KOF 94 was originally intended to be a dream match

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but for a few months I've been wondering about how KOF 94 came to be. After reading this review for Psycho Soldier:

http://www.neogeoforlife.com/nonneoreviews/arcade/psycho_soldier.shtml

Not only was I extremely surprised to see that Athena and Kensou originate from a 1986 arcade game, but now I am nearly convinced that KOF 94 was originally intended as an SNK dream match. Characters from Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury, Ikari Warriors, and now this, Psycho Soldier. Am I missing any series here?

Of course, new characters such as Kyo and Chang were introduced to KOF 94, which really dampers the idea that it's a dream match...however, Capcom Fighting Evolution (ugh..) included a new character from the defunct Capcom Fighting All-Stars Game, and that game is still considered a dream match (albeit, it is only one character instead of a few).

So what are your opinions on the subject? Do you consider KOF 94 to be something of a pseudo-dream match? My arcade never had a KOF game in the 90s, but I'm certain that there were a few people saying "Hells yes, I knew Terry could kick Ryo's pansy ass!"

94 95 96 97 98 99 00 01 02

I guess yes, it is, but .... it seems to have a story? I'm not sure.

k'_127 said:

94 95 96 97 98 99 00 01 02

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Whoa, I've never noticed that before, cool.

What's your definition of "Dream Match"? If you mean a game that mixes characters from other games, then yes, KoF 94 was a Dream Match, as all KoFs are. I don't see why the fact of adding or not some new characters has to do with it

Usually, only 98 and 02 are considered "dream matches" because they have no story by themselves, but the rest of KoFs do (I'm not including Neowave, but that one would also be a "Dream Match"). It is also true they didn't include new characters, all were in previous KoFs.

We could look at it this way: KoF 94 was a "Dream Match" of SNK games and 98 and 02 were "Dream Matches" of only KoF games. NGBC would again be a Dream Match of all SNK games, not only KoF (notice it has new characters too, but who cares).

Anyway if you don't want people to call you "n00b" because you didn't know KoF had characters from other SNK games other than Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting, be sure to check this:

http://www.kof10th.com/english/index.html

And by the way, did you know Geese Howard appeared in AoF2 and Ryo Sakazaky in Fatal Fury Special?

Amano Jacu said:

And by the way, did you know Geese Howard appeared in AoF2 and Ryo Sakazaky in Fatal Fury Special?

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And "Shiranui Mai" in Samurai Shodown...

LoneSage said:

I am nearly convinced that KOF 94 was originally intended as an SNK dream match.

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Yeah. Yeah it was. Check the intro sequence (the Garou and Ryuko teams get the most airtime), and the win quotes when the teams fight each other. (Takuma says something especially screwed up to the Garou team if he wins.) The fact that the women team, psycho soldiers, and Ikari warriors were all playable (last two teams had never been in a fighting game before) means that yes, '94, and by induction, KOF, was intended to be a "dream match" / "all-star" kind of game. But it's also pretty clear SNK was also hoping Japan team would be a big hit, and they were.

I remember reading an interview during the KOF2002 time. the interviwee said they wanted to make a trend so that KOF will have a dream match once every 4 years. they said KOF94 was a DM, then after 3 KOF tournaments, there was a DM (KOF98), and now that another 3 KOFs have passed, they wanted to make another DM.

(That's where I got the trend in my earlier post)

I'm sure that I read that, but I can't tell how trusted the site which I read the interview was. it could also be a bad translation or something.

I thought this was common knowledge

k'_127 said:

I remember reading an interview during the KOF2002 time. the interviwee said they wanted to make a trend so that KOF will have a dream match once every 4 years. they said KOF94 was a DM, then after 3 KOF tournaments, there was a DM (KOF98), and now that another 3 KOFs have passed, they wanted to make another DM.

(That's where I got the trend in my earlier post)

I'm sure that I read that, but I can't tell how trusted the site which I read the interview was. it could also be a bad translation or something.

I thought this was common knowledge

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I think what EX_Andy and Amano are saying (and I agree), is that KOF itself was originally conceived as a "dream" match. The game itself. All the story and continuity and other stuff fans go crazy keeping track of and being anal about, grew into the games later as they became popular.

