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View Full Version : The MVS Bootleg Forensic Thread



Ely13
05-21-2005, 01:54 PM
I know there have been many, many, many posts on this subject, and I did my best abusing the search, reading all the replies, looking at the links provided, etc.

I just received 19 MVS carts the other day and I want to spend time checking if any of the carts are boots. It doesn't look like anyone has created a guide to detecting boots so I was hoping to make a list of things I've compiled that people said to check for to see if I'm missing anything and if anyone has things to add:

1) Study all these pictures: http://www.jamma.nl/gallery/bootlegs
2) Boards must be labeled as SNK/Playmore
3) The mask roms should probably be Toshiba or Sharp. The presence of eproms on some carts is not necessarily an indication of a bootleg. SNK chips are custom. If there are proms (i.e., no ngh# embossed on the rom), it is probably a boot. (there will also be other indicators)
4) Soldering job should not be handdone. A few games have a blue capacitor attached to ROM pins (Power Spikes II & Quest of Jongmaster). Also, SVC Chaos has a small weird daughterboard attached to the PROG board.
- Puzzle Bobble has an unique layout.
5) Cross-check the NGH# with the Master List
http://www.neo-geo.com/snk/masterlist.htm
6) EPROMs do not necessarily mean the cart is a boot--SNK may have done last-minute repairs
7) Flash chips definitely indicate a bootleg
8) If PCBs are brown, blue, or gold, it is a bootleg. It is a bootleg if the PCBs are half height or not shaped like a normal MVS PCB (t-shaped).

--Games that are not bootlegs with known oddities--
Power Spikes II - Blue Capacitor
Quest of Jongmaster - Blue Capacitor
SVC Chaos - Small daughterboard thing (anyone have better name for it?)
Puzzle Bobble / Bust-A-Move - NGH # from PB and Power Spikes 2, several EPROM

I think this'll help me catch the more obvious ones, but I was hoping anyone could help add some subtle differences that aren't encompassed by the above. If anyone cares, the seller is Yaton, and the games in question are: Blazing Star, KoF 94/95/96/98/99/01/03, LB 1/2, MS 2/X/4/5, SS 1/2/3/4, and Waku Waku 7. I know he generally doesn't sell boots except by accident, but I also want to learn how to detect MVS boots myself =)

ttooddddyy
05-21-2005, 05:40 PM
3) Chips should be SNK or Toshiba

The mask roms are Toshiba or maybe Sharp in some cases, however you may see eproms on some carts, which is not necessarily an indication of a bootleg.

SNK chips are custom, I have never seen a SNK cart rom IC.
Edit: things may have changed in recent releases ?

If there are proms, ie no ngh# embossed on the rom, it is probably a boot. (there will also be other indicators)

You could almost rename this the neogeo cart bootleg forensic thread :)

dogtoy
05-21-2005, 09:44 PM
About #4, some carts do come with random stuff soldered in. There are several carts that have a blue capacitor attached to ROM pins. Also I know SVC Chaos has a small wierd daughterboard attached to the PROG board.

#6 should be EPROM not EEPROM. As toddy pointed out to me awhile ago in a similar mistake eeprom are not used in carts, except for in carts that save info like progress, options, etc. Think NES Ultima or the original GB version of Donkey Kong. SRAM can also be used instead of EEPROM for storage after power down (via on cart battery). Anyway there aren't any neo carts that do this, there is SRAM that backs up settings on the the mvs board, on aes you need a memory card to save any setup options after power-down. The neo mem card as used on aes or mvs for progress/score saves is pretty much just an SRAM and battery.

Maybe we could work out a solid revised list like the one above, also get a list going of carts with extra stuff soldered in (caps etc.) from snk, also carts with weird rom configs like puzzle bobble or anything wierd in a cart that came that way from snk.

If people want to pm me cart names and what is specifically odd about a cart that has been identified as original I'd be glad to add them here. If we all come together on this to compile the known odd carts list and the quick guide to bootleg ID posted above, sticky it in the forum, and nobody would ever have to post "is this a bootleg?" type posts again!

