Let's break up Iraq into three sovereign nations.

A

AztekNinja

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There are three major ethnic groups in Iraq. The Kurds, Sunnis(sp?) and the Shi'ites(sp?) that dominate the country. I was watching BBC World News yesterday on public television and it said that the kurds want independence. They have at least cooperated pretty damn well with the U.S and have given almost no trouble to the U.S. Yet we are still trying to calm them down about them wanting their independence, I mean damn, just give these people FREEDOM and let them run their own country. Why must we stop a certain group of people from forming their own nation? WHY? Let them from their own country, as a matter of fact let the Sunnis and Shi'ites form theirs as well, lets just give it up and stop forcing three groups that dont get along together to play nice.

Anyone agree with me? Disagree? Please serioulsy debate and post your opinion. Lets keep the hate and flames out of this thread, thank you.
 
Crovax

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I agree with you that keeping the existing territorial boundaries is a joke considering there are three distinct groups that really don't get a long so well. I mean, that's the basis of A LOT of the civil wars in Africa--outmoded colonial boundaries.

I'll also tell you why it'll never happen with voluntary approval of the US. Put simply, breaking Iraq up gives Iran waaaay too much influence in the region. With a strong Iraq, like under Saddam, there was always a sort of balance of power between them.
 
S

striderpunk

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the only problem with that is if you do that you will have border wars raging for the next hundered years. Kind of like with the restructuring of Israel

btw. this is off topic but still notable
The Baath party was formed in Iraq by Nazi Germany.
 
galfordo

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Part of me thinks this would be a great idea, but another part of me realizes that they'll just find some other reason to kill each other. The bottom line is that these people need to learn religious tolerance, otherwise they'll never get along.
 
Crovax

Crovax

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Oh yeah, almost forgot. On the other side of the region, letting an independent Kurdish state exist would just be asking for the much stronger Turkey to sweep in. The Turks have been supressing rebel movements fighting for an independent Kurdish state for most of the last century. One of their biggest fears before this current war was that it might lead to the creation of an independent Kurdish state which would inspire renewed uprisings within Turkey. sounds like another Israel-Palestine conflict in the making to me.
 
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jethrek

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We haven't in part because our ally, Turkey, would invade a Kurdish state if we made one.
 
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CrackerMessiah

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striderpunk said:
btw. this is off topic but still notable
The Baath party was formed in Iraq by Nazi Germany.
Click to expand...

Um, I'm just curious- can you cite a source for this? A link or something? ISBN to some book? I wanna know how they arrived at that conclusion.
 
Vlad

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galfordo said:
Part of me thinks this would be a great idea, but another part of me realizes that they'll just find some other reason to kill each other. The bottom line is that these people need to learn religious tolerance, otherwise they'll never get along.
Click to expand...


The problem it´s not religion
 
J

jethrek

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CrackerMessiah said:
Um, I'm just curious- can you cite a source for this? A link or something? ISBN to some book? I wanna know how they arrived at that conclusion.
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The Ba'ath movement refers to a motto of unity, freedom, and socialism. Unity refers to pan-Arab unity, non-marixist socialism, and freedom from western influence

Funny that.
 
C

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Would you break up a chocolate chip cookie into three separate pieces to be shared between three hungry parties? No, you would not. Chocolate chip cookies are delicious and best eaten whole and unshared.

Iraq is not a cookie.

Perhaps this will work.
 
A

AztekNinja

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Bobak said:
very true.
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I remember hearing about this. Why is Turkey opposed to a independent Kurd state? Can you fill me in on the history of this Turkey vs. Kurds conflict?
 
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jethrek

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AztekNinja said:
I remember hearing about this. Why is Turkey opposed to a independent Kurd state? Can you fill me in on the history of this Turkey vs. Kurds conflict?
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Bobak would do a better job at the long story than me, butfor the short: Turkey is afraid that a Kurdish state would lead to its own large Kurdish population to revolt. At least, that's their side of the story. (or close to it)
 
aria

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AztekNinja said:
I remember hearing about this. Why is Turkey opposed to a independent Kurd state? Can you fill me in on the history of this Turkey vs. Kurds conflict?
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Its a very long backstory.