But as they made the game ('94), it seems clear they didn't have any of that stuff in mind yet, they simply were trying to make a game where characters from all their popular games over the years could meet and fight. AOF2 came out the same year as KOF '94, and in it you can clearly see that the AOF games are tied to the FF games, but happen 10+ years earlier. Why would they contradict that in another game made the same year? Because they didn't think of KOF as a "story" game (at least not at that time), so it didn't (and doesn't) matter.

'94 was not the first King of Fighters Tournament in the SNK storyline.... it's the second game to name itself that, though.

Fatal Fury's full title is Fatal Fury : King of Fighters.

That's the second King of Fighters tournament in SNK's storyline with the first being one held by Geese Howard before that.

So, technically '94 is the third KOF, second KOF "game" and first in the KOF series.

Does that settle anything?

VanillaThunder said:

'94 was not the first King of Fighters Tournament in the SNK storyline.... it's the second game to name itself that, though.

Fatal Fury's full title is Fatal Fury : King of Fighters.

That's the second King of Fighters tournament in SNK's storyline with the first being one held by Geese Howard before that.

So, technically '94 is the third KOF, second KOF "game" and first in the KOF series.

Does that settle anything?

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No, that doesn't settle anything, because we're not talking about the King of Fighters tournament, but the game series.

FF1 is a King of Fighters tournament. So are FF2, RBFF, MotW and even AOF2. You'll notice that in any of the FF games featuring a KOF tournament, no AOF, Ikari, Psycho Soldier, etc., characters appear. And in AOF2, a 26 year-old Geese is the only crossover character.

What I believe that means is that the game KOF borrows the name "King of Fighters" from FF and AOF, but was not meant to be a continuation of those stories.

SouthtownKid said:

No, that doesn't settle anything, because we're not talking about the King of Fighters tournament, but the game series.

FF1 is a King of Fighters tournament. So are FF2, RBFF, MotW and even AOF2. You'll notice that in any of the FF games featuring a KOF tournament, no AOF, Ikari, Psycho Soldier, etc., characters appear. And in AOF2, a 26 year-old Geese is the only crossover character.

What I believe that means is that the game KOF borrows the name "King of Fighters" from FF and AOF, but was not meant to be a continuation of those stories.

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I think you're wrong about this.

If my memory of the storylines is correct, FF is a KOF, but FF2 is not. RBFF never happens (dream, I think)) and AOF2 is not a tournament, but a story with fights in it.

Check the SNK canon guide.. I'm pretty sure I got it right.

Atrophyed said:

And "Shiranui Mai" in Samurai Shodown...

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Yeah, she appears in SS, but as far as I know she is not playable. It's more of a joke due to the fact Gen-An Shiranui is supposed to be from her same clan.

Yes, AoF and FF storylines (and even SS, see above) happen in the same universe, only that AoF is supposed to happen some years before FF (and SS some centuries before). That's why Geese is much younger in AoF2, and even Ryo appears to be older (and much more experienced and powerful) in FFS.
This age factor is just ignored in KoF, but at least they don't mix characters from different centuries like in NGBC (SS, LB), so NGBC is even more of a Dream Match, as actually from its story is more like the videogame characters gain life.

KoF94 was of course intended to mix characters from various game series, but that's what all KoF games are.
All the characters mixed fit together, and are taken from the same universe (think South Town), and the game has a story. If it was truly intended to be a dream match a la SvC or NBC (because it's clearly not similar to '98 or '02), it would also have characters from Samurai Shodown, and they wouldn't have tried to link the game in with the FF storyline, like they did (just watch the intro to 94).

The way I see it, KoF94 could have been intended as a "new era Fatal Fury", taking the tournament from the FF series, using characters from AoS, Psycho Soldier and Ikari Warriors, making teams of 3 characters and calling it the new King of Fighters. But seeing the potential of KoF, SNK made it into an entirely new series.
I'm not good with analyzing a fighter's gameplay, but '94 also seems to play more like the Fatal Fury games than the later KoF games, but I might be wrong. Either way I don't like the way it plays, while I love '96 and on.

VanillaThunder said:

I think you're wrong about this.

If my memory of the storylines is correct, FF is a KOF, but FF2 is not. RBFF never happens (dream, I think)) and AOF2 is not a tournament, but a story with fights in it.

Check the SNK canon guide.. I'm pretty sure I got it right.

