So I'm reading the alumni newsletter for my law school and...

I take the time to go through all the "class notes" where they go over what things people in past classes have done (I'm still a student, but we get copies distributed to us). When I read past 1992, tucked away in the middle of this 70 page magazine, I notice this blurb:

"Gregory P. Raymer recently won the 2004 World Series of Poker."

Yes, that's right (my initial reation was like "no fucking way"). Google 'Greg Raymer' and you'll see it was none other than the "Fossil Guy". $5m. I knew this degree would be good for something

I would say he won in spite of the fact he went to your school not because he went there

Bobak said:

I take the time to go through all the "class notes" where they go over what things people in past classes have done (I'm still a student, but we get copies distributed to us). When I read past 1992, tucked away in the middle of this 70 page magazine, I notice this blurb:

"Gregory P. Raymer recently won the 2004 World Series of Poker."

Yes, that's right. Google 'Greg Raymer' and you'll see it was none other than the "Fossil Guy". $5m. I knew this degree would be good for something

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It should've read:

"Pretentious, wildly lucky prick wins WSOP by more luck than good play."

or even..

"Sat at WSOP Tourney of Champions and got schooled by Annie Duke, Phil Hellmuth and Howard Lederer following his miracle win at the WSOP. Got shown that playing marginal hands does not pan out in the long run and his attitude at the table makes him more disliked than Mike "The Mouth" Matusow, which is an accomplishment.."


What a douchebag.. I'd loke to shove those ridiculous glasses up his fat ass, because EVERYBODY and their mother wears them in games now.

At least Moneymaker is a player and actually did it again by finishing 2nd at the commerce casino, proving himself to not be a fluke. Raymer ran through what could be best described as a marginal final table with Dan Harrington being the only good player and he played it well and just ended up on the ass end of a few races.

I can guarantee you that Action Dan will be there again next year and Raymer will be nothing more than a memory.

VanillaThunder said:

It should've read:

"Pretentious, wildly lucky prick wins WSOP by more luck than good play."

or even..

"Sat at WSOP Tourney of Champions and got schooled by Annie Duke, Phil Hellmuth and Howard Lederer following his miracle win at the WSOP. Got shown that playing marginal hands does not pan out in the long run and his attitude at the table makes him more disliked than Mike "The Mouth" Matusow, which is an accomplishment.."


What a douchebag.. I'd loke to shove those ridiculous glasses up his fat ass, because EVERYBODY and their mother wears them in games now.

At least Moneymaker is a player and actually did it again by finishing 2nd at the commerce casino, proving himself to not be a fluke. Raymer ran through what could be best described as a marginal final table with Dan Harrington being the only good player and he played it well and just ended up on the ass end of a few races.

I can guarantee you that Action Dan will be there again next year and Raymer will be nothing more than a memory.

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True, but you only need to win once

Unlike Lederer and Duke (and I'm not counting the minor games)

Actually, there's a section of the LSAT (which never appears in actual classes) called "Games". If you master games you can easily count a deck. I've had friends here who just visit the Indian casinos once a month, play blackjack until they get their rent money, then come home. It's sick really. Several of those top players have law backgrounds. Not surprisingly, the "dishonesty" and risktaking you need for poker seems to come natural for some lawyers.

Bobak said:

True, but you only need to win once

Unlike Lederer and Duke (and I'm not counting the minor games)

Actually, there's a section of the LSAT (which never appears in actual classes) called "Games". If you master games you can easily count a deck. I've had friends here who just visit the Indian casinos once a month, play blackjack until they get their rent money, then come home. It's sick really. Several of those top players have law backgrounds. Not surprisingly, the "dishonesty" and risktaking you need for poker seems to come natural for some lawyers.

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Yeah, I know. I'll own one of those bracelets soon... I start the trek on the last week of Dec at Binions.

Dukes has got 2 or 3, I think.. howard's got a bunch. They're not main event ones, but like Phil Hellmuth said.. winning the main event nowadays is akin to winning the lottery.. win other places where it's mostly skill players and not tourists.. that shows how good of a player you are.