-DT

--Games that are not bootlegs with known oddities--
Power Spikes II - Blue Capacitor
Quest of Jongmaster - Blue Capacitor
SVC Chaos - Small daughterboard thing (anyone have better name for it?) on PROG board
Puzzle Bobble / Bust-A-Move - NGH # from PB and Power Spikes 2, several EPROM
Samurai Showdown V - 1st run carts have daughterboard chip on PROG board
Metal Slug 3 - Some carts may have a daughterboard thing (looks like a neo-geo pocket cart soldered to a normal mvs board?)

Keep em coming here folks!

Superfamifreak
05-21-2005, 09:52 PM
About #4, some carts do come with random stuff soldered in. There are several carts that have a blue capacitor attached to ROM pins.

Definitly add Power Spikes II & Quest of Jongmaster to that list. Both of mine are legit and have the capacitor.

I've had loads of games off yaton and never yet been lumbered with a boot. Besides, if you do get a boot off him, he'll make it right.

dogtoy
05-21-2005, 10:06 PM
I concur about yaton, most of my collection is from him and i've never gotten one. I'm pretty much confident enough in him now to not even open the carts (well not quite, gotta take at least one peak ;) )

cheers,
-DT

Superfamifreak
05-21-2005, 10:39 PM
I concur about yaton, most of my collection is from him and i've never gotten one. I'm pretty much confident enough in him now to not even open the carts (well not quite, gotta take at least one peak ;) )

cheers,
-DT

Ah, but you have a valid excuse - you need to clean the case :D

dogtoy
05-21-2005, 11:53 PM
More detection guidelines:

If there are any flash chips it will most definitely be a bootleg. PROM probably a boot, but could be a repair (EPROM more likely for repairs).

If the pcb's are brown, blue, or gold it is a bootleg. Also, a bootleg if the boards are half height or not even shaped like a normal mvs pcb (t shaped etc.)

-DT

Ely13
05-22-2005, 12:03 AM
You could almost rename this the neogeo cart bootleg forensic thread :)
Your wish is my command :)

Thank you for all the responses everyone--I've noted what everyone has said and will take it into account once I open up all my carts. On Yaton, I have a hunch he does check for boots now since he told me all my carts are originals and when I asked if he had a few rarer games, he told me had them, albeit as boots (told him I wasn't interested).

If an experienced member here would be interested in creating a master check-off list that'd cover 95%+ of instances, I think it'd be a big assist to the Neo community (and especially to newbs like me).

I've made changes and additions to the original laundry list if anyone wouldn't mind glancing it over.

dogtoy
05-22-2005, 01:23 AM
Looks good! Surely there are more legit carts w/ oddities! Maybe more people will read this over the weekend and inform us.

Regarding #4, you probably don't need to list specific games here if there is going to be a separate list with the known differences.

I do think yaton opens all his carts to check them. That's why he puts in all his auctions something like Original game. Fake label. or Original game and label.

cheers,
-DT

Grinwing
05-22-2005, 01:35 AM
A quick pic guide with what a PROM and Flash chips are would also be helpful for people who have no idea what one chip looks like compared to another. It wouldn't have to be big and would be helpful like the pic showing where the NGH# is located on the chips.

I have a puzzle de pon (jp) that has 033 Fatal Fury numbers on the CHA board. There are no numbers on the two chips on the PROG board. I can get a pic if anyone is interested.

I also have the known PS chips on my Bust A Move cart. Can also get pics of this one if it would help for identifying.

dogtoy
05-22-2005, 01:42 AM
I have a puzzle de pon (jp) that has 033 Fatal Fury numbers on the CHA board. There are no numbers on the two chips on the PROG board. I can get a pic if anyone is interested.

I also have the known PS chips on my Bust A Move cart. Can also get pics of this one if it would help for identifying.

Is 033 the only NGH # in that PDP cart? If there are only PROMs or EPROM and a couple of 033 chips it's definitely a bootleg. Post a pic for us.

Your BAM cart sounds normal (which is pretty bizarre looking in it's own right ;) )

cheers,
-DT

*edit* PROM chips look like the regular mask rom chips and may even have numbers on them(probably not correct NGH#), but are often made of plastic not ceramic as mask roms are. Flash chips are surface mount, not dip like any eprom, mask rom, or prom in an mvs/aes cart. They are RADICALLY different looking, and are most often on risers that adapt them to DIP 40 or 42 so they fit in the rom slots on a Neo cart. Pics of flash boots are on the bootleg pic page at the top of the bootleg id list.