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I don't know what a "SNK canon guide" is, but if it's that piece of shit FAQ from gamefaqs (and I think we actually have linked in our FAQ section), it's worse than useless. It's 80% fanfiction.

According to the book, "All About SNK Head-to-Head Fighting Games 1991-2000", FF2 is also a KOF tournament. So is AOF2 and RBFF. RBFF a dream? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that. You might be thinking of RBS. RBFF is not a dream; it's practically the central game in the series, and is referenced in Garou: MotW. In any case, that book is all official information from SNK, rather than some US fan's made up fantasy.

You might have a great memory, but unfortunately, you're remembering lies you've been told.

Sumez said:

KoF94 was of course intended to mix characters from various game series, but that's what all KoF games are.
All the characters mixed fit together, and are taken from the same universe (think South Town), and the game has a story. If it was truly intended to be a dream match a la SvC or NBC (because it's clearly not similar to '98 or '02), it would also have characters from Samurai Shodown, and they wouldn't have tried to link the game in with the FF storyline, like they did (just watch the intro to 94).

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Maybe they didn't want to include sword fighting characters in a game about a fist fighting tournament. When they included the Ikari Warriors, they took away their guns. But how many people do you think would have wanted to play Samurai Shodown characters without their swords?

Also, KOF '94 doesn't take place in Southtown, the FF team's stage is in Italy, and the AOF team's stage is in Mexico. And I don't see you explaining why Ryo and Robert are 23 years-old in the game, instead of 37 years-old, as they would be if KOF '94 connected to AOF2. Shit, Takuma would be 63 in 1994...

SouthtownKid said:

I don't know what a "SNK canon guide" is, but if it's that piece of shit FAQ from gamefaqs (and I think we actually have linked in our FAQ section), it's worse than useless. It's 80% fanfiction.

According to the book, "All About SNK Head-to-Head Fighting Games 1991-2000", FF2 is also a KOF tournament. So is AOF2 and RBFF. RBFF a dream? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that. You might be thinking of RBS. RBFF is not a dream; it's practically the central game in the series, and is referenced in Garou: MotW. In any case, that book is all official information from SNK, rather than some US fan's made up fantasy.

You might have a great memory, but unfortunately, you're remembering lies you've been told.

Maybe they didn't want to include sword fighting characters in a game about a fist fighting tournament. When they included the Ikari Warriors, they took away their guns. But how many people do you think would have wanted to play Samurai Shodown characters without their swords?

Also, KOF '94 doesn't take place in Southtown, the FF team's stage is in Italy, and the AOF team's stage is in Mexico. And I don't see you explaining why Ryo and Robert are 23 years-old in the game, instead of 37 years-old, as they would be if KOF '94 connected to AOF2. Shit, Takuma would be 63 in 1994...

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Whoa! Relax, man. Yes, my info came from that guide and a few other spots. It's hard to get good info on SNK storylines in english, you know!

Well, you pantsed me, if you're indeed correct. I'll take your word for it.

Now, someone post an owned picture and cue the incredible hulk's walking away music.

VanillaThunder said:

Whoa! Relax, man. Yes, my info came from that guide and a few other spots. It's hard to get good info on SNK storylines in english, you know!

Well, you pantsed me, if you're indeed correct. I'll take your word for it.

Now, someone post an owned picture and cue the incredible hulk's walking away music.

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yeah, the price of disagreeing with STK is pretty high

VanillaThunder said:

Whoa! Relax, man. Yes, my info came from that guide and a few other spots. It's hard to get good info on SNK storylines in english, you know!

Well, you pantsed me, if you're indeed correct. I'll take your word for it.

Now, someone post an owned picture and cue the incredible hulk's walking away music.

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RAAAAAAUUUGHHH -- don't you turn your back on me, David Banner!!! Maybe it seems like I typed angry...but really not so much angry as curious.

Curious, because I hear a lot of people claim things as facts that contradict what SNK themselves said. So I wonder where they got it from. There's always the chance SNK changed their mind about something later, and if so, I want to know about it. So I try to find the source.

A lot of times, it ends up being a case of 'they heard it from somebody.' But when that's not the case, about 90 times out of 100 (I'm projecting...it hasn't come up quite 100 times yet), it can be traced back to that one full-of-shit FAQ. That guy obviously put so much effort into writing that thing, I guess people assume it must be true.

So any anger you felt, was meant to be directed not at you, but at that FAQ. Please pull up your pants and accept my apology.

