W.A.T.A (Warriors Against Talentless Amateurs)

Your site has a nice clean layout. The message board looks easy to use.

I however really disagree with this:

Have you ever been chipped to death by a Ryu player throwing Hadouken fireballs in Street Fighter? Or perhaps there's a player you fight on Tekken who uses nothing but 10-hit combination attacks? Well, those are the people WATA was set up to combat (no pun intended). If you enjoy fighting games, but hate being beaten with cheap tactics, this organisation is for you!

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I come from the school of thought that there is no cheapness in fighting games. If you get creamed by a player throwing fireballs it's probably cause you haven't found a way around it yet. If someone picks an "unfair" character, then you should pick that character too. what do you think?

go to this site and read up on "cheapness" in fighting games.

http://www.sirlin.net/

it has many very well written articles expounding upon rbj's point.

kafuin_gaira said:

go to this site and read up on "cheapness" in fighting games.

http://www.sirlin.net/

it has many very well written articles expounding upon rbj's point.

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Awesome page. I've never seen it before. I think I'm going to stay up all night reading that now. There was an amazing article up at www.shoryuken.com under domination 101 called "cheapness". The link is broken right now, but once it's fixed I'll post it.

yup that's how i originally found the site

it really is a must read, the guy has a way with words and is pretty knowledgeable about game design too.

People who start sites like this:

A> Think they're far better players than they are.
B> Are pissed because they're not good enough to beat traps.
C> Get mad when rank amateurs can dominate them.
D> Really need to get out of the house.
E> Get their asses handed to them when they face off against a truly good players and complain that it's bitch.

my 2 cents.

CHEESE exists. it's irritating and some game systems make it effective, that's bad game design, a balancing problem (see kof2k3 and waking up vs throws, svc for gcfs into throw off any blocked attack for example)

BROKEN games exist. it might be something tiny (see duolon in 2k3 only one character out of a huge roster) but it makes the game unplayable at the highest levels and in competitions, if you have to use that one trick or character to win then the game should be written off and not played.

WHINGERS exist. ppl who thing walk in throws, chip damage and the like are cheap, they should just give up playing competitively and keep it at home with their friends.

beelzebubble said:

my 2 cents.

CHEESE exists. it's irritating and some game systems make it effective, that's bad game design, a balancing problem (see kof2k3 and waking up vs throws, svc for gcfs into throw off any blocked attack for example)

BROKEN games exist. it might be something tiny (see duolon in 2k3 only one character out of a huge roster) but it makes the game unplayable at the highest levels and in competitions, if you have to use that one trick or character to win then the game should be written off and not played.

WHINGERS exist. ppl who thing walk in throws, chip damage and the like are cheap, they should just give up playing competitively and keep it at home with their friends.

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I think you need to separate CHEESE from BROKEN.

If a game is broken, it's broken. Absolutely.

If somebody can't figure out how to get around an assault of fireballs and win.. THEN YOU SUCK AT THE GAME.

That's it.

W.A.T.A.?

We're not talking about ritual Ken-do here but simple 2D fighters.

It's impossible to find a general definition for what is scrubby and what could be considered as "honourable fighting". Sometimes even the most skilled player has to resort to cheesy tactics to save his ass - rule #1 is to win the game, after all.

If you rate stuff like projectile spamming as cheap, your club of white fighting game knights will go nowhere I fear.

VanillaThunder said:

I think you need to separate CHEESE from BROKEN.

If a game is broken, it's broken. Absolutely.

If somebody can't figure out how to get around an assault of fireballs and win.. THEN YOU SUCK AT THE GAME.

That's it.

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i did separate them.

it just happens that both svc and kof2k3 have both in them.

the throw system in 2k3 is cheesy. goro can throw you on wake up unlike virtually every other fighter where youd be able to wakeup throw anyone who just stood there as you woke up. the only way to avoid it that ive seen is to hop as you get up which can mean you eat a hit if they find a way to hit you in the hop.

this lead to half the ppl in the cades playing goro and duo just to abuse this loophole in the system. the reason i call that CHEESE and not BROKEN is becoz choosing a grappler will let you fight fire with fire and it can be avoided by hopping.