I lived for about 2 years with poker as a second income after college and for about 4 in college, it was my only income outside of bouncing. In fact, my xmas gifts this year were all financed by my online poker account.

Blackjack and any other table games are a waste. The odds even out at the end. No matter what you do, you're going to lose 52% of the time at best. Casinos wouldn't exist if the odds were so beatable.

My favorite quip to people who "make a living" at the casinos, of which I know many and very few are successful in the long run.

"No, I said poker is an honest trade, only fools buck the Tiger's odds, they're all on the house." - Val Kilmer's "Doc Holiday" in "Tombstone".

VanillaThunder said:

Yeah, I know. I'll own one of those bracelets soon... I start the trek on the last week of Dec at Binions.

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I won 300.00 at the trump playing a cash game. I've watched my friend play a couple of 100.00 buy in tourneys but i'm too bitch ass to enter myself

FatGuy said:

I won 300.00 at the trump playing a cash game. I've watched my friend play a couple of 100.00 buy in tourneys but i'm too bitch ass to enter myself

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Which game and what casino? I'm down there freqeuently, you may have played with me.

My advice, play online.. learn how to bet the game in a tourney and then play those assasins in AC. It's cake after you learn patterns in betting and then picking tells and people is gravy.

I did it the other way around, but I've been playing poker since I was a kid. I only really hit my stride when I started to play games where I was forced to observe the action and not just play the cards. Now it's almost machine like and I love it.

Online poker is good because it's like sensory deprivation. It makes you compensate not seeing the players and their tendencies with learning betting patterns and plays that are effective. When you get to real table again and you're good at not giving information away with your body language and the like.. you'll start slicing people up... because you've got your playbook and you can finally see people and how they react.

VanillaThunder said:

Which game and what casino? I'm down there freqeuently, you may have played with me.

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The trump in Indiana, I doubt you were at that one. Indiana is a wasteland only good for their casinos and strip clubs. It was a 5/10 hold 'em game. The bad part about me is if i'm with friends I tend to giggle. My friends know to let me play alone. I just go every now and then to try to get the bad beat. My skills are meh at best I either win big or lose big since I tend to take a lot of chances. I think i've pretty much broken even playing. I get bored and play a lot of hands that I know better. Sometimes the flop is good to you. Once i'm commited to the pot I tend to stick with it even though I know I should fold.

FatGuy said:

The trump in Indiana, I doubt you were at that one. Indiana is a wasteland only good for their casinos and strip clubs. It was a 5/10 hold 'em game. The bad part about me is if i'm with friends I tend to giggle. My friends know to let me play alone. I just go every now and then to try to get the bad beat. My skills are meh at best I either win big or lose big since I tend to take a lot of chances. I think i've pretty much broken even playing. I get bored and play a lot of hands that I know better. Sometimes the flop is good to you. Once i'm commited to the pot I tend to stick with it even though I know I should fold.

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Oh.. I'm an AC cash player and Online tourney player. Which is most people around these parts.

My suggestion is this, above all else.

Go buy and read these books:

Super/System by Doyle Brunson (the bible)
Player Poker Like the Pros by Phil Hellmuth
The Tao of Poker can't remember the author
Secrets of a Winning Poker Player by Doyle Brunson

REad it in spurts, pick and choose what works for you.

Also, learn table odds and pot odds.... that's about the best thing you can do. Your game will get 1000 times better when you master those concepts. Figure out where your hand puts you, where you stand against everyone at the table and whether the implied odds vs. money in the pot are worth the investment.. it'll turn your game around.


That and the only thing that comes close to playing and losing is watching others do it. Watch as much poker on TV as you can (except Celebrity poker AKA Celebrities playing Badly) so you can add more plays and mathematics to your repetoire.

I've been playing for well over 10 years and I still learn new plays, tendencies and patterns everyday, it's a lifetime love.

Bobak said:

Not surprisingly, the "dishonesty" and risktaking you need for poker seems to come natural for some lawyers.