Let's see if I can summarize it (ah, a challenge):
- Kurds are the largest ethnic group without a country to call their own (30 million)
- they're spread in a crecent over Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran
- the largest chunk are in Turkey
- They want autonomy in their parts of eastern Turkey (near the Iran and Iraq borders with Turkey)
- The Turks, an equally proud and hardheaded people, refuse and have got in armed conflict with the Kurds for decades
- Ever since the US/UK/France (the latter dropped out in the late-90s) established the no-fly-zone to protect the Kurds, the Kurdish people in Northern Iraq have been able to make relatively autonomous provinces. However, they actually split into two groups that did fight each other until shortly before Gulf War II (where they've united).
- Turkey has been very, very unhappy with the Kurdish provinces of Iraq because they're own Kurdish population points at those Kurds and say "why not us" (sometimes with weapons)
- needless to say, a bonafide free Kurdish state next door to the millions of Kurds in Turkey might cause the ones in Turkey to rise in arms and try and merge with their neighbor.

In a nutshell.
 
A

AztekNinja

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Bobak said:
Interesting Info.
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Thanks, Bobak. So why not let the Kurds just break away from Turkey and let them merge with the northern Iraquis? Is it like Russia, where they are just killing people to keep some fucken "natural" borders? Or is it economic, they need the eastern part of their nation cause of certain resources?
 
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jethrek

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AztekNinja said:
Thanks, Bobak. So why not let the Kurds just break away from Turkey and let them merge with the northern Iraquis? Is it like Russia, where they are just killing people to keep some fucken "natural" borders? Or is it economic, they need the eastern part of their nation cause of certain resources?
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What nation cedes land its controlled for a good length of time?
 
aria

aria

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AztekNinja said:
Thanks, Bobak. So why not let the Kurds just break away from Turkey and let them merge with the northern Iraquis? Is it like Russia, where they are just killing people to keep some fucken "natural" borders? Or is it economic, they need the eastern part of their nation cause of certain resources?
Click to expand...

Very few countries would be cool with that idea because nearly every major country has a group of people who want to break away.

UK: Northern Ireland
Spain: Basque Country
France: Corsica
Israel: Palestine
Russia: Hard to pick just one
China: same as Russia
Canada: Quebec
etc...

Even some of the most "rational" countries have "skeletons" they'd rather not see the light of day
 
B

Big Shady

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Well thing with Iraq is that it WAS many nations I think back in the 1700s-1800s, but took it, lumped all the nations together into one territory, viola Iraq was born. Iraq should just break up, I can never see peace between all the peoples there.
 
Curt

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Stinky-Dinkins said:
Would you break up a chocolate chip cookie into three separate pieces to be shared between three hungry parties? No, you would not. Chocolate chip cookies are delicious and best eaten whole and unshared.

Iraq is not a cookie.

Perhaps this will work.
Click to expand...

Dinkins 4 mod.
 
Crovax

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Big Shady said:
Well thing with Iraq is that it WAS many nations I think back in the 1700s-1800s, but took it, lumped all the nations together into one territory, viola Iraq was born. Iraq should just break up, I can never see peace between all the peoples there.
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Not really. From about the 15th century to WWI, the region was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. In terms of the history of the region, the concept of Kurdish nationalism is pretty young (late 19th century), and intensified while the British formed and controlled Iraq from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire after WWI.
 
A

AztekNinja

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Bobak said:
Very few countries would be cool with that idea because nearly every major country has a group of people who want to break away.

UK: Northern Ireland
Spain: Basque Country
France: Corsica
Israel: Palestine
Russia: Hard to pick just one
China: same as Russia
Canada: Quebec
etc...

Even some of the most "rational" countries have "skeletons" they'd rather not see the light of day
Click to expand...

I remember reading about this somewhere a while back. That is why these political boundaries are a fucken joke. Almost all nations have these sections that want to break off of the main nation. Who knows, maybe one day Texas or/and California may want to break off from the union...

Many wars occuring now are because of land disputes. If we all just gave independence to the areas that truly represent a different people maybe we would have a more peacefull world. Have we all forgotten how the U.S was formed? We broke up from the MOST POWERFULL nation at the time, sure we got our nation by force, but we got it. If the people want it badly enough, they will take it by force...just as we have.
 
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