Grinwing
05-22-2005, 02:04 AM
Its an odd one but the soldering looks factory. No burns and no blobs.

Here is a pic of the front side of the boards.
http://images5.theimagehosting.com/Pdp2.jpg

Amano Jacu
05-22-2005, 03:56 AM
Grinwing: from that pic it looks like a bootleg to me.

dogtoy
06-11-2005, 01:23 PM
BUMP!

updated list above (post #3, this thread) to reflect general concensus in Dark Andy's bootleg ROTD and SSV thread that early SSV carts have an odd chip on the PROG board.

I still think we need to get a really good list going here and sticky it in the forum so people don't have to post "is it a boot?" questions!

cheers!
-DT

Superfamifreak
06-11-2005, 01:47 PM
Maybe someone could host a site with pictures of non boot carts of every release? Sure it would take a while to be complete, but then at least there wouldn't be 'Have I got a boot?' threads every day.

Just a suggestion.

Bishamon
06-11-2005, 03:11 PM
I concur about yaton, most of my collection is from him and i've never gotten one. I'm pretty much confident enough in him now to not even open the carts (well not quite, gotta take at least one peak ;) )



They're still worth checking. One out of the five carts I received from Yaton was a boot (SpinMaster), and he confirmed that his other remaining SpinMaster cart is also a boot.

Lashujin
06-11-2005, 07:18 PM
There is a somehwat documented oddity with Metal Slug 3 where some legit copies have the daughterboard thing inside. I had one I bought from Shawn like that and checked it here, the concensus was that it was legit.

dogtoy
02-01-2006, 11:31 PM
Bump for adding metal slug 3 to the list above.

cheers,
-DT

chris1
02-01-2006, 11:41 PM
Boot thread should be stickied..

At least one to keep boot pics and info in..

dogtoy
02-01-2006, 11:58 PM
I've wanted this thread stickied for a long time. I think it would seriously cut down on posts about "is this a bootleg"

Does anyone maintain this http://www.jamma.nl/gallery/bootlegs anymore?


IF not we need a new site that will take bootleg submissions for hosting.

So how about it mods? Someone sticky this?

-DT

SpamYouToDeath
02-02-2006, 01:51 AM
I've got a legit KoF95 (correct boards, original label, etc) with EPROMs for P1, EP1, EP2, SP2, and M1 (M1 has a SNK seal on the window)... it's an awful lot, but every other chip is correct. I suspect that it may be one of those Korean versions or whatever...

Mutation
02-02-2006, 07:06 AM
About the chips with names stamped used, they mainly 're Toshiba, Sharp or Oki.

About the oddities (except V Liner, Jockey Grand Prix and the prototypes) :

- there're revisions of the games which use EP (examples : Samurai Shodown III : 4 EP, Garou : 4 EP, Pochi and Nyaa : EP1...),

- there're revisions of the games with different P's (examples : Metal Slug 3 with 256-PG1, 256-PG2 and Neo-SMA, Metal Slug 3 with 256-PH1 and 256-PH2, Metal Slug 3 with 256-P1, 256-P2 and Neo-SMA...),

- SNK Vs. Capcom SVC Chaos and Samurai Shodown V 're the only games with Neo-HYCS on V1,

- some games 've special names stamped (examples : The King of Fighters 2003, Metal Slug 5 and SNK Vs. Capcom SVC Chaos' names stamped [nearly similar to the AES versions] : 269-C1R to 269-C8R for SNK Vs. Capcom SVC Chaos MVS, 271-C1C to 271-C8C, 271-M1C, 271-P1C to P3 (which has a sticker), 271-V1C and 271-V2C for The King of Fighters 2003 MVS, 268-C1C to 268-C8C, 268-P1CR and 268-P2CR, 268-V1C and 268-V2C for Metal Slug 5 MVS),

- The King of Fighters 2003, Metal Slug 5 and SNK Vs. Capcom SVC Chaos 're the only NeoGeo games adapted in JAMMA PCB but the names stamped 're different than the ones in MVS, see Metal Slug 5 PCB picture :

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8711/ms5pcb13ff.jpg

- The King of Fighters '98 has a smaller chip for P1, see the picture from sgrepository submitted by Eddyiori :

http://www.sgrepository.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10087/kof98.jpg

pellucidity
03-29-2006, 01:04 AM
I've got a legit KoF95 (correct boards, original label, etc) with EPROMs for P1, EP1, EP2, SP2, and M1 (M1 has a SNK seal on the window)... it's an awful lot, but every other chip is correct. I suspect that it may be one of those Korean versions or whatever...