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*waits for obligatory Rounders reference*

IN additon to those books mentioned above (which i also recommend) i'd recommend Mike Caro's Pro Poker tells VHS/DVD. Great series right there for anyone serious about poker.

I actually have the rare original hardcover of Super System, not the easy to find paperback and allthough a bit dated, most of it still holds true today IMO.

Doyle has even said that he wishes he never wrote the book, as it made too many players good since it came out waay back when.

Bobak said:

I take the time to go through all the "class notes" where they go over what things people in past classes have done (I'm still a student, but we get copies distributed to us). When I read past 1992, tucked away in the middle of this 70 page magazine, I notice this blurb:

"Gregory P. Raymer recently won the 2004 World Series of Poker."

Yes, that's right (my initial reation was like "no fucking way"). Google 'Greg Raymer' and you'll see it was none other than the "Fossil Guy". $5m. I knew this degree would be good for something

Click to expand...

It should have said "fat bastard wins WSOP". Between him and Moneymaker, Poker has some obese leaders

Neo Mike said:

IN additon to those books mentioned above (which i also recommend) i'd recommend Mike Caro's Pro Poker tells. Great series right there on VHS/DVD for anyone serious about poker.

I actually have the rare original hardcover of Super System, not the easy to find paperback and allthough a bit dated, most of it still holds true today. Doy;e has even said that he wishes he never wrote the book, as it made too many players good since it came out waay back when.

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Caro's books are great, but he's soooo wildly egotistical. Guy thinks he invented poker.. gets in the way of his knowledge.

Great player, though. That book is good for beginners, but when you start playing at a higher level, most people know what's in that book. I won't lie, though.. the book is great.

I shored my game up a lot after reading that, because I didn't even realize I did some of those things... the biggest of which is the "grab your chips blindly when you have a hand because you're going to raise" which I was terribly guilty of.

Also, as the years go on, and poker gains popularity, the less likely it is a "Pro" will ever win the WSOP again.

This last year was the last year for the WSOP at binions

I was there this year again, and frankly, the venue is just far too small for all the newcomers.

In case you guys didnt know,
Harrah's purchased Binions for the sole purpose of the WSOP. So with the purchase they have the exclusive rights to the WSOP.

This next year, for the first year ever, the WSOP will be held at the RIO (Which is also owned by Harrahs). They built a huuge hall so all the players will play in one room, as opossed to spread throughout the tiny Binions (in hallways, etc). SHould prove interesting...

VanillaThunder said:

Caro's books are great, but he's soooo wildly egotistical. Guy thinks he invented poker.. gets in the way of his knowledge.

Great player, though. That book is good for beginners, but when you start playing at a higher level, most people know what's in that book. I won't lie, though.. the book is great.

I shored my game up a lot after reading that, because I didn't even realize I did some of those things... the biggest of which is the "grab your chips blindly when you have a hand because you're going to raise" which I was terribly guilty of.

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I've never read any of his books. His VHS tapes are what got him on the map since they physically show u the tells, and how to read them.

I find him humorous as well. Strange guy either way you cut it.

VanillaThunder said:

Caro's books are great, but he's soooo wildly egotistical. Guy thinks he invented poker.. gets in the way of his knowledge..

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The player that really gets on my nerves is Phil Helmuth. He's really good but knows it, which i can't stand. On the other side of the coin, I do find him entertaining, his complaints, and banter while talking to himself is comedy gold.

Personally I like Scotty Nguyen, Daniel Negranu (momma's boy, but a good player), Johnny Chan, and Doyle Brunson.

Neo Mike said:

Poker has some obese leaders

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The odds are in my favor!

Neo Mike said:

IN additon to those books mentioned above (which i also recommend) i'd recommend Mike Caro's Pro Poker tells. Great series right there on VHS/DVD for anyone serious about poker.

I actually have the rare original hardcover of Super System, not the easy to find paperback and allthough a bit dated, most of it still holds true today. Doyle has even said that he wishes he never wrote the book, as it made too many players good since it came out waay back when.

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He also gave away a lot of the secrets of the game and how to beat it.