And k'_127: do you want to be next? DO YOU?!!

SouthtownKid said:

And k'_127: do you want to be next? DO YOU?!!

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K'_127 WILL BE CUT!

*ahem*

A couple of posts up Amano Jacu wrote that "usually, only 98 and 02 are considered "dream matches" because they have no story by themselves".

I can't speak for '98 as I don't have it, but '02 almost has as much of a story as '94. Before you fight Rugal, there's that sequence with his airship getting shot down, and then there's the generic ending where Rugal blows up and a UN helicopter flies off into the sunset.

Obviously something is going on, storywise, however rudimentary. '94 had a little more story, and the characters had their own endings, but the basic situation is the same between the two games- Rugal needs to GET CUT!

Well, I still think 94 has much more story than 02. And no, "Rugal must be cut!!!111" doesn't count as a story. From the official 10th An. site:

http://www.kof10th.com/english/history/

94:

MAIN STORY
The year, 1994. Once again the invitations to the King of Fighters find their ways to the world's most wicked warriors. But the patron of this little party remains unknown. It cannot be Geese, nor can it be Krauser. So who could they be from...?
Among all the hopes and doubts, the legendary superstars of the fighting world begin to form their mighty teams. What type of battle with these magnificent fighters sure to go down in history show us? The voltage of the fan's excitement reaches a fevered pitch as the tournament finally approaches its beginning.

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Notice that it clearly mentions King of Fighters like a already existing tournament no doubt related to Fatal Fury.

Let's see 98:

This is the last word in the KOFs from '94 to '97. KOF '98 boasts a wealth of characters from past titles, making this a true dream match. It includes the Extra and Advanced Modes, and a basic game system that's a modified version of KOF '97 with improved game balance to accommodate all its fans.

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Clearly no story at all (not even "Main Story" section)

Now 02:

KOF gets back to its roots and returns to 3-on-3 battles. It's a game that aims to reach the top level of the series with the introduction of the new "Quick Emergency Evasion" and "Quick MAX Activation" which allow players to use KOF's Emergency Evasion and MAX activation under a variety of conditions.

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Same as 98.

Amano Jacu said:

Well, I still think 94 has much more story than 02. And no, "Rugal must be cut!!!111" doesn't count as a story.

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Hmm... well you're right about '98 and '02 not having a 'main story' section, but there really isn't much of a story to '94 aside from 'go get Rugal'

If you extract the main points from the '94 'main story' summary that you posted you get:

-it's 1994
-there's a KOF tournament
-no one knows who the patron is
-teams are formed
-the fans are excited

After you get to the boss stage you learn that:

-the boss is Rugal
-you cut him and get an ending

Now I know that in terms of canon, KOF2002 is a dream match, and it never happened as part of the whole KOF story, I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that there's is a story, and it's basically the same one as '94.

If we change one little detail of the '94 summary you posted we get:

MAIN STORY
The year, 2002. Once again the invitations to the King of Fighters find their ways to the world's most wicked warriors. But the patron of this little party remains unknown. It cannot be Geese, nor can it be Krauser. So who could they be from...?
Among all the hopes and doubts, the legendary superstars of the fighting world begin to form their mighty teams. What type of battle with these magnificent fighters sure to go down in history show us? The voltage of the fan's excitement reaches a fevered pitch as the tournament finally approaches its beginning.

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Same thing!

The problem is that you are assuming there is a tournament in 02 (or 98). I agree it could perfectly be, just like in 94, but there's nothing that clearly hints it. Watch 98 and 02 intro. Only the characters appear, and nothing else. In 94, there are invitations being sent, etc.
98 and 02 could just be "dream matches", without a tournament involved. Therefore no story at all. 94 (an even 95 as it is basically the same) had a weak story, but there is one. That very same story could fit 98 and 02 if they wanted too, but they just didn't bother including it, therefore it just doesn't exist.

This discussion isn't really taking us anywhere, it is a matter of opinion anyway.

tsukaesugi said:

Hmm... well you're right about '98 and '02 not having a 'main story' section, but there really isn't much of a story to '94 aside from 'go get Rugal'

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KoF94's endings may not be all too revealing, but story-wise, 94 was/is an important milestone.

The timeline goes like this:

AoF1 -> AoF2 -> FF1 -> FF2 -> KoF94.

