Oui? Non?

[aria]

Just curious to hear from the French members.

I've been reading about the vote for months, and I was surprised to watch opinion in France (as opposed to Denmark) get so shaky.

Don't feel compelled to respond in English.

[Hmkay]

Win the yes ! Need to the no... To win against the no !
~ Jean Pierre Raffarin

Anyway, the NO won.

[Howdoin]

I am pissed at myself for forgetting to go vote yesterday (yes it was yesterday in the US) - but I would have voted YES... I am sorry to say that most of my dear compatriotes have been FOOLS on this one and they will feel the backlash soon.

[Hmkay]

I am sorry to say that most of my dear compatriotes have been FOOLS on this one and they will feel the backlash soon.
Is it the fact you've spent so much time in the US that made you forget what tolerance and respect of other people's opinion were about ? :spock:

Not that I really care.

[kuk]

Hello

In fact a large part of the french population want a better Europe, with social and politics programs, and not just an economique anbition

personnaly i preffer a little advance than nothing at all (so i voted Yes...)

[Vincere]

Didn't vote.

I'm sure we are about to pay the price for this vote but at the same time, as many countries will vote "No" after us, we could manage to take advantage from this chain.

Anyway, I wasn't totally sure what the Constitution was about so not voting was the least I could do. I didn't want to encourage one side without even knowing the precise meaning of what we were about to sign.

You never sign a contract without understanding every clause.

[Robert]

I would have voted YES for sure. Sadly I didn't get anything from the Egyptian consulate so I couldn't vote.

How can you imagine a real europe without a constitution? It's the base, the texts that will define the common values we share about defense, social issues, economical issues,etc..
By saying no to that, you just put credit on the economical exchange zone schema that many critisize.
Those who supported the NO said that this constitution was not well designed but let me them this: Only a few part of the population has the capacity to fully understand the texts, so how come they vote to rate or not them.

This constitution ( I read the whole text) was not bad and offered many solutions to build a real Europe. If you disagree with that, please quote the article or the part you disagree with and I will be glad to argue with you.

Now, what will be consequence of this? I think that some countries, certainly influenced by the french NO, will also vote against the constitution. The texts will have to be redesigned and we'll certainly have to again (we NEED a constitution so we'll have to accept one in the future). So what is the profit of the operation: losing time, which Europe doesn't have (we have to face big challenges like the Chinese importation policy and if the Europe doesn't speak from one voice, they could take profit from that), and cause tensions and trouble through the european union.

The most annoying point is that the Constitution brought many solutions to critics French had against Europe. For example, the people who will represent each country will no more be administration employees but elected people. Like this we'll have a political europe and no more the administrative europe that so many rejected.
The same for the decision concerning international conflict. The European position during the Last Irakian conflict was a Joke. How do you think that things will be improved if you don't write somewhere the global statement that Europe as toward those issues?


Now let me give you my point of view on the French population. It's a little bit simplistic but like this everybody will get it. France has tremendous assets (more than the other countries think and even more that what French people think) but we have two HUGE defaults:
-We are lazy
-We have a BIG mouth.

So let's take the constitution as an example. We have a big mouth so everybody is giving his opinion on it, even those who can't understand the key points behing this decision (There is nothing wrong in not understanding some tough decisions. I personnally was not able to give my opinion before reading the constitution itself). We are lazy so no one took the time to REALLY read it carefully to have a clear view.

Without a strong U-turn in the population mentality, my country will sink slowly.

France is like the titanic, it's a beautiful boat that is going straight into an iceberg. Some people try to warn the passengers but few listen since they are so focused to keep all their privileges. What is the use in fighting for all those privileges if those privileges will make you sink?

[kuk]

le plus important c'est que l'orchestre continus de jouer...

[Howdoin]

Is it the fact you've spent so much time in the US that made you forget what tolerance and respect of other people's opinion were about ? :spock:

Not that I really care.

I entirely respect other peoples opinion, sorry if this came off differently. I was just expressing the fact that some people in France have been folled into thinking that voting NO would bring lead to better social/economic conditions when it is the reverse.
Unfortunately we (the French) are fast to just on the bandwagon and vote YES or No for completely different reasons than the question that was asked.

Seriously : how many people voted NO becaseu they just were not happy with Jacques Chirac instead of caring for the real issue which was the constituion.

These people thought that voting NO would be a sanction towards the governemnt (and in a way it is) but what they don;t realize is that it is hurting the Country as well by putting it aside from the rest of Europe.