When the Super System fad came and went, people countered with Trap-play and check-raising. (Doyle referred to it as "sandbagging" in SuperSystem) People do this all the time because, I believe, of that FUCKING movie Rounders. I love the movie, but everyone tries to emulate Damon to the point it's ridiculous.

The new fad is quickly becoming the Gus Hansen take-any-two-cards and bet the fuck out of them method.. which is taking skill out of the game and really fucks with the betting.

I'm hoping Daniel Negreanu's style takes off. He's a guy who KNOWS the game and plays it very well... and aggressive. He's not as "colorful" as Hansen, so he isn't as hyped... which is exactly why I think his style is taking hold.


Hansen gets blown out a lot, but you'd never see that on TV because it's not sexy. Negreanu was the player of the year, consistently wins and plays a sharp game.. but you see him on Fox Sports Net and 4am on ESPN2 in the side games at the WSOP. He put up one of the best WSOP's performances of all time this year, but barely got air time. He was a late addition to the Tourney of Champions which is still puzzling.. because you had Annie Duke in there who is by trade, an Omaha Player and Johnny Chan who's more of a high-limit player these days.

The player of the year getting an afterthought?

Strange.. there's a lot more to it, though, from what I've read. I just wish he'd get air time to show people how the game is played and more consitently won with sharp play and a few flyers.. not taking wild shots at a pot and hoping it hits. Aggressive betting does help and I don't want to take away from Hansen's skills because he is spectacular.. but his style works because he's talented and knows the game. Unfortunately, every tourist and wannabe on earth emulates him because he's colorful which kills a lot of side games.

It's the lion vs. the gazelle in those side games. A lion can kill a gazelle easily.. and he takes out the weakest ones, but there's strength in numbers. If you're the lone solid player amongst lousy players, you're going to lose more because someone will take a wild shot and hit a lot more frequently. The weak players herd together to defeat the superior player.

GAMBLING IS BAD

Neo Mike said:

It should have said "fat bastard wins WSOP". Between him and Moneymaker, Poker has some obese leaders

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How else are they going to appear on ESPN?

Oh, and my favorite pro players are Sammy Farha and that crazy "Flying Dutchman" guy.

I don't try to play like either, I just enjoy watching them.

I like the aninated talkers. Especialy that Thai Dude who will bluff and bluff then Make everyone think he's bluffing and have the shit.

Personaly, I don't gamble. Losing as much as $5 makes me so pissed off that I don't want to lay anything else out. I'd rather blow $20 at the arcade. At least going into the arcade, I know I'm going to walk out pennyless.

I used to play a mean game of spades tho. But that's what happens when you have friends that did time in State.

Bobak said:

Oh, and my favorite pro players are Sammy Farha and that crazy "Flying Dutchman" guy.

I don't try to play like either, I just enjoy watching them.

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Ahh, Sammy is a nice choice. Good player. I heard he doesnt even smoke, he just carries that smoke for good luck.

Marcel Ludke is the "Flying Dutchman"

VanillaThunder said:

He also gave away a lot of the secrets of the game and how to beat it.

When the Super System fad came and went, people countered with Trap-play and check-raising. (Doyle referred to it as "sandbagging" in SuperSystem) People do this all the time because, I believe, of that FUCKING movie Rounders. I love the movie, but everyone tries to emulate Damon to the point it's ridiculous.
.

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Agreed, that movie was good, but EVERY noob to poker plays like that. Annoying.

VanillaThunder said:

The new fad is quickly becoming the Gus Hansen take-any-two-cards and bet the fuck out of them method.. which is taking skill out of the game and really fucks with the betting.

I'm hoping Daniel Negreanu's style takes off. He's a guy who KNOWS the game and plays it very well... and aggressive. He's not as "colorful" as Hansen, so he isn't as hyped... which is exactly why I think his style is taking hold.

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I couldnt agree with you more on these 2 points. Our friday night poker game has quickly turned into a bunch of ppl just playing shitty hands. People winning pots with a pair of 2's, etc. What a joke. I'd be embarassed to take it, heh.