RBjakeSpecial said:

I come from the school of thought that there is no cheapness in fighting games. If you get creamed by a player throwing fireballs it's probably cause you haven't found a way around it yet. If someone picks an "unfair" character, then you should pick that character too. what do you think?

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I agree, if you cannot deal with some "cheap" strategies, that is your problem. Playing against broken charas is a different point though.

Have you ever been chipped to death by a Ryu player throwing Hadouken fireballs in Street Fighter?

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Parry -

Mushiki said:

I agree, if you cannot deal with some "cheap" strategies, that is your problem. Playing against broken charas is a different point though.




Parry -

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See.. even I think "broken" characters are just part of the system... learn how to avoid their traps.

I agree though... Parries are the anti cheese.

Mushiki said:

Parry -

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Q's critical combo attack goes through fireballs

FatGuy said:

Q's critical combo attack goes through fireballs

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Twelve evades fireballs while walking

Ok, here's a question.. I want to know if this is cheese.. cause I've heard a few things.

I use dudley. Dudley has an auto-tracking projectile with the Rose taunt.

If I think I'm going to get slammed with a combo, I'll toss it... or I toss it when they're charging or going for a super. It breaks them up and chips a TINY bit of damage... in fact, I finished off board members with it.

Is that cheesy? It auto-tracks and breaks combos, but doesn't do much.

Well?

VanillaThunder said:

Ok, here's a question.. I want to know if this is cheese.. cause I've heard a few things.

I use dudley. Dudley has an auto-tracking projectile with the Rose taunt.

If I think I'm going to get slammed with a combo, I'll toss it... or I toss it when they're charging or going for a super. It breaks them up and chips a TINY bit of damage... in fact, I finished off board members with it.

Is that cheesy? It auto-tracks and breaks combos, but doesn't do much.

Well?

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I see that as style, not cheese.

And the Rose can always be parried as well.

VanillaThunder said:

Ok, here's a question.. I want to know if this is cheese.. cause I've heard a few things.

I use dudley. Dudley has an auto-tracking projectile with the Rose taunt.

If I think I'm going to get slammed with a combo, I'll toss it... or I toss it when they're charging or going for a super. It breaks them up and chips a TINY bit of damage... in fact, I finished off board members with it.

Is that cheesy? It auto-tracks and breaks combos, but doesn't do much.

Well?

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i dont consider that cheese. i havent played much 3rd strike myself but im sure there are ways around that, one is not letting you use that strategy, whether it be by keeping the pressure on, staying within or without that moves range, etc.

sounds similar to when my mate uses mai in rb2, if he gets ppower i know hell use it coz it goes through stuff, has insane priority, cant be crossed up (even though it looks like it can), etc. i learnt (though it took my dumb ass a while) to just sit out his ppower bar, he'd even get impatient at times and attack to try and create an opening at which point i had him.

have you played svc when someone gcfs's every mid/heavy attack you do at any range (within dash range) and throws you? that is all they do, its crazy cheesy. or grapplers in kof2k3 who just run at you every time you are getting up and throw you, especially goro, he comes in close and waits as you get up, he throws you or mixes up by doing a c.HK which knocks you down then starts the whole 2 option mixup game again. play karnovs revenge, use karnov and do his kick move, when you land you have priority over the blocker so spam c.LK or c.LP (cant remember which) then combo after about the 3rd into the kick move again, sure maybe you can get out of it but its bad game balance when something like that becomes a highly effective tactic.

i dont think the 10 hit combos from tekken 2 are cheesy however, they can be interrupted or blocked. i dont think a groove combos (there high low mixup game anyways) from a3 are cheesy, the juggles off them may be broken though (infinites and huge damage).

meh, there is no cheese.

broken games and whiners, yes.

but so called "cheese" is nothing more than a tactic you haven't found a counter for yet.

good players learn to change strategies and adapt to the situation rather than blaming the game for something they are unable to get around.

svc is broken, as everyone can punish even light attacks fairly safely with GCFS.