My KOF'95 is the same, all the P's are uncovered EPROMs with colored stripes drawn on them, and S1 and M1 both have silver SNK seals on them. V1 also has a wire coming off of it! That said, all the rest of the chips are mask roms with the correct NGH number on them (some Toshiba, some unbranded).

chris1
03-29-2006, 02:04 AM
Boot thread should be stickied..

At least one to keep boot pics and info in..


Boot thread should be stickied..And we can keep adding info to it..

lachlan
03-29-2006, 02:48 AM
Don't know if this has been added yet, some (or all?) KOF2K3 carts have one EPROM on them (cant remember what chip it was for)
They are still 100% legit if they do have the EPROM.

ki_atsushi
03-29-2006, 03:01 AM
Maybe someone could host a site with pictures of non boot carts of every release? Sure it would take a while to be complete, but then at least there wouldn't be 'Have I got a boot?' threads every day.

Just a suggestion.

This would be awesome. I'm up for it.

Superfamifreak
03-29-2006, 03:25 AM
This would be awesome. I'm up for it.

It was up for a while but after I got out of prison it seemed to disappear :(

chris1
03-29-2006, 06:16 PM
It was up for a while but after I got out of prison it seemed to disappear :(

We need to bug the mods to sticky it.

,,,,.then posts like mine here I will edit with boot info to keep the topic full of boot info.

Cnidarian
04-03-2006, 06:02 PM
Maybe someone could host a site with pictures of non boot carts of every release?
yeah I'm down for this project, if you can get enough people to contribute it might work.

here are some pics of Viewpoint I took a while back

http://img25.exs.cx/img25/1425/viewpointa1.th.jpg (http://img25.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img25&image=viewpointa1.jpg) http://img25.exs.cx/img25/8422/viewpointb1.th.jpg (http://img25.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img25&image=viewpointb1.jpg)

pellucidity
04-04-2006, 11:27 AM
http://neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1898970#post1898970

Just posted in the other thread. I could use my .mac storage to store pics of these boards as well as the marquees, dunno if the someone wants to host the site on a prettier domain.

aria
05-22-2006, 10:33 AM
We need to bug the mods to sticky it.

,,,,.then posts like mine here I will edit with boot info to keep the topic full of boot info.

What thread was it? Now that we have a dedicated boot forum, we could sticky it here.

dannywhac
05-22-2006, 12:45 PM
Hi all,
you're more than welcome to use the site i put up to host the original cart and bootleg/repair etc carts pics:
MVS Cart Recognition Site (http://www.zen96737.zen.co.uk/)
Think the idea of having a proper stickied thread and/or sub-forum for boot recognition is great:) cracking idea!
Not wishing to derail the thread or detract from it, but I'm still after pics of PROG and CHA boards from all types of MVS carts, email them to me at: dannywhac-at-talk21.com (replace the -at- with @ ;) ) - contributors are credited on the image page.
Cheers,
Dan.

DarkHuman
06-07-2006, 05:25 PM
ok, i've gotten boot stuff of ebay(and quickly sent it back) but if the cart is a diffrent color from what's on the neo-geo mvs cart list, it's a boot.

my svc chaos i don't think has a daughter board, let me see.........

BIG BEAR
11-04-2006, 01:51 PM
I just picked up this Puzzle De Pon! to confirm it was legit.
If I have anything to contribute I will do so in the future.
Might I suggest a more attractive water marking though(white text)? :D
BB

SNK-Jorge
03-21-2007, 12:26 AM
if my MOTW does not have a daughter board, is that okay? the rest is legit and it plays great? any problems that could come up in the future? (this is a japanese cart)