A lot of stuff happened between AoF1 and KoF94 and got rolled into the character design and background, as sparse as the story bits in KoF94 may be. The story also gets told without words, e. g. by chara outfits and backgrounds, so if you watch it from this perspective, there's actually a lot of info to be found.

Oh, and I dunno if it has been said already, but KoF94 is no dream match. Story-wise, it was a real tournament held by Rugal Bernstein to find out who's the best. It's the game where the story lines of the Garou and AoF series meet (among others) and the yearly series of (more or less) official tournaments started.

Takumaji said:

KoF94's endings may not be all too revealing, but story-wise, 94 was/is an important milestone.

The timeline goes like this:

AoF1 -> AoF2 -> FF1 -> FF2 -> KoF94.

A lot of stuff happened between AoF1 and KoF94 and got rolled into the character design and background, as sparse as the story bits in KoF94 may be. The story also gets told without words, e. g. by chara outfits and backgrounds, so if you watch it from this perspective, there's actually a lot of info to be found.

Oh, and I dunno if it has been said already, but KoF94 is no dream match. Story-wise, it was a real tournament held by Rugal Bernstein to find out who's the best. It's the game where the story lines of the Garou and AoF series meet (among others) and the yearly series of (more or less) official tournaments started.

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It's not that I think all KOFs are dream matches, it's just my belief that the series was originally conceived not to be taken as seriously as it later became. And that when they started creating full stories for the KOFs, they caused a rift between KOF and the other series (particularly AOF).

Takumaji, you seem like a huge AOF fan, so you've got to notice that a lot of time passes between AOF2 (Geese is 26) and FF1 (geese is almost 40). That's a long time, and if Geese is also older in KOF '96 (42 years-old), how can Ryo, Robert, Yuri, etc., still be kids? The only ways would be if SNK retroactively changed everything, of which there's no evidence or official statement from SNK that I've come across...or, if KOF happens in a different continuity than the other series.

That's what I think KOF is. For comics fans, think DC's 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' or 'Zero Hour'. Superman has always been Clark Kent, but the Superman from before the '80s has many subtle differences to the one after. The Superman now did not know Lex Luthor as a kid, for example. That doesn't mean that suddenly, all those stories from '39-'83 (or whenever Crisis was) didn't happen; we just have a new continuity. I think KOF is a new continuity that incorporates all the story elements from AOF and FF, but in a different way.

One example is Ryo and Robert meeting Kasumi in AOF3 for the first time. Ryo and Robert are a little older in that game. But then they are younger again when she appears in KOF '96, '99, and 2000.

Or think about RBFF. Geese dies at the end...well, obviously we could doubt that, but then they confirm that Geese is dead and that that's when he died, in MotW. But clearly, he's alive in KOF. I don't know that he's ever even been thought to be dead in KOF.

About the canon fact, most of the info seems to comes from the official in-game storyline/endings and a mixture of the KOF Manga, maybe even the Zillion mangas too. That's at least what I think.

Kim Kaphwan said:

About the canon fact, most of the info seems to comes from the official in-game storyline/endings and a mixture of the KOF Manga, maybe even the Zillion mangas too. That's at least what I think.

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But none of the manga (and certainly none of the HK comics, like Zillion) are official. There have been a number of KOF manga in Japan, published by different companies (my favorites being the ones from Gamest Comics), and they all have conflicting stories. They're just stories, not "canon".

And the HK comics are really out there sometimes. I love them (especially loved the HK FF3 comic when it came out), but those guys are making up their own stories based on how they interpret the games.

I think for official story information, you can only count stuff that's come directly from SNK or Playmore. Trying to include stuff from comic creators who are unaffiliated with SNK, is only one step better than trying to include everyone's fan fiction. It would be like trying to include a lot of the wacky things that happened in the Marvel Comics version of Star Wars (especially early on), into the actual movie series.

edit: Just to make clear, I'm not saying any of this should dampen your enjoyment of the mangas/HK comics...I love them, and I never pass one up when I see it. I'm just saying they don't have any affect on "real" (haha) game continuity. But I still enjoy the hell out of them, especially the EXCELLENT mangas by Etsuya Amajishi...AOF, AOF2, Geese Howard Gaiden, Geese in the Dark (all from Gamest Comics)... Any fan of SNK and of comics should try to track these down. They really are great.