2k3 is not broken. duolon and grapplers are overpowered, but not unbeatable. it's just a bad 50/50 wakeup game similar to 3s actually. stand there and take the command grab, or jump and get knocked down again.

kafuin_gaira said:

meh, there is no cheese.

broken games and whiners, yes.

but so called "cheese" is nothing more than a tactic you haven't found a counter for yet.

good players learn to change strategies and adapt to the situation rather than blaming the game for something they are unable to get around.

svc is broken, as everyone can punish even light attacks fairly safely with GCFS.

2k3 is not broken. duolon and grapplers are overpowered, but not unbeatable. it's just a bad 50/50 wakeup game similar to 3s actually. stand there and take the command grab, or jump and get knocked down again.

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i see your point but i disagree.

a well designed game has no cheese.

a badly designed game has cheese (something that makes a tactic more effective than common sense dictates or the actual designers intended).

a broken game (terribly designed) is broken and therefore unplayable beyond a intermediate level.

looks like we're pretty much on the same page, minus a few distinctions.

to you, would cable's AHVBx3 in MVC2 be cheese or broken? i'm guessing cheese based on your responses, but please correct me if i'm making assumptions. i'd personally say neither. it is a very easy yet powerful *tactic*. whether it was intended by design to work that way or not is irrelevant. it's quite beatable, as many people have found out.

aside from those terribly designed games, i'd say no amount of testing or balancing will completely prevent "cheese". one argument i've heard several times is that aside from karate champ, no fighter is really balanced because of the diversity of movesets, hitboxes, priority, etc etc etc.

i have no problem admitting many characters have a much easier time winning over others, though i'm not huge on tiering. at least in the us, it seems to be more desirable to xcopy the tournament player's characters and strats rather than innovate with their own style. but now i'm slightly OT.

kafuin_gaira said:

i have no problem admitting many characters have a much easier time winning over others, though i'm not huge on tiering. at least in the us, it seems to be more desirable to xcopy the tournament player's characters and strats rather than innovate with their own style. but now i'm slightly OT.

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Heh.. I just made this comment in chat 2 days ago.

There's very few high level players who are innovative and everyone takes their cues from them. Go to an arcade.. it's like a copy of a copy of a copy of a DVD from Evo.. which isn't that impressive of a competition to begin with.

Yeah, MvC2 play is good, because only we play it and it's cheap.

The SF3 competition there is not that innovative... and it trickles down to the masses where people try to do *that* stuff again. It's terrible. I haven't seen a *good* SFA3 player in ages.. and if they're adequate.. they're the same 3 or 4 different characters/gameplay types. Nothing new.

kafuin_gaira said:

looks like we're pretty much on the same page, minus a few distinctions.

to you, would cable's AHVBx3 in MVC2 be cheese or broken? i'm guessing cheese based on your responses, but please correct me if i'm making assumptions. i'd personally say neither. it is a very easy yet powerful *tactic*. whether it was intended by design to work that way or not is irrelevant. it's quite beatable, as many people have found out.

aside from those terribly designed games, i'd say no amount of testing or balancing will completely prevent "cheese". one argument i've heard several times is that aside from karate champ, no fighter is really balanced because of the diversity of movesets, hitboxes, priority, etc etc etc.

i have no problem admitting many characters have a much easier time winning over others, though i'm not huge on tiering. at least in the us, it seems to be more desirable to xcopy the tournament player's characters and strats rather than innovate with their own style. but now i'm slightly OT.

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ive heard about the ahvb but im not sure of the specifics becoz ive never done anything more than dabble in the game.

the thing is i dont see how there can be a cutoff point which marks one side "well balanced" and the other side "broken". that is where cheese comes in, its the stuff you find in the grey areas between the sought after "well balanced/tourney worthy" and the ridiculed "broken/piece of shit/svc".