CR123. They're 3V, but if the machine is anything like a Mac, 3V is more than enough to maintain the PRAM.

channelmaniac · Dec 1, 2005

Looking at the Samsung datasheet for the 62256 SRAM, the Vdr (Vcc for data retention) is minimum 2.0v and maximum 5.5v...

RJ

ttooddddyy · Dec 1, 2005

TerryMathews said:
With the amount of current we're talking about, I think you could just wire in a lithium cell in place of the NiCD - 30mA isn't going to make a lithium explode

It should be easy to isolate the charge current limiting circuit if you wished to take this approach (its a 470 ohm resistor and a diode)
Remember the diode will drop 0.6 V so your 3 volt lith is down to 2.4 already

cautionary note (battery related)

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