I invite all of you to read this book which is quite amusing and also helping to better understadn the French (even excellent read for French people like me):
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/1402200455/qid=1117468833/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/171-3934591-1477820

[Hmkay]

It's not like we're out of Europe now, anyway... I feel like we're much more into it than the UK, which decided not to adopt euros...

[Howdoin]

It's not like we're out of Europe now, anyway... I feel like we're much more into it than the UK, which decided not to adopt euros...

That is true - but we just took the first step into the same direction.

[Hmkay]

Anyway, saw this (http://lesfilsdeteuhpu.com/fils2teuhpman/Discoursministre.wmv) ? :rolleyes:

[Stephane]

j ai voté oui, helas le non est passé ! ca ma fait le meme coup avec jospin !

[aria]

Thanks for chiming in everyone, as you've all pointed out, this website was against the norm (heh, just like the US presidential election). I read an interesting article that mentioned that the "rich" (as such) voted more "yes" and the less affluent/immigrant population "no". Interesting dynamic.

I admit I was susprised when I heard a few weeks ago that none-other-than France was looking to vote no. Still, I give this consolation: if you didn't vote no, then I bet Denmark or someone else would've.

I think there will be a second draft, hopefully far more streamlined and easier to understand that the previous beast ;) Afterall, how can you streamline Europe if the very governing document has well over 400 articles?

Maybe, and I think likely, this will force the folks in Brussels to do a little better with their explanations to the people.

Thanks again for your input!

[Howdoin]

Anyway, saw this (http://lesfilsdeteuhpu.com/fils2teuhpman/Discoursministre.wmv) ? :rolleyes:

LOL... he needs a serious english crash course.

[Scalpeur]

Seriously : how many people voted NO becaseu they just were not happy with Jacques Chirac instead of caring for the real issue which was the constituion.

These people thought that voting NO would be a sanction towards the governemnt (and in a way it is) but what they don;t realize is that it is hurting the Country as well by putting it aside from the rest of Europe.
That's exactly what I think too.
Many peaple voted "No" only for reasons with no link with the constitution.
From today, when people speak about voting "No" because such a reason I can't say nothing and I really feel angry against these people.

About the consititution, I think it's normal not to win on all the points, but we need a constitution and we have to do with the problems and the differences of all the others countries.

I'm disapointed to say that the "No" won...

[Robert]

@Scalpeur: Salut mon Scalpinou, ca fait plaisir de te voir la.

@Bobak: I think the "rich" Vs "poor" explanation is a little too simplistic. I'd rather put "educated" VS "non educated". If you think about the constitutition, its aim and, most of all, the consequences of voting NO, you'll vote YES without hesitation.

Sadly it seems that many (too many) people can't have this kind of thoughts.

I'm not in France so I can't say how it's lived from the inside but I'm quite sure that even those who defended the NO are embarrased today.

[kuk]

Not necessary, i think a lot people vote No for a better Europe, so they are not specialy embarrased (for the moment may be...)

[deathknight]

Ah, the Dutch where going to vote no anyways so..

A big Europe "superpower" just doesn't seem right to me.
Oh, and in the constitution there was nothing "new", so I doubt there is going to be alot that changes.

[Fist Of Legend]

NO !!! :D

[Hmkay]

I'm quite sure that even those who defended the NO are embarrased today.
I'm not, and I know many other people who aren't either.
Iggy made a nice point about all this at mmcafe, but whatever...

You guys acting like you're right and like you're so sure you know and understand everything that's going on are seriously pathetic. THAT is embarrassing to me...

[Robert]

I'm not, and I know many other people who aren't either.
Iggy made a nice point about all this at mmcafe, but whatever...

You guys acting like you're right and like you're so sure you know and understand everything that's going on are seriously pathetic. THAT is embarrassing to me...

I would be pleased to argue with you about the constitution. If you think I'm wrong on any of my comments, feel free to defend your arguments. Like this, perhaps I'll see the situation with a different angle.

I love political discussion so you're welcome.

[Hmkay]

I love political discussion so you're welcome.
I don't...

But I don't like people who are so full of themselves that they feel like they have the right to claim any opinion different than theirs is just plain wrong... As simple as that.
Especially with politics, where nothing is 100% clear, where a lot of shit happens behind the scene and all, you shouldn't come up with such affirmative statements, as if you were aware of everything and already studied it from all the angles...

I hope you understand what I mean.

[Scalpeur]

I don't...