Drakon
12-01-2008, 05:47 PM
hey sorry for the bump but I just got a copy of world heroes perfect for my MVS from ebay and I'm trying to determine if it's a bootleg or not. Now my camera is TERRIBLE so I'm going to have to describe the fuzzy pictures you're about to see. Here's the top board

http://www.drakonmusic.com/rare/whp/top%20board.jpg

here's the bottom board

http://www.drakonmusic.com/rare/whp/bottom%20board.jpg

here's some number sticker on the side

http://www.drakonmusic.com/rare/whp/serial%20maybe.jpg

number on the side says just "4865"

the boards are the right shape and right colour and have all the regular snk markings on them so the boards seem fine. Now to the rom chips

if you look at this picture

http://users.skynet.be/modcorp/nomax/misc/neochips.jpg

looking at the markings on the second chip from the top, that's the type of marking on all the chips on these boards. Doesn't say "sharp" or "toshiba" but looks exactly the same as the second one from the top

so anyway I referred to the master list

090 is world heroes perfect

on the top board on the left side the middle one is marked "064" which according to the master list is world heroes 2 jet. The rest of the chips on the top board are market 090

on the bottom board 6 of the chips are marked 064 and the rest are marked 090.

If there's any other information that will help you determine if this is a bootleg don't hesitate to ask me. And thanks for any help

chris1
12-01-2008, 06:01 PM
Looks Legit to me...


I have never saw this game booted either..so your goo to go..

Enjoy that awesome game!!

Drakon
12-01-2008, 06:08 PM
Looks Legit to me...


I have never saw this game booted either..so your goo to go..

Enjoy that awesome game!!

oh I will I love world heroes perfect. So it's normal for it to have rom chips on it from world heroes 2 jet?

Xian Xi
12-01-2008, 06:10 PM
Yup, WHP was more like a revision and not entirely new.

Neo Alec
12-03-2008, 05:31 PM
You're not saying that WHP actually uses a rom from WH2 Jet? I need to check mine. That would be weird.

Xian Xi
12-03-2008, 09:35 PM
Some fatal fury games do the same as well. It's probably a rom with some characters on it that never changed.

Mutation
12-07-2008, 07:18 AM
You're not saying that WHP actually uses a rom from WH2 Jet? I need to check mine. That would be weird.

WHP uses some ROMs from WH Jet, it's confirmed, they 're labelled 064 as in WH Jet cart. Someone posted the pics of WHP boards :


http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8767/pb240060yc3.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8104/pb240059yd6.jpg

I noticed legit MVS carts can use Toshiba, Oki, Fujitsu, Sony or Sharp chips, only these 5 ones on all the carts I opened.

Neo Alec
12-07-2008, 08:06 PM
Wow, some new game. It uses actual roms from the previous one. That's taking it a little far.

Xian Xi
12-07-2008, 08:33 PM
A number of KOF and FF games do the same as well.

Neo Alec
12-08-2008, 12:32 AM
I never knew that. I've always assumed the data had at least been rearranged and slightly altered enough so that it wasn't possible to just use whole roms from previous games. That seems just too lazy to me. We should try to make a list of which games use older games' roms. It would maybe say something about which games in the series are the most updated.

Drakon
12-09-2008, 06:01 PM
okay here's a fun one. I took a chance and bought a cheap neo drift out cart from yaton (mr. y-plus technologoes). Came to 50$ canadian. So it arrived today. The label on the cart just says "drift out". The label is on upside down and has no serial number lol. So I cracked this baby open and here's what I found

top pcb

http://www.drakonmusic.com/rare/ndo/top%20pcb.jpg

okay...it's a SNK board.....all eeproms.....says 1994 on it.....

bottom board

http://www.drakonmusic.com/rare/ndo/bottom%20pcb.jpg

again....all eeproms.....snk board....says 1997 on it....

so did I somehow get a legit copy or just a nicely made bootleg? There's no signs of hand soldering...but the fact it's 100% eeproms and the label is on upside down is kinda ......weird....and the fact that the top and bottom boards have different dates on them

Xian Xi
12-09-2008, 06:08 PM
From Yaton, if it says "100% working" it's a boot, he puts "original" when it's original.

Drakon
12-09-2008, 06:10 PM
From Yaton, if it says "100% working" it's a boot, he puts "original" when it's original.

still one nicely made boot. This was from the "100% working" section

Neo Alec
12-10-2008, 12:03 PM
It's a boot. The real one shouldn't have all eproms.

Drakon
12-13-2008, 09:26 PM
So today I was playing my neo drift out boot edition on my friends cab. Plays just like the real thing. So yeah....good quality boot.....too bad the real ones cost so much....