But I don't like people who are so full of themselves that they feel like they have the right to claim any opinion different than theirs is just plain wrong... As simple as that.
Especially with politics, where nothing is 100% clear, where a lot of shit happens behind the scene and all, you shouldn't come up with such affirmative statements, as if you were aware of everything and already studied it from all the angles...

I hope you understand what I mean.
I think he knows what you mean. But it would be interesting to hear from you about the constitution. As Robert said, you may change his opinion if you put forward valuable arguments.
It's not because he thinks he is right (even if he strongly think he is right) that you can feel embarassed. Politics isn't 100% sure because of all the parameters to take into account. But in politics you have to act even if averything isn't 100% sure.
So discuss with what you know, that's the way things change, that's the way, I'm sure, Robert feels about having a discussion with you about the constitution.
Being sure of oneself doesn't mean you are not open mind.

[Fist Of Legend]

Nous sommes dans la partie française, vous pouvez debattre en français. ;)

[Hmkay]

I'm not really into political debates because I think they're quite boring, so I'll keep it as short as possible...

List of bad points of the European constitution to me:

-Its nature. It's supposed to be something that applies for everyone, yet it's quite confusing, not clear, and out of reach for some people
-Some things in it can't be changed once set... Not flexible enough.
-Too similar to the US government (let's make money, fuck the poors, basically)... Not social enough.

Besides, campaigns against the no were quite stupid and unconvincing. They acted like it was a shameful thing to vote no, like the earth would stop spinning around if the No won etc...

My conclusion: it's just wrong to build something on a doubtful base like that, so I'd rather refuse it despite the fact it may mean slowing down our progression and staying a bit behind.

[Robert]

Ok sorry guys for the delay. I'm glad Hmkay has brought some arguments. Here's my opinion.



-Its nature. It's supposed to be something that applies for everyone, yet it's quite confusing, not clear, and out of reach for some people


I would rather say that it's tough. I don't know if you see the difference. Taking one by one, the articles are understandable but it's their huge amount that makes the read difficult as a whole. But the constitution can't be a simple text, by the amount of things it has to take in account.
I agree that it's out of range for many people (and it makes me wonder why they made a referendum) but let me ask this question: Why does people give their opinion about something they don't understand? They could have voted blank.



-Some things in it can't be changed once set... Not flexible enough.


If you read the constitution of every country, you'll notice that some parts can't be changed to secure the unity of the country in itself. We are now in the process of building a real europe so we need to secure it by settling some statements.



-Too similar to the US government (let's make money, fuck the poors, basically)... Not social enough.


I didn't feel it this way but since I haven't read every articles, I could have missed a point. Please could you give us more precise details?
I would like to add something about the the fact that it's not social enough. I have noticed recently through articles that the right wing grows in many european countries so what tell you that the next one will be more social. Perhaps that by saying NO today, you give ways to a more liberal one in a near future.



Besides, campaigns against the no were quite stupid and unconvincing. They acted like it was a shameful thing to vote no, like the earth would stop spinning around if the No won etc..


I totally agree with you that threatening was a mistake. It doesn't explain anything and add to the fear of the constitution. But you can't say it had no effect on France or even on Europe. The euro and many french groups' shares are dropping in Value which shows the lack of confidence in France and Europe.
We try to convince the world that Europe can be an alternative to the USA. Now how do you want the other countries to take us seriously?
Here is a concrete proof. China, since the vote, as increased its fabrics ratio to Europe, taking profit of the europe's lack of unity. If in one year some textile companies close their doors, you can't say that it's not linked with the NO.

[kuk]

en fait la constitution defendais a la fois le libre échange, et defndais la notion de protection social, et de service publique
cette constitution faisait un peu le grand écart pour arriver a reunir tout le monde. Elle avait surtout le tres garnd avatange de crée un socle pour crée quelque chose APRES
Un projet libéral ou sociale etait possible avec cette constitution
mais c'est un projet qu'on faisait apres ça
Maintenant le projet Européen est en panne

[Robert]

en fait la constitution defendais a la fois le libre échange, et defndais la notion de protection social, et de service publique
cette constitution faisait un peu le grand écart pour arriver a reunir tout le monde. Elle avait surtout le tres garnd avatange de crée un socle pour crée quelque chose APRES
Un projet libéral ou sociale etait possible avec cette constitution
mais c'est un projet qu'on faisait apres ça
Maintenant le projet Européen est en panne

dommage pour ceux qui ne peuvent pas lire le français mais tu résumes très justement la situation.

[kuk]

Sorry for the people who can speak french, but i can not say all what i have on one's mind in english :crying: